Official SED, Info, Discussion, Etc Thread!!! - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 2847 Old 04-26-2005, 01:11 PM - Thread Starter
 
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>>If SED's lifespan proves to be anywhere near the reliability of CRT technology (which currently beats all competition for longevity), that would be yet another SED advantage, and another nail in the coffins of everything else<<

Looks like it does not (only 30K hours of half-life). Not bad, but count on plasma and LCD sales folks beat SED on this like a drum....
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post #182 of 2847 Old 04-27-2005, 07:47 AM
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Does anybody know how long lifespan 1st gen plasmas did have?
Thinking about crt lifespan, I've seen a lot of computer monitor crt's which have a lot of less than 30k hours on their meter, but they are clearly at the end of their life.
Not that I believe these 60k half-life plasma advertizing, but...
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post #183 of 2847 Old 04-27-2005, 08:43 AM
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CRT tube half-life is around 25,000 hours. Amazing how finicky we have become. ;)
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post #184 of 2847 Old 04-27-2005, 11:33 AM
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"Does anybody know how long lifespan 1st gen plasmas did have?"

Terrible, but (a) no one bought them and (b) there were no competitors. It's a different world.

"Not that I believe these 60k half-life plasma advertizing, but..."

Well, whatever. The mfrs. are actually doing measurements that make those extrapolations very, very valid. The method used to generate those numbers is far more accurate, for example, than the method used to get MTBF for hard drives.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #185 of 2847 Old 04-27-2005, 12:19 PM
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Rogo, I'd belive much easier these measurements, if they'd be done by independent 3rd party measuring all brands and models with same tests.
I wonder why those manufacturers want to do these measurements by themselves...

Then more important question:
Now that we are getting digital displays with better and better contrast, has anybody heard about greater color bir depths than 8bit?
I know that dvi specs has an option that you could use first link as msb and second link as lsb so even 16bit colors could be used with dvi.
But is there any signs that graphic card and display manufacturers would use this?
This would also restrict the resolution to 1920x1200 even with reduced blanking.
How is it with hdmi, is higher bitdepths possible with higher resolutions?
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post #186 of 2847 Old 04-27-2005, 03:44 PM
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Rogo, I'd belive much easier these measurements, if they'd be done by independent 3rd party measuring all brands and models with same tests.
I wonder why those manufacturers want to do these measurements by themselves...


OK, believe what you wish. The fact is that there is predictability to these chemicals after they are torture tested enough. And with models from 2 years ago having been run for 10,000 or so hours with several measurements taken over that period (not to mention 4-year-old models at 20K hours), the ability to predict brightness is real. There are also accelerated tests run "super hot" that give data that is predictive on normal use out to 60K hours and more.

Brightness decline for plasmas in home use is a non-issue so long as the panel is a modern one.

In the future, lifespan increases will be interested only for (a) public display and (b) as further resistance to burn in.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #187 of 2847 Old 04-27-2005, 04:23 PM
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toke:

So just how cold is it, today?

It's 8 bits per color, 24 bits. This seems to be defined in the ATSC standard, as it has been explained to me previously in these forums. Some companies advertise 10 bits, but this may be for calculations and are not a reference to the actual signal information.

Rogo?

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post #188 of 2847 Old 04-27-2005, 04:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by navychop
It's 8 bits per color, 24 bits.
Even the cheapest DSLR cameras and better compact cameras take 12bit pictures, that's 36bits.
Ever wondered why?
Wouldn't it be nice to see those colors?
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post #189 of 2847 Old 04-27-2005, 05:13 PM
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Video is more forgiving than still photography. Ever see a "paused" NTSC or even PAL video frame? Or a printout of one? Our eyes fill in a lot with video images.

Nice? SURE! A change in the ATSC specs (and possibly worldwide specs, since there is a connection for "some" compatibility/interoperability) to allow it to happen?- Don't hold your breath!

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post #190 of 2847 Old 04-27-2005, 05:59 PM
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The picture data currently only has 8 bits per color, that's correct. HDMI, IIRC, allows for carrying 10-bit-per-color information.

