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post #1 of 2847 Old 01-05-2005, 07:39 PM - Thread Starter
 
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News : Personal technology : Article

Toshiba next-gen recorder slated for year's end
By Richard Shim, CNET News.com
Thursday, January 6 2005 10:21 AM
LAS VEGAS--Toshiba executives said they will release a next-generation DVD recorder by year's end as part of their new product plans.

Wednesday at the Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas, executives said they will release an HD DVD, DVD, CD recorder by the fourth quarter of this year for about US$1,000. HD DVD is an emerging blue laser DVD technology that will enable data storage onto discs with capacities of up to 30GB. The discs will also include interactive and gaming features, according to the company.

Industry groups are supporting different formats, Blu-ray Disc and HD DVD, to replace DVD as an industry standard. Toshiba, NEC and Sanyo are among those promoting HD DVD and Sony, Hewlett-Packard and Dell are supporting Blu-ray.

"HD DVD has not won yet, but I'm 100 percent confident that HD DVD is better than Blu-ray," said Yoshihide Fujii, chief executive of Toshiba Digital Media Network Company.

Analysts had assumed Blu-ray had the momentum in the manufacturing and entertainment industries because of the support of PC makers Dell and HP, which were influential in the progress of the DVD+RW adoption. Recently, however, the HD DVD format gained crucial industry support from several studios, including Paramount Pictures, Universal Studios, Warner Bros. and New Line Cinema.

The Blu-ray camp also recently got support from Disney, as well as from Sony's entertainment properties.

Toshiba executives also announced Wednesday that TVs based on Toshiba's SED (surface-conduction electron emitter display) technology would be available by the first quarter of next year. The electronics maker is joining Royal Philips Electronics, LG Electronics and Samsung in releasing slim-model cathode ray tube-based televisions. The slim models will be 30 percent thinner than CRT sets currently on the market.

The electronics maker will also be coming out with hard drive-based camcorders with storage capacities of 30GB or 60GB, as well as units based on Toshiba's 0.85-inch hard drives with 4GB and 6GB capacities this year.
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post #2 of 2847 Old 01-05-2005, 09:19 PM
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I'd call that a slip of as much as 6 months. Yes. But you'd have been a fool to buy one of the 2005 units anyway.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #3 of 2847 Old 01-05-2005, 09:45 PM
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Rogo: With SED coming maybe next year and various 1080p non Plasma sets being anounced--is there any chance that we might see a 50-inch 1080p Plasma in 2006? Will 1080p Plasmas ever get that small? I ask since most mere mortals have difficulty selling their houses so they can purchase the giant ones.
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post #4 of 2847 Old 01-05-2005, 10:24 PM
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Will 1080p becoming the standard resolution for HD-DVD and Blu-Ray?
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post #5 of 2847 Old 01-05-2005, 10:49 PM
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The article is confusing. Does this line

"The slim models will be 30 percent thinner than CRT sets currently on the market."

refer to SEDs? If so that doesn't sound impressive. I thought SEDs were slated to be 3 to 4 inch flat panels??
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post #6 of 2847 Old 01-05-2005, 11:30 PM
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No, that line specifically talks about thinner CRT tube TV's. THe SED is totally separate.

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post #7 of 2847 Old 01-06-2005, 03:41 AM
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The SED panels themselves are said to be just one half inch thick....

Don't know how thick the prototype SED TV was, though....
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post #8 of 2847 Old 01-06-2005, 05:13 PM
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Any word on how they got around the emitter erosion problem?

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post #9 of 2847 Old 01-06-2005, 08:02 PM
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what's the standard resolutions of HD and blue Ray DVDs? Is it going to be 720 or 1080p? I'm planning on picking up a HD 42 plasma and I want it to be compatible with HD and blue ray DVD.
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post #10 of 2847 Old 01-07-2005, 12:16 AM
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It's really a shame, but the SED is only to be soon by the hoi polloi. I'm neither hoi, nor polloi.

But since no one will be buying one this year apparently, I guess I'm only mildly disappointed.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #11 of 2847 Old 01-17-2005, 12:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by BlazeMaster
what's the standard resolutions of HD and blue Ray DVDs? Is it going to be 720 or 1080p? I'm planning on picking up a HD 42 plasma and I want it to be compatible with HD and blue ray DVD.

Both BluRay and HD-DVD will be 1080. The only flat panels that can resolve this natively right now are decent sized LCD's and very large plasmas. Both 42" and 50" plasmas today have better than decent scalers to down-rez the 1080 signal and give a rather nice picture.
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post #12 of 2847 Old 01-17-2005, 12:40 PM
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I believe the plasmas of today can not handle 1080p even to down rez.

