Added Official US Pioneer Press Release! News about 6th Generation Pioneer PDPs! - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 606 Old 07-05-2005, 07:41 PM - Thread Starter
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From: http://www.guidetohometheater.com/news/070405Pioneer/

In September, Pioneer will launch their sixth-generation plasma displays—known as 6G in techspeak. While the 6G developments will be included in most of the Pioneer line, a few displays will continue to use older panel technology. Buyers looking for Pioneer's best should check carefully.

The 6G displays promise much better blacks (claimed to be 1/3 the levels of Pioneer's current sets), increased light output, improved color, lower energy consumption, and other benefits. A new method of driving the pixels is also said to pave the way toward future 1080p plasmas from Pioneer, though none of these upcoming models are 1080p.

The quality of the new plasmas, as shown on the 6G top-of-the-line Pioneer Elite PRO-1130HD, was clearly evident in several impressive demonstrations. The blacks appeared to be dramatically darker than those of the PRO-1120HD I recently reviewed.

The new models will also be considerably cheaper. That 50-inch (diagonal) PRO-1130HD, the 6G flagship, will list for $6500. The smaller, 42-inch PRO-930HD will be priced at $5000. Most of the other models will be priced somewhat lower than that, except the $10,000 PDP-6100HD, a 61-inch design that uses older panel technology.
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post #2 of 606 Old 07-05-2005, 08:04 PM
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Now this is what I have been waiting for. 66% better blacks...oh my...that would put the nit level between .04 to .02.
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post #3 of 606 Old 07-05-2005, 08:48 PM
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That sounds interesting. ;)





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Check Out the all-new BruZZi's Panasonic Plasma FAQ
Links to Plasma Stands, Wallmounts, Murals, Lifts, Speakers, Frames, Bezels & Motorized Artwork.
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post #4 of 606 Old 07-05-2005, 08:54 PM
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The more I think about it....66% better black by far outpaces Panasonic as the 8th Gen are only 4-6% better than the 50 series Pioneers.
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post #5 of 606 Old 07-05-2005, 09:01 PM
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So these are new Elites? September? Another reason to wait?

Everytime I decide on the model I like to get there is something new...
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post #6 of 606 Old 07-05-2005, 09:09 PM
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Yeah, the Elites always come out first. Look for the xx60 Pioneers in January 2006. I personally cannot wait that long. I will be one of the first with this model.
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post #7 of 606 Old 07-05-2005, 09:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ld100
So these are ne Elites? September? Another reason to wait?

Everytime I decide on the model I like to get there is something new...
That's what I was saying on the other thread. I'm so glad I already bit the bullet and bought the 5050. By the time these new models are widely available and the initial bugs are taken care of, it will be early 06 -- and they'll go ahead and announce the 7th generation! There is absolutely no winning in this game.
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post #8 of 606 Old 07-05-2005, 09:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ld100
So these are ne Elites? September? Another reason to wait?

Everytime I decide on the model I like to get there is something new...
What are you upgrading from?

Unless it's another high-end display, you'll probably find most HD panels produced in the last 1-2 years (from most manufacturers) will exceed your exceptations in every way, esp. if you're upgrading from a more conventional non-HD TV set. Buying the "best" is mostly meaningless when you're dealing with a significant upgrade.

On the other hand, if you're upgrading from another high-end display, it does warrant some further examination.

There's always something new. PDP technology is still very young... it has a lot of iterations to go before the the flow of new panels with snazzy new technology starts to slow down a bit.
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post #9 of 606 Old 07-05-2005, 09:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice
The more I think about it....66% better black by far outpaces Panasonic as the 8th Gen are only 4-6% better than the 50 series Pioneers.
Where do you get the 4-6% stat?

A 4-6% advantage in black level should be virtually indistinguishable, but in a darkened room, Panasonic panels are definitely blacker than 5050 Pioneers.

The pricing of the Elite models are encouraging. The xx60 models should be priced close to the Panasonic PX500 series.
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post #10 of 606 Old 07-05-2005, 10:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrock65
Where do you get the 4-6% stat?

A 4-6% advantage in black level should be virtually indistinguishable, but in a darkened room, Panasonic panels are definitely blacker than 5050 Pioneers.

