Official SED, Info, Discussion, Etc Thread!!! - Page 93 - AVS Forum
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post #2761 of 2847 Old 10-10-2006, 04:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55
I had 3 SXRD's. I now own a Panny Plasma, enough said. No Sony did not get into that Lcos display shoot out and after owning 3 SXRD's I know why.
Any particular issue with them?

(I saw one at the Sony store and it looked pretty impressive. Admittedly, that was a very limited experience and the set was probably being driven from a pristine source...)
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post #2762 of 2847 Old 10-10-2006, 06:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi
Do you happen to have an iScan around? I'd love you to try the "moving white bar on black background" test on your Fujitsu.
No Madshi, sorry I don't. To be honest I've never felt the need for any kind of scaler/processor with the Fujitsu and its built-in AVMII.
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post #2763 of 2847 Old 10-10-2006, 08:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikeoz
Keep in mind that SED was/is supposed to be cheap to produce, but that's also news from several years ago. SED has been around for a while, just not in mass production, due to many issues discussed here. So, it was relatively cheap, but other flat panel technologies have dropped so much (LCD/Plasma) that it is probably not longer relatively as cheap as it used to be. Of course this can change if SED goes into mass production and economies of scale take place..
That is true, I didn't think about that. $2000 was "cheap" a few years ago. That's still not encouraging to me.

Quote:
I think you're not making fair comparisons in your analogies. You're comparing the same/very similar technology progressing over time. A more appropriate comparison would be comparing how much a current 40GB conventional hdd costs in comparison to a solid state (flash) 40GB hdd. There's a big difference in price there.. That's a much more correct analogy with regards to LCD/Plasma and SED.
The analogies are across all tech, not just a chosen few. Look at cassettes to CDs. VHS to DVDs. Very different moving from tape to optical media. However, the "normal" price (over time) for this tech did was not as substantial as the jump from CRT to Plasma/LCD/DLP.

I'd like to contribute this to the relative "newness" of the market, but with every sportscast advertising HDTVs now, I fear that the market may normalize at these steep prices.

I really hope I'm wrong, since HD is still very far from being the new standard, but I'm still worried (see next part).


Quote:
Again, I think you're missing the point. If companies could offer things at lower prices and make more money they would. The problem is that this isn't possible. Econ101, supply and demand.
I disagree. Supply and demand is never the only factor in pricing. This is why Sony and Microsoft are so keen on selling their game consoles at massive losses. A big factor in pricing is charging what people will pay. Look at CDs. These things were cheaper to make than cassettes and, if I remember correctly, that was an earlier potential selling point (CDs being cheaper than tapes). However, despite the cost to produce, CDs have CONSISTENTLY been more expensive than tapes. Tapes were $10-12; CDs were $15+.

Why? Because they could. Using the same "new tech" excuse.

I hope HD doesn't end up like that. But I can only hope, at this point.


However, if Laser TVs turn out to be as good and inexpensive as the companies are hyping, I'll be the happiest person in the world....

...just as long as they make them in less than 50" and they have decent blacks and view angles. :)
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post #2764 of 2847 Old 10-10-2006, 08:10 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross
I never asked you Auditor, have YOU seen or is this all blind faith?
I have not seen SED yet. But others have. And yes its faith as well my foresight.
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post #2765 of 2847 Old 10-10-2006, 08:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55

SED is going lay in waste to all previous display technologies.
I love listening to all the great thing that are mentioned here but I need to make a decision. To help in making that decision I need some basic information. Could you folks help me out?

These are my real questions:

First, What is your best estimate of the time period when SED can be guaranteed to be out -- not just fantasy or wishful thinking ... and not just arrive but be proven out and reliable?

Second, When will it be available in at least a 55 inch size or larger? Ok, I could accept a 50 inch if needed.

