Pan TH-42PHD7UY Black level changing - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Baselworld is only a few weeks away. Getting the latest news is easy, Click Here for info on how to join the Watchuseek.com newsletter list. Follow our team for updates featuring event coverage, new product unveilings, watch industry news & more!


Forum Jump: 
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 449 Old 11-24-2004, 08:05 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
jadolley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 23
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I just received a TH-42PHD7UY from Visual Apex. It looks and works great except for a change in black levels! It happens the most when watching a DVD or "regular" non-HD television, the black letterbox level changes with the materials on screen. Its somewhat annoying but while watching HD-TV OTA on NBC last night, the levels kept changing on 1 scene (which was not going from light to dark but the dark background was flipping from very dark to much lighter every 1 to 2 seconds) during the broadcast, extremely annoying! Is this normal? I have tried to search for a menu function to "turn off" any AGC or black level control, but cannot make this problem any better! My HD tuner is on the Component video and my Sat box is on composite and both have the problem. I have yet to try the S video but I expect it to also be the same. I guess I will have to call VA and see what their take is on this problem.

Jim
jadolley is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 449 Old 11-24-2004, 08:25 AM
Advanced Member
 
thomopolis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Oakland, CA
Posts: 681
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=463550


I'm guessing you are using S-Video at the moment?
thomopolis is offline  
post #3 of 449 Old 11-24-2004, 08:44 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
jadolley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 23
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I have not tried the S video as yet. I have the problem on both composite and component inputs. I am waiting for my HDMI card to try it as well, but Panasonic seems to be a bit slow on the delivery date on the HDMI blades.

I do not have the "blooming" issue noted in the other posts, just an overall change in the black levels, the entire black portion, no banding or streaking.

I will try to see if the settings posted help any.

Jim
jadolley is offline  
post #4 of 449 Old 11-24-2004, 09:47 AM
Member
 
peter_moy13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 168
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Hi,

I have the same panel as you do and saw the exact symptoms when I got it last week.

This seems to happen during a scene where a light object will come into a dark picture (a window or lamp). Once a certain threshold is reached, the entire display will change to black level to accomodate.

I've had other 42" HD users ask me about this issue. My solution so far has been to dial down my picture settings (Cinema mode, picture -15, brightness -7) and use a backlight. Seems to have gotten rid of most of it.

I'm not really sure if this is a defect or just a "feature" of this plasma trying to adjust for the wide range in contrast with certain scenes.

Let me know what VA has to say...

Thanks,
-Pete
peter_moy13 is offline  
post #5 of 449 Old 11-24-2004, 11:05 AM
Senior Member
 
dusty144's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Shawnee, Kansas
Posts: 304
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Peter,

I assume you have the AGC turned off.
dusty144 is offline  
post #6 of 449 Old 11-24-2004, 11:18 AM
Member
 
peter_moy13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 168
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Yup, AGC is turned off. Having it on didn't change much except it made the colors appear overly vivid for some reason.

For me this is a very minor issue once I had the picture and brightness setting calibrated. With full screen HD and no black bars for reference, I don't even notice anything.

Take a look at the bottom of this thread for more info:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=472431
peter_moy13 is offline  
post #7 of 449 Old 11-24-2004, 12:23 PM
Advanced Member
 
robnalex's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 569
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally posted by peter_moy13


I'm not really sure if this is a defect or just a "feature" of this plasma trying to adjust for the wide range in contrast with certain scenes.

Be assured that this is NOT normal. If this is a "feature" it's a very undesireable one. My 50PHD6UY doesn't do this, and I'd be pi$$ed off if it did.

Rob
robnalex is offline  
post #8 of 449 Old 12-09-2004, 11:32 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
jadolley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 23
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Update 12/9/2004

Visual Apex seems to be helpful, but it still does not change the fact that the black levels are changing while watching the plasma. It has rendered my new 42" HD Pany unwatchable. I have tried different cables, inputs, content, all the same results. Its very frustrating. VA is now going to Panasonic with the problem, but I am not holding my breath.

Jim
jadolley is offline  
post #9 of 449 Old 12-09-2004, 01:12 PM
Member
 
nick_622's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 66
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Have you called 800-524-1448 opt.2 and told them about your issues. I have seen the same thing on my PHD7UY, but it is very slight mainly during normal TV broadcasts and very dark scenes. I have everything going through my DVI input.

I already called and logged a complaint .. and they referred me to a Northeast Engineer named Marick @ 201-348-7975. Let's call him and let him know about this problem. I've already left him a VMail.