The displays that use extra bits of processing are doing it for the reasons navychop says.

And he's also right about video and still photography having little to do with one another. Video is using 2 megapixels on theater-sized screens. Photography needs 5 megapixels just to make a poster.

There isn't much relationship.

And as for displays, since the sources won't have 12 bits per color of information -- especially after compression and filtering -- this is all a bit of a canard.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #191 of 2847 Old 04-27-2005, 06:12 PM
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HDMI can technically use only 24-bits of information per pixel but it can deliver 12-bit 4:2:2 YCbCr right now. 4:2:2 YCbCr has two pixels share the same color information but increases the luminance (brightness) and color depth from 8-bits to 12-bits. Nothing is currently planned that can deliver 12-bit 4:2:2 YCbCr but that ability of HDMI will probably be used sometime in the future. Also all current video on both DVD and on Blu-ray/HD-DVD is in 8-bit 4:2:0 which has four pixels share the same color information so 12-bit 4:2:2 YCbCr would be a major improvement.
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post #192 of 2847 Old 04-28-2005, 09:16 AM
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http://www.ddwg.org/data/dvi_10.pdf
"2.2.3. High Color Depth Support

Color depths requiring greater than 24-bit per pixel are allowed to be supported via the second link. Future versions of this specification reserve the right to require different implementations of high color depth support that are not backwards compatible with this version of the specification.

The colors per pel are logically concatenated with the most significant bits provided over the primary T.M.D.S link (link#0) and the least significant bits provided over the secondary T.M.D.S link (link#1). If implemented, the data format on the secondary T.M.D.S. links must the same 24-bit MSB aligned RGB TFT data format as defined for the primary link."

Waiting for 48-bit 4:4:4 RGB... ;-)
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post #193 of 2847 Old 04-28-2005, 10:19 AM
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"Waiting for 48-bit 4:4:4 RGB... ;-)"

It's going to be a sunny day in the Helsiniki winter before you can buy sources with that kind of color info, unfortunately.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #194 of 2847 Old 04-28-2005, 10:26 AM
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Yep,
allthough working with 10bit yuv video material, it would be nice to have even 30bit digital as you can have from parhelia's analog output.
Too bad flat screens are digital and big analog widescreens cost five digits, weight a ton, fills a whole room and heats the whole building at sunny Helsinki winter...
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post #195 of 2847 Old 04-28-2005, 12:52 PM
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In Helsinki, I prefer to get "heated" during the summer with a drink at the Klaus Kurki... beats the heck out of a video display. :)

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #196 of 2847 Old 04-28-2005, 12:52 PM
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How much would Sony and other Plasma manufacturers have to pay Canon and Toshiba to get them to cancel SED?
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post #197 of 2847 Old 04-28-2005, 01:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by rogo
In Helsinki, I prefer to get "heated" during the summer with a drink at the Klaus Kurki... beats the heck out of a video display. :)
Actually, there is 1920x1080 HDTV on cable in Helsinki to be received if
one has capable display :D .

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post #198 of 2847 Old 04-28-2005, 03:38 PM
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"How much would Sony and other Plasma manufacturers have to pay Canon and Toshiba to get them to cancel SED?"

Zero.

-----------------------------

"Actually, there is 1920x1080 HDTV on cable in Helsinki to be received if
one has capable display"

I'll take the drink, a meal, and the company of the Finns any dady over HDTV. Have you ever been to Helsinki?