This is also true of Sharps 45" LCD unit, mostly I think.
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post #13 of 2847 Old 01-17-2005, 01:10 PM
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All BluRay and HD-DVD players will offer 1080i output. Fewer than 1% of the existing HD sets in the U.S. accept 1080p.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #14 of 2847 Old 01-17-2005, 01:57 PM
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I don't really consider this a slip since I never thought SED would be on the shelves in 05 anyway. Toshiba never set a very hard date, more of the BS industry statement that they would be out in this or that amount of time/ or time frame, which around here we know means 12-18 months later when talking about a new tech. I won't consider SED to have made a slip unless they don't have them on shelves by end of 06. I can't wait to see one though. david
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post #15 of 2847 Old 01-17-2005, 03:19 PM
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Heck, I would not be surprised if it was very late '06, to be honest with you.
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post #16 of 2847 Old 01-17-2005, 03:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by rogo
All BluRay and HD-DVD players will offer 1080i output. Fewer than 1% of the existing HD sets in the U.S. accept 1080p.
The manual for the commercial 7UY Panasonics does list 1080p for 24 and 30fps as valid component inputs. So, in theory, provided the HD player can be set to output film source at 24p, you should be able to input 1080p via component. Are the commercial Pannys in the 1% you indicate or do you mean 1080p60? I have not seen details on how HD-DVD or Blu-Ray will work for film vs video based material beyond the two new codecs they will have. Will they force all encoding to 1080p60 or provide for more flexible encoding schemes and let the player sort it out?

OTOH, will the 3:2 pulldown in most sets work with 1080i? They work with 480i from DVDs, but will they work with 1080i from an HD-DVD or Blu-Ray player? I'm assuming the HD player will be able to switch to 1080p, 1080i, 720p, or 480i output for maximum compatibility (and confusion). If the 3:2 pulldown works with 1080i, then people won't really need to upgrade to a new set if they insist on 1080p.

BTW, the manual for the PD25/PX25 consumer model tops at 1080i60.
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post #17 of 2847 Old 01-17-2005, 03:26 PM
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dusty,

You're mostly correct about the Sharp units not accepting 1080p (and completely correct if you go by the documentation).

On the 45GX6U unit, it is possible to hookup an HTPC direct via a DVI connection to the panel (bypassing the AVC box), but it's not documented, supported, or guaranteed to work with all video cards. Some people have also managed to hookup scalers to this as well.

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post #18 of 2847 Old 01-17-2005, 04:10 PM
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rrhomes, there were -- in fact -- public statements about shipping in 2005. So it's a slip if they don't meet that goal.

afiggatt, you are assuming component outputs exist on HD-DVD/BluRay players outputting more than 480p. I am increasingly of the opinion that will not happen. And, no, the 3:2 pulldown generally will not work on 1080i sources. But bob + upscale will, of course.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #19 of 2847 Old 01-17-2005, 05:08 PM
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Right you are Afiggatt!!!

And only on component not VGA too. So it must be blade dependent. I'm sure the commercial doesn't have this so does the 6uy.

Has anyone actually tested this. Shouldn't be too difficult with a HTPC just want to confirm that it works.

Atleast in panasonic 3:2 pull down and other goodies have restrictions in digital mode. Lack of digital scaling bugged me so much I'm now running my panel on a component pass through from the cable STB. Whats the big deal! Can't panasonic get atleast the important features to work on different outputs.

Thanx for the confirmation PhoenixSCreen, seems we have the exact opposite situation on our 7uy DVI inputs.
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post #20 of 2847 Old 01-17-2005, 05:51 PM
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So: SED displays, HD-DVD players/recorders, the new shorter CRT designs, new hard-drive camcorders...

It sounds like an awful lot for any electronics company to do in a year. Especially Toshiba. I'm trying to think of any previous year where they led the industry in 3 or more key technologies. I come up blank.
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post #21 of 2847 Old 01-17-2005, 06:50 PM
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rogo
Best guess -- 7x" SED release date and $ = ?

anyone
What are the "cons" (price and size N/A) for SED vs plasma?

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post #22 of 2847 Old 01-17-2005, 07:05 PM
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SED is expected to have burn in concerns similar to CRTs. There is an emitter erosion problem which has never previously been solved. It supposedly has now been solved or mitigated, but there is no explanation as to how. There are some concerns about the vacuum and tight tolerances between the glass plates and emitters, but this is almost a mundane problem.

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post #23 of 2847 Old 01-17-2005, 07:39 PM
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slimer CRTs huh? I thought Hitachi already tried something like that with their current line of CRT RPTVs? If you're talking about the direct views only, then what's the approximate depth of a 34in-er?

As for 1080i and 1080p HD DVD contents....it'll be like watching HD TV(1080i), except with DVD contents w/ less audio compression then right? Then is it safe for me to assume that 1080p will be like watching the 1080i current 1080i contents, but with progressive scanning, therefore a smoother motions and movements?