Third, what are the expected prices?

thanks for all the help. I would like a superb set before i die and in time to enjoy it for a few years ... (I am 65 now) ... I laugh but I am serious. Thanks again.
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post #2766 of 2847 Old 10-10-2006, 09:38 PM
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Laser TV (left) and PDP (right).
http://www.itwire.com.au/images/stories/lasertv.jpg
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post #2767 of 2847 Old 10-10-2006, 09:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vtms
Laser TV (left) and PDP (right).
I read about that new technology for the 1st time today (of all places - C|Net).
Promising, but just like SED, we'll all 'see it in our soup'.

I'll probably be in the market for a new TV next summer, so hopefully 1080p Plasmas will have dropped a bit by then.

Ðave -
It was technically a single shenanigan, more like a hijink...

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post #2768 of 2847 Old 10-10-2006, 11:01 PM
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Lasers, blah, blah, blah....

SED, blah, blah, blah....

Blah, blah, blah....

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #2769 of 2847 Old 10-11-2006, 01:15 AM
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Could Laser TV be another hurdle for SED ?
Reports say half the price of LCD/Plasma's. Available from Mitsubishi and Samsung Late 2007.
At least these will be affordable if they actually make it to market.

Just speculating !
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post #2770 of 2847 Old 10-11-2006, 01:59 AM
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Talking about the new laser based DLP units?
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post #2771 of 2847 Old 10-11-2006, 07:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E.C.
I disagree. Supply and demand is never the only factor in pricing. This is why Sony and Microsoft are so keen on selling their game consoles at massive losses. A big factor in pricing is charging what people will pay. Look at CDs. These things were cheaper to make than cassettes and, if I remember correctly, that was an earlier potential selling point (CDs being cheaper than tapes). However, despite the cost to produce, CDs have CONSISTENTLY been more expensive than tapes. Tapes were $10-12; CDs were $15+.
What people will pay for a product is the Demand side of Supply and Demand... CD's sell at $15 because there's demand for CD's at $15. It still pretty much all comes back to supply and demand.
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post #2772 of 2847 Old 10-11-2006, 07:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo
Lasers, blah, blah, blah....

SED, blah, blah, blah....

Blah, blah, blah....

:D
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post #2773 of 2847 Old 10-11-2006, 07:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo
Lasers, blah, blah, blah....

SED, blah, blah, blah....

Blah, blah, blah....
Rogo: What happened, cat got your keyboard?. :D
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post #2774 of 2847 Old 10-11-2006, 07:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by selze
Could Laser TV be another hurdle for SED ?
Reports say half the price of LCD/Plasma's. Available from Mitsubishi and Samsung Late 2007.
At least these will be affordable if they actually make it to market.

Just speculating !
Looks like CES 2007 with several companies showing off Laser sets should be very challenging for SED. Especially with Laser available about the same time in late 2007(although SED is only in Japan). Not much info on Laser, so what are the Pros and Cons of this technology?

-Waiting for Laser- (SED KILLER) :D
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post #2775 of 2847 Old 10-11-2006, 08:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo
I have an "agenda" by the way. I am anti-vaporware. And so far this product is just that: vaporware. It probably won't always be vaporware, but it sure is now. In 2003, people were foolishly waiting for this stuff to be out in 2005. Now it's 2006 and people are waiting for it to be out in 2008.

That'll be 5 years of not enjoying HDTV for this thing "just around the corner."

I'm sorry, but that's just dumb. Leave aside questions of whether the differences will be dramatic. Leave aside questions about price. You are missing the first part of the HD era for no reason. Those of us with HD sports find watching regular sports to be a chore by comparison. Fuzzy, low resolution whatever vs. glorious HD is night and day. A lot more night and day than SED vs. the competition. So whatever the SED argument is, essentially you should be buying now or planning to -- you are just missing too much.

I can't take slightly seriously any other "you have an agenda" claim other than what I outlined. I don't work for a plamsa or LCD mfr., I don't own a CE retail store, I don't make my money from existing displays --> future ones, I can afford a SED the day it comes out if I want one, etc. etc.