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #199 of 2847 Old 04-28-2005, 06:02 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Artwood
How much would Sony and other Plasma manufacturers have to pay Canon and Toshiba to get them to cancel SED?
Quote:
Originally posted by rogo
Zero.
Who cares? What I want to know is... when will we see an SED panel and how Ferrari priced will it be?
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post #200 of 2847 Old 04-28-2005, 08:34 PM
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Whenever Sony and other Plasma manufacturers give them the OK--the price will be 1 dollar less than a Fujitsu Plasma--they'll be trashed here at the Plasma forum for six months but then Toshiba will sell the rights to produce them and they'll get a new forum with the Flat Panel LCDs so plasmas can still sell. Various AVS sages here will opine about how great they always thought SED was and how they always knew it would make it--such opinions will be expressed on the new SED/Flat Panel LCD forum of course!
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post #201 of 2847 Old 04-28-2005, 09:00 PM
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Artwood, you are very optimistic about the future of SED. I remember many optimistic predictions of OLED being made in magazines over ten years ago. Personally I believe SED will produce a great picture that is slightly better than Plasma, but it will cost far more and will ultimately become a niche product category. Also mass production of SED is not planned until 2007 and that is only for Japan. SED will not be officially sold in the US until at least 2008. At which time both Plasma and LCD will be both better and cheaper than they currently are.
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post #202 of 2847 Old 04-28-2005, 11:35 PM
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"Various AVS sages here will opine about how great they always thought SED was ..."

Some here have already opined many times about how promising they think the technology is. But that's a different story than wanting to sit around for 3 years talking about the same things over and over.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #203 of 2847 Old 04-29-2005, 05:40 AM
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The burn-in issue would be a non-issue if the FCC would come to their senses and mandate that ALL digital broadcasts must be 16:9, not just HD. Add to that a mandate outlawing all those damn static logos and problem solved! I realize some game players may still have a problem, but I say let them eat cake...er, LCD.

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post #204 of 2847 Old 04-29-2005, 09:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by dsmith901
The burn-in issue would be a non-issue if the FCC would come to their senses and mandate that ALL digital broadcasts must be 16:9, not just HD. Add to that a mandate outlawing all those damn static logos and problem solved! I realize some game players may still have a problem, but I say let them eat cake...er, LCD.
But then DTV stations would just output 4:3 content with sidebars, like a lot already do, so technically they would be complying by broadcasting a 16:9 signal, even though the content is 4:3.

And even if sidebars weren't allowed, and if all new shows were required to be produced in 16:9, there's still the problem of old 4:3 movies and TV shows. They'd have to be cropped or stretched and that would upset a lot of OAR purists like me. I prefer to have the choice, at least, of watching in OAR or stretching/zooming in the way I find most pleasing for any particular program. When DVDs first came out, I was more excited about finally getting to see movies at home in OAR than I was about the improvements in PQ.

And speaking of DVDs, those 2.35:1 movies will still pose a burn-in risk. My guess is once 16:9 TVs become the norm rather than the exception, we'll see more 16:9 pan&scan versions of 2.35:1 movies, like we see with 4:3 P&S movies today. Again, I would still want the option of being able to watch a film in its OAR. If it's a comedy or something, I won't mind zooming in and cropping out a little bit of side content, but I want to see my Star Wars and LOTR films in their full widescreen glory.

We can at least agree that the static logos need to go.

I want to eat your brains and gain your knowledge.
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post #205 of 2847 Old 04-29-2005, 12:53 PM
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Rogo: it's quite true that SED may never get here and by the time it does Plasma may be low priced enough to where it will be irrelevant. I'm just frustrated that there is no Plasma alternative that doesn't cost a zillion dollars. SXRD in my opinion is not significantly better than the best Plasma has to offer--the only thing I know is this--unless SED simply blows the whole world away with its Picture Quality or unless it is equal or better than SXRD in Picture Quality at a lower price--it isn't going to make it. I don't know if DLP or D'ILA or Flat Panel LCD can improve enough to catch Plasma--if they can't we might be watching the 1080p Plasma versus 1080p SXRD war for years to come--if that battle remains at today's Picture Quality level without improvement it's not good enough for me. What do you think Rogo: will Picture Quality of all technologies improve much in the next five years and what price level will SED have to be at relative to other technologies to be a major factor(not necessarily the #1 seller)?
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post #206 of 2847 Old 04-29-2005, 01:00 PM
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Art -- Picture quality will improve. How much? I dunno. I'd say all technologies will move forward, except CRT, which will be hard to come by in five years in any serious size (say mid-20s and up).