Nick
nick_622 is offline  
post #10 of 449 Old 12-09-2004, 04:00 PM
Member
 
rlshky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: San Diego
Posts: 59
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Hey Jim, I have the same problem as you over a component input on HDTV and DVDs. I started a thread about it a month ago that can be seen on Jhanson's 7UY problems page called "a little concern about my 7UY". It got taken over and turned into the S Video problem soon after i started it though, so hopefully we can keep this thread about the brightness problem. I just e-mailed visual apex again today and haven't really gotten anything resolved in a month, except that they pass the problem on to Panasonic. Be sure to stay on them about this because there's no way they can expect anyone to accept a TV where the brightness level consistently changes. I too have found that this makes my Panny unwatchable and at the very least frustrating and annoying.
Peter, even if it is just a minor problem for you I hope you aren't going to settle for it especially when it is a $3,500 piece of equipment. Let's all keep the pressure on to get this resolved and post updates here.
rlshky is offline  
post #11 of 449 Old 12-09-2004, 04:17 PM
AVS Special Member
 
jrock65's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,060
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Do other 7UY owners have this issue? Or any 7UY owners that DON"T have this issue?

I'm wondering if it's a manufacturing defect (something wrong with a batch of plasmas), or a design defect (something inherently wrong with all the 7UYs).

Thanks.
jrock65 is offline  
post #12 of 449 Old 12-09-2004, 06:14 PM
Newbie
 
toddmiro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 4
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Thank goodness someone else is seeing this!
I purchased a 42PHD7UY a few weeks ago from VA and love it except for this issue. I was beginning to wonder if I was being too picky for noticing it. It happens on any mostly dark image (Lost and CSI do it constantly) that also has areas of bright white. The black levels clearly jump up and down about 5 IRE or so (don't have a waveform monitor hooked up, but as a video editor I stare at calibrated monitors all day long.) I checked all my settings (especially made sure AGC was off) but nothing helps. It happens from my Comcast cable box (DCT6200) via component, my DVD player via component and my TIVO via SVHS. I haven't been able to test thru DVI as my blade hasn't arrived yet. It happens on SD TV, HDTV and DVD. It seems like the monitor sets an initial black level, then sees the bright white area and accomidates for that by lightening all blacks. It really (to my eyes) seems to be only effecting the black levels- not gamma or white.

One thing I noticed in the manual was this (under Troubleshooting/Maintenance):

"SYMPTOMS: the screen darkens slightly when bright pictures with minimal movements are shown.
CHECK: The screen will darken slightly when photos, still images of a computer or other pictures with minimal movements are shown for an extended period. This is done to reduce after-image on the screen and the shortening of the screen's service life: It is normal abd not indicative of malfunctioning."

Could this function be effecting normal video operations as well?

I'm about ready to call VA to at least register with them that I'm seeing this problem and am not too thrilled with a $3500 piece of equipment that won't hold a steady black level- especially since Panny's big selling point is their blacks!
toddmiro is offline  
post #13 of 449 Old 12-09-2004, 06:36 PM
Member
 
peter_moy13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 168
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I've emailed VA about this issue also just to get it on their radar. Like others here, I wonder if anyone with a 42PHD7UY does not see this issue.

I'll give Panasonic a call tomorrow to see if they have anything interesting to say.

-Pete
peter_moy13 is offline  
post #14 of 449 Old 12-09-2004, 06:39 PM
AVS Special Member
 
jrock65's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,060
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Interesting that all of you are 42PHD7UY owners.

Does this mean that 50PHD7UY and 42PWD7UY owners don't have the same problem?
jrock65 is offline  
post #15 of 449 Old 12-09-2004, 06:52 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
cheridave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Orange County, Ca. USA
Posts: 3,268
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
I see only two things that should or could have any effect-

1. AGC

2. Peak Limit (Screen Saver Function)

If these are turned off and the issue still appears then I would also PM Techniwizard and see if he has any ideas.

Good luck.

Dave

"Appeasment only makes the Aggressor more Aggressive"
cheridave is offline  
post #16 of 449 Old 12-09-2004, 08:16 PM
spa
Senior Member
 
spa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Fargo, ND
Posts: 458
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Add another 42PHD7UY owner to the list of people who are experiencing this. However, I've seen it even when the scene doesn't really change brightness. For example, in The Empire Strikes Back at 5:32 the top and bottom bars change brightness in the middle of a shot where no significant change in scene brightness occurs. There are several other spots right around that area in the disk where brightness shifts. If anyone else has that movie it would be interesting to know if you're seeing the same thing in the same spot.

I also see one other oddity. When I move the Picture setting up and down, at certain settings the screen will get slightly brighter; go to the next setting and it dims again. That makes it harder to calibrate. (I saw it when calibrating with DVE patterns up.) Has anyone else encountered that?

Cheridave--AGC and peak limit were off, but have no effect on the problem if they're on.