The pricing of the Elite models are encouraging. The xx60 models should be priced close to the Panasonic PX500 series.
I had a PD50u for about a week and compared it to my 4350. The black levels were only slightly better on the Panny.... so slight you really had to stare to see a difference. And yes I know the the PD50u is a ED but its has the same, if not better blacks than the PX50/500.
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post #11 of 606 Old 07-05-2005, 10:26 PM
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My concern is that there will be sacrifices made in areas other than the improved black levels in order to hit that $6500 price point even allowing for the falling prices of Plasmas. Does that mean we can reasonably anticipate a 5060 for $4500 to $5500 MSRP in 2006? Does that seem possible?
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post #12 of 606 Old 07-05-2005, 10:57 PM
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Panasonic's blacks are currently around 2/3 better than Pioneer's (at worst, the Panasonic black has been 1/2 of Pioneer's). This sounds like a gap closer / gap eliminator.

And I see no reason why we can't anticipate the 5060 at the $3500-4500 MSRP next year.

Setting the stage for 1080p is also good news. It is no coincidence the 61" is using the old panel. It is obviously being set up to be the first of the 1080p panels.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #13 of 606 Old 07-06-2005, 12:56 AM
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Cool, thanks for the info/link, rogo.

I'm glad to see the Pios finally catching up (or overtaking?) in black level. That can only be good for competition. Now Panasonic can't rest on its laurels.

What I like very much about the Pio is the native 72Hz support. So now we can get the best of both worlds: Panasonic's black levels and Pios 72Hz support in the 6G Pios. Sounds great to me! Now just add native 50Hz, 75Hz or 100Hz support for us Europeans, please.
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post #14 of 606 Old 07-06-2005, 06:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glashub
My concern is that there will be sacrifices made in areas other than the improved black levels in order to hit that $6500 price point even allowing for the falling prices of Plasmas. Does that mean we can reasonably anticipate a 5060 for $4500 to $5500 MSRP in 2006? Does that seem possible?
Yeah I question that too. Logic says that the darker your blacks, the lower your brightness will be. But they also said it will be brighter than the current gen. I definately think you will see a 5060 in the $4500 - $5500 price range as msrp without a loss in quality.
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post #15 of 606 Old 07-06-2005, 11:23 AM
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Sign me up for one of the new Elites at that price range :D
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post #16 of 606 Old 07-06-2005, 11:57 AM
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" Logic says that the darker your blacks, the lower your brightness will be."

Only if you use a filter to obtain the darker blacks.

It sounds like Pioneer has made a key breakthrough based on this report. The challenge with 1080p plasmas has been two fold (1) you need to make smaller barrier ribs / cells (2) you need to be able to obtain the same peak brightness as before with the smaller cell.

The latter of those has proved tricky.

I believe that they have changed their "standby state" somehow to help achieve a darker black and probably darkened the front filter, to boot. Why? Because I'm fairly convinced that they have also made the breakthrough of brighter individual cells that can be run for 60K hours. Pioneer had brightness to spare for awhile. They couldn't use it before without making the blacks even worse and possibly blowing out highlight and shadow detail.

Apparently, they've found some ways to mitigate this.

I look very forward to seeing the results.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #17 of 606 Old 07-06-2005, 12:06 PM
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rogo, do you think that black level will suffer when going to 1080p compared to the current resolution? Thanks...
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post #18 of 606 Old 07-06-2005, 12:06 PM
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The reviewer wrote:

"The blacks appeared to be dramatically darker than those of the PRO-1120HD I recently reviewed."

He doesn't sound too convincing about this. I for one do hope that Pioneer did make significant progress in this area.

I have always liked their PDPs.

Dave

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post #19 of 606 Old 07-06-2005, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo
" Logic says that the darker your blacks, the lower your brightness will be."

Only if you use a filter to obtain the darker blacks.

It sounds like Pioneer has made a key breakthrough based on this report. The challenge with 1080p plasmas has been two fold (1) you need to make smaller barrier ribs / cells (2) you need to be able to obtain the same peak brightness as before with the smaller cell.

The latter of those has proved tricky.

I believe that they have changed their "standby state" somehow to help achieve a darker black and probably darkened the front filter, to boot. Why? Because I'm fairly convinced that they have also made the breakthrough of brighter individual cells that can be run for 60K hours. Pioneer had brightness to spare for awhile. They couldn't use it before without making the blacks even worse and possibly blowing out highlight and shadow detail.

