Official SED, Info, Discussion, Etc Thread!!! - Page 16 - AVS Forum
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post #451 of 2847 Old 08-30-2005, 08:51 AM
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Look for more information on SED, in mid September, from Canon.

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post #452 of 2847 Old 08-30-2005, 10:21 AM
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Actually there should be demonstrated on IFA (consumer fair) here in Berlin starting this Friday. I will go there and check it out.
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post #453 of 2847 Old 08-30-2005, 10:37 AM - Thread Starter
 
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IFA in Berlin is going to be interesting if they show 1080p SED, 1080p Panny plasma, and maybe 1080p Pioneer plasma.

I wish I could go.

Berlin is a fun city, too.
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post #454 of 2847 Old 08-31-2005, 09:09 AM
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I don't know if this has been discussed but I wonder if Toshiba/Canon had said anything about using sed technology for computer and camera monitors. It would seem promising with high contrast and lower power consumption but I haven't heard much
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post #455 of 2847 Old 08-31-2005, 09:22 AM
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The business model they've spoken of thus far calls for them to continue with LCD for smaller screen sizes. They are positioning SED to compete in the big screen class. I doubt SED will be practical for small sizes for at least a few years. Even so, we don't know what kind of resolution would be possible.
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post #456 of 2847 Old 08-31-2005, 09:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erdega79
I don't know if this has been discussed but I wonder if Toshiba/Canon had said anything about using sed technology for computer and camera monitors. It would seem promising with high contrast and lower power consumption but I haven't heard much
By 2007 Canon plans to be using OLED for camera screens, etc. LCD will hold onto the Computer monitor space for many years as there is little profit for any other technology to enter.
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post #457 of 2847 Old 08-31-2005, 02:11 PM - Thread Starter
 
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http://neasia.nikkeibp.com/neasia/002048

SED Manufacturing Methods Revealed

SID 2005 offered a host of new technology announcements, including the method for manufacturing SED panels, as well as new backlight technologies for LCD panels.

At last a portion of the technologies used to manufacture surface-conduction electron-emitter display (SED) panels, currently under development by Canon Inc of Japan and Toshiba Corp of Japan, has been revealed. The joint venture between the two, SED Inc of Japan, presented a paper on manufacturing methods used for SED panel electron emitters, at the Society for Information Display (SID) 2005 display conference and exhibition held in Boston from May 22 to 27, 2005. The paper stressed the cost competitiveness of the technology. Volume production of panels was slated to start in August 2005, while Toshiba has made the decision to site a volume production fab at its Himeji Plant, to start operation in January 2007.


The SID 2005 event also offered a host of new technology announcements related to liquid crystal display (LCD) panels, which are experiencing steady growth in the flat-screen TV market. A variety of approaches were covered for issues such as power consumption, motion visibility and gradation characteristics. According to one engineer at an LCD panel manufacturer, "Now that SED panels are almost here, with their high image quality evaluation, the bar has been raised quite a bit in the development competition." A number of technologies dealing with expansion of the range of color reproduction and integration of peripheral components, two areas where LCD panels excel, were also presented (Fig 1).



Participants also showed considerable interest in next-generation technologies such as bendable displays and a 40-inch organic electroluminescent (EL) panel.



Electron Emitter

The strong points of the SED panel are more than the excellent image quality, as evidenced by the high contrast ratio and motion visibility on a par with that of cathode ray tubes (CRT). Canon and Toshiba, the two key developers, appear confident that SEDs are fully cost competitive with other displays already in the flat-screen TV market, such as LCD and plasma display panels (PDP). The two firms agree that the manufacturing method to be used in volume production is the major reason for this - which is why so many engineers were keenly interested in the announcements on SED panel manufacturing made at SID 2005.



The core of the manufacturing method used for the electron emitter is the forming of an electron emitter gap, without using semiconductor processes such as photolithography.

The electron emitter releases the electrons that cause the phosphors to emit light, and is a key component in determining SED panel performance. There is one emitter per sub-pixel, making it equivalent to the thin-film transistor (TFT) in LCD panels. It has been known for some time that the electron emitter has a tiny nm-sized gap to release electrons.

This time the presenters showed a cross-section of the electron emitter, revealing that a tiny gap only 4nm to 6nm in size is formed in the carbon deposited on the surface of the device film (Fig 2). The method used to manufacture this gap was also revealed, as a combination of two processes: conductance forming and conductance activation (Fig 3).

In conductance forming, pulsed voltage is used to create tiny gaps in the PdO (palladium oxide) device film printed onto the electrodes using inkjet technology. Organic gas is then introduced into the process chamber while pulsed voltage is continued in a process called conductance activation. These processes are executed continuously in a vacuum.