There's a huge difference between reality checking and "casting a dark cloud". If I was trying to do the latter, I'd probably stop expressing my interest in potentially buying a SED a year or so after it ships. The reality is that the history of technology teaches us lessons:

(1) Since Zworykin/Farnsworth, two technologies have ever entered the direct-view TV market. Each took around a decade from the first commercially mfr-ed display to being viable for the home. (Even if you included projection technologies, the list of succesful entrants into TV is 5 long... And the viabilty as home products was around a decade for all of them). The ability of a new entrant without any scale economics to compress this timetable is very easily called into question.

(2) The ability to manufacture an xED display has been a holy grail of the display industry for decades. This grail has never been close to anyone's grasp. Billions have been spent, nothing has been achieved to date. Anyone remember Motorola's "breakthrough" a few years back with the 50-inch $800 displays? Laughable at the time to many of us. Now, it should be laughed at by all of you whenever someone makes an announcement in this field. I will note that Motorola -- the corporation -- has done well since that announcement without making any tangible progress in xED display tech.

And before you all jump in and say, "but but Toshiba makes TVs, not Moto", well, Motorola was a TV pioneer years before Toshiba. They worked on active-addressed LCDs as a cheaper alternative to TFTs for years in the 1980s before giving up. Toshiba has invented nearly nothing in TV technology. Again, this isn't to say they can't, but there is no specific credibility here with regard to Toshiba.

Sony has thus far failed to commercialized OLED or xED. Samsung has failed to commercialized OLED or xED. Each has worked on both for some time. Each sells a lot more TVs than Toshiba. There is simply no given that this stuff will ever actually be able to be built in quantity for a good price. Taking it as given demonstrates either blind faith or ignorance of the past. Questioning it represents common sense. And, no, I don't consider those last two statements opinion. You can be annoyed with my choice of words if you wish, but not the conclusion.

(3) Typically, new technologies that are radical at the fundamental level become successes because they satisfy some unique need in the marketplace. The first plasmas became the first viable wall-mounted TV displays ever. The first notebook computers allowed the use of productivity applications on airplanes or in meeting rooms. The first cell phones allowed calls to be completed in cars without being attached to a desk in a home or office.

SED does not satisfy any unique need in the marketplace. And, again, "before you say, 'yes it does, lcd and plasmas are terrible'," let me stop you and explain the difference between incremental change and fundamental change.

There are doubtless people -- some of you are here -- that won't be a flat-panel TV until they get radically better. In the meantime, you give up something substantial to live with your existing solution. You give up size (CRT owners), viewing angle (older projection TV owners), room space (same), enjoyment (non HD owners), whatever. You still get to watch all the content TV and DVD have to offer, albeit with some cost to resolution, color fidelity, etc.

But all SED does for you is give you more contrast and possibly better color fidelity. Maybe higher pixel fill at close distances. (Insert other marginal change here if you must.) There are no more than a small, small fraction of would-be flat-panel owners deterred by the failures of existing technology. Most are deterred by disinterest or price. They like what they have, they just don't care about their TV, they don't want to spend money. When SED comes along, a few of them will check it out but since they primarily just don't care or don't want to spend, they are not buying.

SED buyers, for years 1 to 3, are therefore two kinds of people: videophiles that own HD sets and videophiles that don't. Without overgeneralizing, most of the second group are cheapskates, so they're out through decade's end more or less. The rest are going to see SED as upgrade, the same way dual-core upgrades single core. The same way hybrids upgrade fuel economy over normal gasoline-powered cars. The same way the new BMW 5 series is a bit better than the old.

And, yes, some of you are going to go, "oh my, this 5 series (SED) is world's better than last year's". For you, I don't doubt the conclusion. For most people, the visual-quality differences are going to be imperceptible.

This technology lacks a killer app. Let's just assume it is indeed better. Let's assume it takes real-world, dark-room contrast and improves it 10-fold. (In a lighted room, you're going to remain contrast limited by ambient light.) That's terrific. And if we compare it:

* Landline vs. cell phone: use latter in car, around town, around country
* PC vs. mainframe: have one in home or office, select from 1000s of apps yourself without IT
* Flat panel vs. CRT TV: perfect convergence and focus, 42-60 inch sizes vs much smaller CRTs; hang on wall or against wall vs. giant 200-300 lb boxes
* Laptop vs. desktop: portable use on planes, in Starbucks, at school
* iPod vs. portable CD player: 16 songs vs. 5000, instant selection of tracks by artist, title, etc.