What price does SED have to be? It depends when you can buy it and what competitors cost. I believe it has to be $1 less than the more expensive of LCD or plasma to even get noticed and $1 less than the less expensive of the two -- at a given size -- to garner anywhere near the 30% of the market they are seeking. (And that's what they are seeking.)

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #207 of 2847 Old 04-29-2005, 02:57 PM
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If I were SXRD I'd try to drop in price and bring out smaller sizes in this time interval when Plasma isn't offering much 1080p--once Plasma goes 1080p SXRD will garner less market share--if I were them I'd price SXRD $1 more than D'ILA--if I were Plasma I wouldn't worry so much about speed of deployment of 1080p but would try to gain more and more market share of the HD 50+ inch market.

P.S. My allusion to sages isn't about Rogo--sages know alot--Rogo is more than just knowledge-Rogo is about performance!
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post #208 of 2847 Old 04-30-2005, 05:30 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Artwood
--unless SED simply blows the whole world away with its Picture Quality or unless it is equal or better than SXRD in Picture Quality at a lower price--it isn't going to make it...--we might be watching the 1080p Plasma versus 1080p SXRD war for years to come-- will Picture Quality of all technologies improve much in the next five years and what price level will SED have to be at relative to other technologies to be a major factor(not necessarily the #1 seller)?
The feedback to date regarding SED panels indicates this display technology is superior to PDP in virtually all categories: full 1080p resolution, higher contrast ratios and luminance, lower black luminance, faster pixel response times and lower power consumption. Most likely, 50†SED panels will be available by 2007 and affordably priced by 2010. While there will be a premium attached to SED panels, those who are “well-heeled†enough and appreciate the difference in performance, will pay the up-charge for this display technology. While SED may not supplant PDP/LCD as the masses display of choice, it will carve out a niche in the FP market.
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post #209 of 2847 Old 04-30-2005, 05:57 AM
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" The feedback to date regarding SED panels indicates this display technology is superior to PDP in virtually all categories"

If demos were products, virtually everything you currently own that's based on technology would be from a company you've never heard of.

"Most likely, 50†SED panels will be available by 2007 and affordably priced by 2010."

And what price will everything else be?

" While SED may not supplant PDP/LCD as the masses display of choice, it will carve out a niche in the FP market."

Maybe, but the business is not being built to carve out a niche and I doubt it's designed to stick around if the "niche" isn't more like a slice.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #210 of 2847 Old 04-30-2005, 06:48 AM
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We are all over the map I see.

Based on the reviews I have read Qualia SXRD RPTV is better than any plasma to date(thus reviewed.) Plasmas and LCDs in general havent garnered glowing reviews largely due to slow response, poorer color depth and effective CR, and poor black levels. You usually see reviews with comments like - good looking "for a plasma or fp." There are legitimate inherent problems for both plasma and LCD techs and every time you hear of a cure coming down the pipe, its been rife with its own set of tradeoffs - witness the latest attempts at getting blacks on LCDs with active iris controls.

I cant speak for everyone but I view LCD and plasma both as inherently flawed in the way they function whereas I view SED in its theoretical function as perfect for the human eye or near perfection. I will pay a premium for the better pq and inherent tech if it materializes. I would love to see SED go mainstream but I dont need that to buy it. MOST people dont view HT critically so I dont see a critical tech going mainstream if its not cheap, particularly against the backdrop of a flourescent flooded showrooms where one of SEDs biggest advantages will be lost.

And that phrase "Ferrari-priced" is being batted around again. Thats not what the man said. He said it will be the Ferrari of their lineup, that could mean price and or performance. I'm not jumping on them for price until we see one.

As for all the speculation about 36" sets and pricing, this from this months TPV regarding SED info at CES:

Quote:
Toshiba confirmed the new model will be 55" and initially sell at a slight premium (I figure 10-20%) above comparably sized plasmas.
While certainly not written in stone, thats much more consistent with Canon/Toshiba's initial official plan.

I may be a plasma/LCD owner if my impatience graphed against plasma/LCD pricing on the way down goes supercritcal, but I am hoping for SED success in the worst way. And by success I mean available at plasma/LCD pricing +50% or under.

ss
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