I for sure will upgrade to HD DVDs, mainly for the benefits of improved audio, also heard that it can incorporates more channels, up to 13.1. So I'd like the be able to use the 42in. Panny plasma that I'm planning on getting to be compatible with the next generation DVDs.
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post #24 of 2847 Old 01-17-2005, 08:08 PM
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Re SED technology, in addition to the emitter erosion problem and potential burn-in, one issue I haven’t seen brought up yet is the environmental/recycling issue re lead shielding – the old CRT technology was vulnerable to stray magnetic fields (e.g. unshielded speaker drivers), but the lead shielding in CRT televisions and computer monitors is bad for the environment (i.e. landfills, ground water, etc.) While the electrons in SED technology only travel a small distance, one might speculate re the difficulty of engineering and manufacturing FCC-compliant consumer electron-spewing devices (especially large screen sizes) without substantial magnetic shielding.

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post #25 of 2847 Old 01-17-2005, 09:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by rogo
afiggatt, you are assuming component outputs exist on HD-DVD/BluRay players outputting more than 480p. I am increasingly of the opinion that will not happen. And, no, the 3:2 pulldown generally will not work on 1080i sources. But bob + upscale will, of course.
Well, the manual for the Panasonic 7UY specifically states that 3:2 pulldown will work for 525i(480i), 625i(575i), 1125i(1080i) signals for the component input. Interestingly the 6UY manual only lists 3:2 pulldown working 480i for component input, so this is a feature that was quietly added with the 7UYs.

I sure hope they don't downgrade the HD-DVD/Blu-Ray players to only outputting 480p via component for copy protection. That could leave a lot of owners of early HD TVs with only component inputs out of luck. And probably a lot of angry buyers who buy the HD player and take it home, only to find that they can only get 480p. That is if they understand the problem. But that is a discussion for another thread, probably in the DVD or HD hardware forum.
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post #26 of 2847 Old 01-17-2005, 09:53 PM
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afiggatt, then perhaps I stand corrected on the 3:2. As for no full-resolution component, here is some data that will doubtless disturb you. Roughly 10 million of the 15 million HD sets sold to date has DVI-HDCP. By the end of this year, it'll be >20 million out of 26 million. That's around when the first HD-DVD players ship.

I doubt more than 100,000 high-def DVD players will be shipped before the end of 2006, at which time the ratio of sets will be 35 out of 40 million.

The risk of upsetting a few people -- the percentage of digital set owners that will be interested in high def DVD in the near future than own sets without DVI/HDCP or HDMI inputs -- is likely to be smaller than the perceived risk of having an unprotected output. Myabe I'm wrong, but....

Joe, 70-something inches? CES 2008? $8000? I dunno....

Mark

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #27 of 2847 Old 01-17-2005, 11:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by rogo
afiggatt, then perhaps I stand corrected on the 3:2.

The risk of upsetting a few people -- the percentage of digital set owners that will be interested in high def DVD in the near future than own sets without DVI/HDCP or HDMI inputs -- is likely to be smaller than the perceived risk of having an unprotected output. Myabe I'm wrong, but....
3:2 pulldown works just fine on my 507uy component inputs for 480i, 1080i & 720p.

There has been a huge number of commercial panels sold to consumers, many of which will never see a digital card added. IMHO Blu Ray and HD-DVD will see 1080p outputs. Hollywoods main concern with Digital has been the perfect digital to digital copies. Copies made using component will be good but won't be the same.

Once HDTV's get commoditized those chinese cost cutters are not going to insert DVI into every digital TV. I bet half the line is S-Video or RCA. To this day half the TV's in Best buy don't even have a component input. The early adopter technophile is much more likely to ask for DVI. Most others will hook up antenna to tuner or STB to TV anywhich way they can.
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post #28 of 2847 Old 01-18-2005, 12:37 AM
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" IMHO Blu Ray and HD-DVD will see 1080p outputs."

I believed it, too. Until CES.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #29 of 2847 Old 01-18-2005, 05:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by rogo

afiggatt, you are assuming component outputs exist on HD-DVD/BluRay players outputting more than 480p. I am increasingly of the opinion that will not happen.
With Hollywood's paranoia, I think you can take that one to the bank. No 1080i over unprotected component outputs.
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post #30 of 2847 Old 01-18-2005, 09:03 AM
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As a happy owner of the






As a happy owner of the Pipneer 433 that has no dvi or hdmi or even a tuner I am glad the sed will be delayed since this will probably be my upgrade display. My 433 has many more miles to go before i move it to another room but the sed sounds like it will have the same WOW factor the plasma did which caused me to dump a sony wega for the plasma when it was only two years old.

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