... we see it fails the test of being revolutionary.

Being evolutionary is not a failing per se, but the market doesn't need this technology to grow. If SED never ships, LCD and plasma are still going to easily kill off CRT in all but specialty applications and are also going to make projection TV the choice only of the most price conscious. Whether or not >>you<< want an SED to give you a CRT-like picture, there will never, ever be a 50-inch CRT. I believe, in fact, that the 40-inch CRT is gone from the market.

Call this doom and gloom if you are a fan of SED. Whatever gets you through the night I suppose. I call it a correct assessment of what has been. None of this is to say that Toshiba and Canon can't do something that's never been done before: Introduce a radically different way of making displays and get this price competitive. It is to say it's never been done before. Normally, an enabling technology comes along and allows a new kind of product (microprocessor --> Apple II, IBM PC; tiny hard drive --> iPod; cheap CCD --> digital camera; really cheap CMOS imager --> camera phone) or an indcredibly hard fought multi-year struggle with making the technology feasible to produce (PDP, DLP, TFT-LCD, semiconductors) allows for a somewhat more radical breakthrough.

There are doubtless analogous product introductions to SED where the incremental improvements come from radical new technology (class D amps perhaps? DLP RPTVs vs CRT RPTVs a good example?), but not too many of them have required anywhere near this much money, have had anywhere near the quality of competition in terms of product choices / performance / gigantic manufacturing investment and heft. That's the world that SED is entering. You want to believe that better contrast and is a slam dunk, feel free. It's more of a buzzer beater from the backcourt, though.
Folks; here is how you should write a post that is guaranteed to be 100% Blah, Blah, Blah, free. :D
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post #2776 of 2847 Old 10-11-2006, 08:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vtms
Thanks for the picture vtms. Nice picture. Since you can compare the skin tones etc, of the people in the picture, it provides a nice comparison shot.
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post #2777 of 2847 Old 10-11-2006, 08:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwclark
-Waiting for Laser- (SED KILLER) :D
LOL!!! As tough as we are on Auditor I gotta say that at least he bought a PDP to tide himself over, and that's all most of us have been saying to do from the start.

If Laser TV's are a form of RPTV you can count me out. I've never liked any RPTV and doubt I ever will.
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post #2778 of 2847 Old 10-11-2006, 08:18 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by viper43
I love listening to all the great thing that are mentioned here but I need to make a decision. To help in making that decision I need some basic information. Could you folks help me out?

These are my real questions:

First, What is your best estimate of the time period when SED can be guaranteed to be out -- not just fantasy or wishful thinking ... and not just arrive but be proven out and reliable?

Second, When will it be available in at least a 55 inch size or larger? Ok, I could accept a 50 inch if needed.

Third, what are the expected prices?

thanks for all the help. I would like a superb set before i die and in time to enjoy it for a few years ... (I am 65 now) ... I laugh but I am serious. Thanks again.
Toshiba/Canon say spring 2008 for SED in the United States. I have no reason to believe that won't be the case.

Toshiba/Canon haven't announced a price for the 55 inch SED sets. I'm guessing around 10k MSRP, which is the same the current 50'' Pioneer Elite 1080 plasma with its glorious 3000-1 contrast ratio.
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post #2779 of 2847 Old 10-11-2006, 08:20 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greenland
Thanks for the picture vtms. Nice picture. Since you can compare the skin tones etc, of the people in the picture, it provides a nice comparison shot.