Conductance forming creates sub-micron class gaps in the device film, and conductance activation causes these gaps to reach the 4nm to 6nm range. Conductance activation causes the gaps to narrow because, according to Eiji Yamaguchi, senior general manager, Product Development & Design Center, Product Technology Headquarters at SED Inc, "The organic gas breaks down under hot CVD, producing carbon molecules, which are deposited on the surface of the device film." In other words, conductance activation creates a carbon thinfilm, as shown in the cross-sectional photograph of the electron emitter. This thinfilm is only 30nm to 50nm thick.



Deposition, Evaporation

Conductance activation creates the narrow 4nm to 6nm gaps, defining the characteristics of the electron emitter required for use in the SED panel. The narrower the gap, the greater the electric field density around the gap when drive voltage is applied, and the greater the device current (tunnel current through the gap), as shown in Fig 3b.

The higher device current means that, of the total, relatively more discharge current flows to the phosphors. According to SED Inc's Yamaguchi, "While the device current isn't zero prior to activation, it is extremely low, and there is essentially no discharge current."

Activation causes the device current to increase to a certain level, where it stabilizes. In other words, the gaps narrow because of activation, but finally settle down to a certain size, which happens to be 4nm to 6nm in this case. Yamaguchi explained that this happens because the deposition and evaporation of the carbon molecules reaches a balanced state.

This balanced state can be controlled by organic gas concentration and the voltage input to the device film. By controlling the equilibrium between deposition and evaporation, engineers can control the nm-size gaps. The firm has not disclosed details of the organic gas used for activation, but Katsumi Komiya, director, Product Technology Headquarters and deputy senior group executive at SED Inc pointed out, "It is not a special gas."

Cheap, as Promised

Now that some details of the manufacturing method are known, it can be seen that the glass substrate on the electron emitter side can be made with some technologies providing relatively low cost. Wiring patterns can be screen-printed onto the glass substrate, and then the device film formed with inkjet technology. Organic gas is introduced into the process chamber while the device film is conducting to create the gaps (Fig 3a).

SED Inc is confident about the manufacturing method. "No doubt engineers in the field thought we were making the electron emitters with photolithography or some other complex process. Probably few of them will believe that we can form nm-sized gaps, with good repeatability, using only simple processes like blowing a fuse. I think now that some of the details of the manufacturing process have been revealed, they'll understand how we can do it so cheaply," said SED Inc's Komiya.

The reactions of engineers to SED Inc's presentation seems to split into two major camps, one recognizing the intriguing points of the manufacturing method, and the other stressing that cost estimation, including yield, is simply impossible until volume production actually starts.

Creating the 4nm to 6nm gaps makes it possible to generate ample electrons from a low drive voltage of only about a dozen volts. The technology eliminates the need for a driver IC capable of withstanding high voltages, as is required with PDP. This fact also helps keep costs down.

Reliability

SED Inc also mentioned the characteristics of the latest electron emitter, such as the fact that the emission current achieves a density of 30mA/cm2 for an acceleration voltage of 10kV. The firm commented that the electron emission efficiency, which is the ratio of device current to emission current, has surpassed 3%. The prototype shown at CEATEC Japan 2004, held in October 2004, was said to be a bit over 1%.

Data on the reliability (life) of the electron emitter was also disclosed. Even after 60,000 hours of accelerated test, current density for the emission current dropped only 10%, backing up existing claims that the SED panel life will be determined by the phosphors, not the electron emitters.

Canon and Toshiba were planning to further improve brightness in preparation for panel volume production, hoping to achieve 500cd/m2 by the volume-production start date of August 2005. Recent prototypes already boasted a peak intensity of 400cd/m2. Researchers intended to achieve the improvement by enhancing the characteristics of the electron emitter. As Komiya explained, "We are making good progress identifying the process parameters that maximize device current."

The firm plans to start volume production for 50-inch class panels. "We will be installing equipment capable of manufacturing panels for 50-inch class sets into the Canon Hiratsuka Plant," revealed Komiya.


by Takuya Otani
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post #458 of 2847 Old 08-31-2005, 04:09 PM
 
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OK, so make a prediction: when will I be able to buy a 65" SED panel for $5000 or less?
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post #459 of 2847 Old 08-31-2005, 04:29 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by optivity
OK, so make a prediction: when will I be able to buy a 65" SED panel for $5000 or less?
I say yes, but only because I want SED to succeed.

If you carefully read the article, the manufacturing technology that makes these 4-6 nm emitters is mind-boggling.
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post #460 of 2847 Old 08-31-2005, 05:06 PM
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Pretty f'n cool :cool:

Just like women, nobody said this was going to be cheap either...
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post #461 of 2847 Old 08-31-2005, 05:18 PM
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Threads Merged!