Steve
spa is offline  
post #17 of 449 Old 12-10-2004, 05:26 AM
Member
 
peter_moy13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 168
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I wonder if everyone got a flawed batch of panels. FYI my build date is Sept. 2004.

-Pete
peter_moy13 is offline  
post #18 of 449 Old 12-10-2004, 05:58 AM
spa
Senior Member
 
spa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Fargo, ND
Posts: 458
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
My build date is also Sept 2004, Japan. By the way, the second issue can be seen when looking at DVE test patterns (not surprising that I'd find it there). I edited the original post to add that.

Steve
spa is offline  
post #19 of 449 Old 12-10-2004, 09:52 AM
Member
 
nick_622's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 66
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Hey Guys .. update for everyone ...

I just got off of the phone with Bob(one of the Panasonic Engineers for the Northeast Area) and he has confirmed this to be a known defect with this Plasma Model. They are able to re-create this issue, and it has been sent back to the factory for further troubleshooting. He says that chances are fairly slim that they will offer any kind of recalls for something like this.

I'm going to be sending my PHD7UY back to DTVCity .. and they are going to send me a NEC 42XM3 in exchange. I'm still in my thirty-day coverage with them. I have heard good things with this unit, and I don't want to watch this Panasonic anymore .. I look for the black level change all the time now and it's really annoying.

I have a DVI Card and Tabletop Stand if anyone is interested in buying them off of me as I cannot return them!! If anyone is interested in either .. shoot me an email at nickt@rochester.rr.com

Nick
nick_622 is offline  
post #20 of 449 Old 12-10-2004, 10:14 AM
AVS Special Member
 
JWhip's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Wayne, PA
Posts: 4,702
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 486 Post(s)
Liked: 562
I do not have this issue with my 507hduy.

Louder is NOT better!
JWhip is online now  
post #21 of 449 Old 12-10-2004, 10:20 AM
AVS Special Member
 
jrock65's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,060
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I don't get it. If they acknowledge it to be a defect, aren't they obligated to fix or replace the panels?
jrock65 is offline  
post #22 of 449 Old 12-10-2004, 10:24 AM
Member
 
nick_622's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 66
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I believe this particular problem is only with the 42" 7UY.
nick_622 is offline  
post #23 of 449 Old 12-10-2004, 11:09 AM
Member
 
peter_moy13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 168
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Check that, possibly only the 42" HD version of the 7UY show this issue. I can't believe that with the of amount of ED units out there that no one else would have noticed.

After checking with Panasonic today they recommended decreasing the brightness and contrast to minimize this effect. I'm not sure what else I can do at this point, I'm past the 30-day window with VA.

My situation is not as bad as what others have seen or reported here. It is limited (in my eyes) to certain scenes on 2:35:1 DVD with letterbox bars. When watching full screen 16x9 HD material or SD material stretched I do not notice this happening.

My DVD player is an ancient Pioneer PV-525 non-progressive attached via component to VGA. I plan to upgrade to a Panny S97 and use HDMI when that blade becomes available.

If they confirm that this is a defect, I hope Panasonic does right by us. How did they handle the power-off issue with owners of the 6-series panels last year?

-Pete
peter_moy13 is offline  
post #24 of 449 Old 12-10-2004, 01:39 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
jadolley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 23
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Pete
I have an upscaling DVD player, and component/HDMI outputs. I have adjusted my levels down but its still very bad. It also makes watching HD TV OTA broadcasts almost impossible, CSI and Law and Order make use of many high contrast scenes where this problem is like watching a strobe! It also effects any letterbox black, which again is very annoying on 4:3 or on a letter boxed DVD that will not fill a 16:9 screen, like Lord of the Rings!

I would hope Panasonic would consider this a Major Problem! The reason to get an HD Pany was to watch HD, and not turn down the contrast and brightness, to "dull out" the defect!

I guess we will have to wait and see.

Jim
jadolley is offline  
post #25 of 449 Old 12-11-2004, 12:32 PM
Advanced Member
 
PerryU's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: BC, Canada
Posts: 723
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally posted by spa
...in The Empire Strikes Back at 5:32 the top and bottom bars change brightness in the middle of a shot where no significant change in scene brightness occurs.
I just took a look at this on my old CRT. Composite out from my DVD, and the TV doesn't have an anamorphic squeeze mode.

That scene does have some weird brightness variations. Solo's standing near some out-of-frame video displays; I thought that might be causing it, but I'm not sure. There's a bunch of frozen white pipes behind his head that seem to visibly pulsate with brightness / blooming. Their breath's also visible in the cold from time to time, but doesn't look natural. A minute or so later, in the snow tunnel, the brightness is really variable as people walk past the light in the background. All of it looks somehow unrealistic, like an artifact of some kind.