Those pictures look like a typical microdisplay, which is to say "overly bright". :(
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post #2780 of 2847 Old 10-11-2006, 08:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Felgar
If Laser TV's are a form of RPTV you can count me out. I've never liked any RPTV and doubt I ever will.
it's even worse than that.. bad news on the laser front (i.e., still a ways to go):

see post #8 -

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=734481

Mourning the disappearing usage of the -ly suffix. Words being cut-off before they've had a chance to fully form, left incomplete, with their shoelaces untied and their zippers undone. If I quote your post (or post in your thread) without comment, please check your zipper.
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post #2781 of 2847 Old 10-11-2006, 08:25 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwclark
Looks like CES 2007 with several companies showing off Laser sets should be very challenging for SED. Especially with Laser available about the same time in late 2007(although SED is only in Japan). Not much info on Laser, so what are the Pros and Cons of this technology?

-Waiting for Laser- (SED KILLER) :D
I really think you should read up on SED technology like I have :D SED will be so easy on the eyes and yes brilliant with deep space blacks and tremendous shadow detail. Those laser TV's just have eyestrain written all over the patents, nothing but glorified microdisplays :eek: :eek:
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post #2782 of 2847 Old 10-11-2006, 08:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CruelInventions
yea, 10 to 1 that picture comparison was provided by a laser proponent. Reminds of all those before and after pictures for wrinkle reduction treatments where the before picture has hideous, stark lighting and the follow-up picture just so happens to have soft, flattering lighting with lovely make-up and hairstyle. :D

having said that, if these laser panels are in the works for 2007, have they been featured in any of the trade shows? If so, lets see more pictures and information! SED is 2+ years away and they've been featuring them, albeit sporadically and as hand-builts. We may as well make this a dual SED/Laser thread, given the dearth of news about SED.
You will not have long to wait to see what the laser TV is going to look like. CES Jan/2007 in Las Vegas is supposed to have ten different Brands with Laser TVs sets on display, and Mitsubishi and Samsung are included.
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post #2783 of 2847 Old 10-11-2006, 08:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55
Those pictures look like a typical microdisplay, which is to say "overly bright". :(
Especially when you looked at it through your SED colored sunglasses!. :D
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post #2784 of 2847 Old 10-11-2006, 08:40 AM
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vaporware

Reality check: all this talk about SED is interesting and I look forward to seeing these advances

But the fact is that LCD and plasma sets are becoming low cost commodities with greatly improved performance:

I just don't see SED as being a commercial success in this market
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post #2785 of 2847 Old 10-11-2006, 08:40 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Felgar
LOL!!! As tough as we are on Auditor I gotta say that at least he bought a PDP to tide himself over, and that's all most of us have been saying to do from the start.

If Laser TV's are a form of RPTV you can count me out. I've never liked any RPTV and doubt I ever will.
That is what they are, DLP's I believe.
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post #2786 of 2847 Old 10-11-2006, 08:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Felgar
LOL!!! As tough as we are on Auditor I gotta say that at least he bought a PDP to tide himself over, and that's all most of us have been saying to do from the start.

If Laser TV's are a form of RPTV you can count me out. I've never liked any RPTV and doubt I ever will.
It is hard to say if they are really a RPTV in the way that it has always been understood to be. Tech details are still sketchy, but the press report, from the Demo in Australia, said that they are going to be thinner than Plasma panels. I will try and track more specifics on how that can be , as they are published. People attending CES in January should be able to obtain answers for many of the currently unanswerable questions.
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post #2787 of 2847 Old 10-11-2006, 08:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55
That is what they are, DLP's I believe.
Wrong!. No DLP involved. Laser Chips. Three of them, for RGB. That is what Mitsubishi has revealed so far.
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post #2788 of 2847 Old 10-11-2006, 08:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greenland
Laser Chips.
Sounds like a breakfast cereal from the 80's or something :p

Just like women, nobody said this was going to be cheap either...
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post #2789 of 2847 Old 10-11-2006, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by aud19
Sounds like a breakfast cereal from the 80's or something :p

Now I fully understand why you keep telling us that you have to pay a whole lot for a woman!. Money is what makes it worth their while. :D
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post #2790 of 2847 Old 10-11-2006, 09:02 AM
 
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Wrong!. No DLP involved. Laser Chips. Three of them, for RGB. That is what Mitsubishi has revealed so far.
OK, I stand corrected. Is flat panel or RPTV?
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