Dave

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post #462 of 2847 Old 08-31-2005, 05:48 PM
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This stuff remains very exciting. It also is obviously -- from reading the article -- not quite fully baked. It looks like a pie, smells like a pie, but doesn't quite yet taste like a pie. Give them time to carmelize the sugar and brown the crust and it might well be rewarded.

That said, I find these vague claims of cost competitiveness to be highly misleading. What cost are they using? Current? Next year's? The year after? Both PDP and LCD will be much cheaper then. SED costs won't decline as fast because the volumes are so much smaller. And if they've already figured out ways to make the stuff cheaply, I wonder how much more they can run down the cost curve?

Still, 10,000:1 contrast is nothing to sneeze at. I mean, I still think this might well be the videophile's flat panel. But the price has to be within about 10% of a Panasonic plasma.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #463 of 2847 Old 08-31-2005, 05:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wojtek
I say yes, but only because I want SED to succeed.
I think he wanted to know WHEN not IF! :)

This stuff is definitely cool but I try to stay a realist about these things. I'm still waiting for my flying car and personal rocket pack. Oh, and for CDs to come down in price once the cost of manufacturing them comes down. :)

Bruce
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post #464 of 2847 Old 08-31-2005, 06:22 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce_bruce
I think he wanted to know WHEN not IF! :)

Bruce

Only rogo can say WHEN... :D

I am just a geek-in-training who wants this exceedingly cool technology to succeed.

But seriously - nobody can answer optivity's question (an excellent question at that) with any certainty.

I have seen people put untold billions of dollars into Globalstar and Iridium satellite phone systems (launching sats on huge rockets) and fail.

The bottom line is - nobody knows.
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post #465 of 2847 Old 09-01-2005, 06:01 AM
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10,000:1 contrast is drool worthy... :D

"Guns? Guns are easy."
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post #466 of 2847 Old 09-01-2005, 06:44 AM
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SED contrast was recently improved to 100,000:1. And then there's the ability to do natively 13-bit (8192 levels) of gradation.

http://neasia.nikkeibp.com/neasiaarchivedetail/001588

"The performance of the SED panel exhibited by the two firms this time was significantly higher than that of the panel shown in October 2004. The contrast ratio (dim environment), for example, has been improved from 8600:1 to 100k:1, and peak luminance from 300cd/m2 to 400cd/m2. As a member of Toshiba's staff explained, "We will not begin volume production with the display performance of this panel. Display performance will be improved even further by that time. We expect to begin volume production as planned in August 2005.""


"Fukuma also mentioned the high gradation display performance of the SED. While gradation display has been controlled by varying the pulse width modulation until now, he indicated that this technique could be combined with pulse voltage modulation. The prototype is a 10-bit design (1,024 gradations), but the firm claims success in 12- to 13-bit designs.

Most PDP and LCD TVs offer 8- to 10-bit gradation performance, with any colors above this range requiring dithering or approximation with signal processing. In contrast, the SED panel may be able to display color signals with this color range without any problem."


Very exciting stuff!! :D
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post #467 of 2847 Old 09-01-2005, 08:38 AM
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Data on the reliability (life) of the electron emitter was also disclosed. Even after 60,000 hours of accelerated test, current density for the emission current dropped only 10%, backing up existing claims that the SED panel life will be determined by the phosphors, not the electron emitters.
So from this can we infer that it should have at least as good/comparable of shelf life (and half life) as other posphor based displays (CRT/plasma)?

Just like women, nobody said this was going to be cheap either...
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post #468 of 2847 Old 09-01-2005, 10:30 AM
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German magazine "AudioVision" reports in today's newest issue that Toshiba is likely to show the first production model on IFA, which is a 54" 1080p SED screen.
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post #469 of 2847 Old 09-01-2005, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by madshi
German magazine "AudioVision" reports in today's newest issue that Toshiba is likely to show the first production model on IFA, which is a 54" 1080p SED screen.
That's great. Hopefully there will be 80 in. SEDs by '08...

 

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post #470 of 2847 Old 09-01-2005, 10:42 AM - Thread Starter
 
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IFA is going to be exciting.

and CEDIA, and CES....
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post #471 of 2847 Old 09-01-2005, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by madshi

"German magazine "AudioVision" reports in today's newest issue that Toshiba is likely to show the first production model on IFA, which is a 54" 1080p SED screen."

Great! That is the perfect size for me. Now if they can get the price down to 2.5k by 2009 I will buy one just as my warranty expires on my current set.

BTW My local Circuit City has a Labour Day sale on 65" Hitachi CRT based RPTVs for $1,299! Unreal!