Apparently, they've found some ways to mitigate this.

I look very forward to seeing the results.
Yeah, you make alot of sense. I wonder how long it will be before we can see some actual specs.
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post #20 of 606 Old 07-06-2005, 02:04 PM
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I was about to buy the Fujitsu 50, but this looks to be as good or better AND $1000 cheaper. Does this take over as the top of the class??
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post #21 of 606 Old 07-06-2005, 02:14 PM
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Well, I'd guess that the Fujitsu still has a superior deinterlacer/scaler etc. But the 6G Pio panel might be superior to the Pany panel used in the 50" Fujitsu. But honestly, we should wait until we actually see the new generation panel before judging.
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post #22 of 606 Old 07-06-2005, 07:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooneydriver
The new models will also be considerably cheaper. That 50-inch (diagonal) PRO-1130HD, the 6G flagship, will list for $6500. The smaller, 42-inch PRO-930HD will be priced at $5000. Most of the other models will be priced somewhat lower than that, except the $10,000 PDP-6100HD, a 61-inch design that uses older panel technology.
Those are some very aggressive prices, especially when you compare this MSRP for the 1130HD with the 1120HD and 1110HD when they came out in 2004 and 2003...

No self-respecting AV boutique would sell a PDP for that cheap (I'm half-joking) so I suppose Pioneer wants to shift the battle with Panasonic onto the floors of the big box stores...

Ross
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post #23 of 606 Old 07-06-2005, 07:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo

It sounds like Pioneer has made a key breakthrough based on this report. The challenge with 1080p plasmas has been two fold (1) you need to make smaller barrier ribs / cells (2) you need to be able to obtain the same peak brightness as before with the smaller cell.
Unless my math is wrong, cutting the dark end to one-third of its previous level while maintaining the same top-end brightness will triple the contrast ratio. The reported contrast ratios for plasmas are already (notoriously) huge, so is Pioneer going to claim a 9000:1 contrast ratio for this new display...?

If Rogo is correct and they actually brightened the high end and slapped a darker filter on the glass, then I'm wondering how they're gonna coax 60,000h of life out of those wee cells...

...I guess that's why Pioneer pays their engineers lots o' yen.

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post #24 of 606 Old 07-06-2005, 07:15 PM
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Ross,

Pioneers come in at about 1000:1 Contrast, so using your triple theory that would put it at about 3000:1 - sounds about right to me:)

Dave

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post #25 of 606 Old 07-06-2005, 07:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cheridave
Pioneers come in at about 1000:1 Contrast, so using your triple theory that would put it at about 3000:1 - sounds about right to me:)
Yes, that puts it right around Panasonic's number...
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post #26 of 606 Old 07-06-2005, 08:15 PM
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Hopefully they will also fix the panel buzz and install a 'run silent' fan. that plus the black issue have been the three complaints about the Pio. Frankly I've always been impressed with their rendition of colors and vibrant punch to PQ. Competition is good in this business now about those 1080P plasmas, sooner the better as RPTV will be all over 1080P before the end of this year notwithstanding source material issues.
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post #27 of 606 Old 07-06-2005, 08:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo

Setting the stage for 1080p is also good news. It is no coincidence the 61" is using the old panel. It is obviously being set up to be the first of the 1080p panels.

Why use an old line for the 61"? That just confuses me. The only explaination that I can imagine is that since more smaller panels are expected to be sold, that they should come off the new line. This leaves the old production area available for the large low yield and low production large panels.

Damn. I was all excited until I read that the 61" plasma is going to have a 1000:1 CR while everything else is 3x more.
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post #28 of 606 Old 07-06-2005, 08:28 PM
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I suspect a new 61 inch will be announced at CES, with 1080p. But that's just suspicion.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #29 of 606 Old 07-06-2005, 09:22 PM
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Interesting that they claim higher light output and lower energy consumption. I wonder if the new panels are dissipating much less heat.

Bob
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post #30 of 606 Old 07-07-2005, 06:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ross in Toronto
Yes, that puts it right around Panasonic's number...
So Pioneer has finally reverse engineered the HD7UY :D
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