What I don't see is any change in the letterbox bars. Mind you, I haven't tried it in a really dark room, but I'm sure any variation in the bars would have to be an artifact of the DVD player or tv.

My 2 cents, fwiw.

"I'm more of an idea rat..."
PerryU is offline  
post #26 of 449 Old 12-11-2004, 05:18 PM
spa
Senior Member
 
spa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Fargo, ND
Posts: 458
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I tried it on my CRT as well and saw no variation in the picture or the bars. Certainly there is variation in the scene, but it doesn't cause side effects like it does on the Panasonic HD.

Steve

Steve
spa is offline  
post #27 of 449 Old 12-11-2004, 11:47 PM
Member
 
rlshky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: San Diego
Posts: 59
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 10
That's B.S. if they know that there is a defect but aren't going to do anything for the people who already have the plasma. I'm not going to give up on this until i get a perfect working unit either from Panasonic or VA. Stay on them, the more people who are heard the more it'll help our cause. Post updates when you have them. I'm also curious if anyone has contested their credit card charges because of this. I think that's the next step i'm going to take if I don't start to see any progress or hear any solid info sometime really soon.
rlshky is offline  
post #28 of 449 Old 12-12-2004, 04:23 PM
Newbie
 
charker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 14
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I was told to re-post this here, seems the UK models are similar...

Hi there

I have been following this thread (actually another one!) for a few weeks and have a call into my supplier through to Panasonic UK about some of the issues you have been talking about.

I have seen strange brightness related issues on every type of connection.

I have the 42PHD7 the High-Def commercial screen in the UK. I also have the RCA equiped Component/S-Video/Composite terminal blade. I have a Panasonic DVD (S-video) and a Panasonic DMR-E85 feeding the screen through a direct component progressive feed. I also connect SKY (sat) through s-video via an AV amp.

I have had several different issues. On s-video I have seen the entire upper right quarter of the screen go gray in comparison to the rest of the screen when there is a "black" fade between scenes.

My main gripe is the with the "unstable" black background brightness, many times the picture just gets lighter and darker for no apparent reason and this is via all connections.

I have fed the screen with a PC VGA connection. I don't know if any of you are aware of "goom" but it a a random pattern generator for Microsoft Media Player and it produces bright patterns on (generally) black background and these scroll around at high speed and seem to highlight the issue very well. Whilst watching "goom" the screen flips between 2-3 different backgound brightness levels every 10 seconds or so. It's quite annoying...

I have just watched "One upon a time in the West" on a progressive component input. I sat in total darkness and every now and again the black bars (widescreen black bars) get brighter and then dimmer. I paused and rewound a couple of times and it happens every time in the same place. Just for info on this PAL disc it is 1.56 into the film where Bronson walks past Fonda in the saloon listing the names of dead people as Fonda tries to buy back the land for an "extra" dollar.

I'm not too bothered about 100% accuracy on test disks etc, but I now find myself watching a film and waiting for the next "flash", not exactly what I expected on such an expensive screen.

Like everyone else I want to know if it's a fundamental problem with the hardware or some software scaling/auto brightness thing. Anybody got any guesses as to what Panasonic could do about it?

I have to add that apart from this the picture is awesome.

Is this similar to what others are getting? I will post anything I get back from Panasonic.

charker
charker is offline  
post #29 of 449 Old 12-12-2004, 05:23 PM
Member
 
exrace's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Waterford, NY
Posts: 22
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Has anyone done these same types of tests on other brands looking for this condition like so many are with the panny series?

I be curious if you tweak other brands do they exhibit similar behavior.
exrace is offline  
post #30 of 449 Old 12-12-2004, 06:32 PM
Newbie
 
rmaier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 14
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I might as well chime in, although from what has been reported so far as Panasonic's response, it may be useless at this point.,

I too have a 42PHD7UY - ordered from VA as soon as they were available. I too noticed this "bug" that appears just as others have described it - when something bright comes into a dark scene, the black levels, which we are otherwise so proud of and the main reason we bought this plasma over competitors in the first place and have spent hours calibrating down to as close to inky black as possible, suddenly go charcoal gray. Then they switch back. I watched the "Eternal Sunshine of a Spotless Mind" and it happens all over the place, because this kind of scene composition happens frequently.

Also, I too have noticed the blacks get darker and lighter and darker (and lighter again) as one progresses step by step up the picture adjustment.

I chalked it up to not having calibrated something quite right yet, or hit upon a weird combo of settings, or something. But it won't go away, no matter what settings are used. It it is just as others in this thread have described. I don't seem to have the s-video issue, but i don't really use that input at this time.

I am just past the window of 30 days from VA, but I will call them to register my findings anyway.

Good luck to us all - here's hoping (for a miracle) that this could get resolved.

Rob
rmaier is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Closed Thread OLED Technology and Flat Panels General

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off