IB
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post #472 of 2847 Old 09-01-2005, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoodlum
SED contrast was recently improved to 100,000:1. And then there's the ability to do natively 13-bit (8192 levels) of gradation.

http://neasia.nikkeibp.com/neasiaarchivedetail/001588

"The performance of the SED panel exhibited by the two firms this time was significantly higher than that of the panel shown in October 2004. The contrast ratio (dim environment), for example, has been improved from 8600:1 to 100k:1, and peak luminance from 300cd/m2 to 400cd/m2. As a member of Toshiba's staff explained, "We will not begin volume production with the display performance of this panel. Display performance will be improved even further by that time. We expect to begin volume production as planned in August 2005.""


"Fukuma also mentioned the high gradation display performance of the SED. While gradation display has been controlled by varying the pulse width modulation until now, he indicated that this technique could be combined with pulse voltage modulation. The prototype is a 10-bit design (1,024 gradations), but the firm claims success in 12- to 13-bit designs.

Most PDP and LCD TVs offer 8- to 10-bit gradation performance, with any colors above this range requiring dithering or approximation with signal processing. In contrast, the SED panel may be able to display color signals with this color range without any problem."


Very exciting stuff!! :D
:eek:

I knew there was a good reason why I was holding out on buying another set. The only thing left to uncover is that whole burn in thing. If there's no burn, then this will be the one to beat.

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post #473 of 2847 Old 09-01-2005, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by inky blacks
Originally Posted by madshiBTW My local Circuit City has a Labour Day sale on 65" Hitachi CRT based RPTVs for $1,299! Unreal!IB
Wow that's cheap for a VERY nice set!!! :eek: :p

Maximum, as it's posphor based it will have the same risks of burn in as plasma/CRT. Which is basically minimal risk when the set is properly set up and used ;)

What of my lifespan question though folks? Any thoughts?

Just like women, nobody said this was going to be cheap either...
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post #474 of 2847 Old 09-01-2005, 11:03 AM - Thread Starter
 
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SED burn-in propensity should be (should being the operative word) comparable to direct-view CRT sets on account of similar phosphor chemistry.

Time will tell.
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post #475 of 2847 Old 09-01-2005, 11:36 AM
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Determing phosphor half-life can be very usefull as phosphor consistency can be very exact these days. But the emitter lifespan will need real world volume testing before we can be sure that their lifespan test is consistent among all emitter with a panel. But it certainly looks promising.

Also, it doesn't say at what current density drop will the emitters start to fail. Is it at a 15% drop or a 40% drop. They suggest that a 10% drop is still within an acceptable range. Is there a change in the image quality with a 10% drop?

Still lots of questions.
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post #476 of 2847 Old 09-01-2005, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by wojtek
SED burn-in propensity should be (should being the operative word) comparable to direct-view CRT sets on account of similar phosphor chemistry.

Time will tell.
This makes sense.

Me am cry. :(

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post #477 of 2847 Old 09-01-2005, 12:41 PM
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This technology will obviously not be completely free of burn-in risk. It simply can't be by its very nature.

But more and more material is moving to widescreen to cut the 4:3 risk and I suspect even slightly reasonable precauctions will be sufficient to keep the risk negligible.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #478 of 2847 Old 09-01-2005, 12:49 PM
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If the 54" size is accurate, that's great. That's a perfect size for me, as well.

I can only assume we'll see this unit at CES??

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post #479 of 2847 Old 09-02-2005, 12:36 AM
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http://www.monitor4u.co.kr/english/n...=1155&contdiv=

Quote:
Canon to Build a New SED Panel Volume Production Technology Development Base

Canon Inc. is currently preparing to build a new research and development base for SED panels. The company will acquire a piece of land from Nishimatsu Construction Co., Ltd.'s Hiratsuka Operations, which is close to Canon's Hiratsuka Development Center comprising its initial volume production line of 50-inch and larger SED panels. Capital investment reaches about ¥20.8 billion. The new facility is slated to partially start operation in July 2006.

Canon plans to use the new base primarily for development of volume production technology. "Although volume production will only start with 50-inch and larger SED panels, we also intend to produce smaller screen size panels after full-fledged volume production begins in 2007. The new base will be mainly engaged with development of volume production technology for such small screen size panels," said a Canon's spokesperson. The company estimates approximately 150 employees working at the new base as of the end of July 2006.

SED Inc., a joint venture formed by Canon and Toshiba Corp., previously announced that it would commence small-lot production of SED panels in August 2005. Commenting on the company, Canon explained, "SED is currently at the phase of final tests towards the initial schedule."
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post #480 of 2847 Old 09-02-2005, 07:35 AM
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"Although volume production will only start with 50-inch and larger SED panels, we also intend to produce smaller screen size panels after full-fledged volume production begins in 2007. The new base will be mainly engaged with development of volume production technology for such small screen size panels,"
That's great news for those of us who don't want/need big honkin' TV's in every room. A nice 37" SED would look great hanging on my bedroom wall.

Larry
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