MASTER BURN-IN/BREAK-IN THREAD: ALL POSTS HERE ONLY! - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 2990 Old 03-20-2004, 12:13 AM - Thread Starter
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MASTER BURN-IN THREAD --> All questions and information related to BURN-IN must go here only please!

This thread is a sticky on the Plasma and LCD Flat Panel Displays Forum: there is a SEPARATE thread for RPTV

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post #2 of 2990 Old 03-20-2004, 06:13 AM
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WHAT IS "BURN-IN"

Typically, "burn-in" is defined as an uneven wear of a phosphor based display unit (Plasma and CRT for example). It is the phenomena of being able to "see" the remnants of something that was being "displayed" even though you are watching totally different content. It is not image retention which goes away.

HOW DOES IT OCCUR

It occurs due to content being viewed not in the aspect ratio of the display unit thereby aging phosphors in the display differently. For example, 4:3 content is being viewed as 4:3 content on a 16:9 display device with the side bars as "black". Viewing in this way for extended periods of time (not defined) will cause the phosphors in the middle of the unit to age faster than the phosphors in the black side bar. When phosphors age they decrease in brightness.

WHAT PERCENTAGE OF PLASMA OWNERS EXPERIENCE "BURN-IN"

Although there is no, as yet, survey of all plasma owners, many owners of such devices have not experienced it. Rough guess, less than 1%. The few that have would, IMHO, be guilty of "abusing" the display.

IS THERE ANYTHING THAT CAN BE DONE TO CIRCUMVENT "BURN-IN"

Absolutely, the list is as follows:

1) Get your display "calibrated". Now if that entails a professional ISF calibration (~$400) or a calibration via Avia or DVE (~$40). That's your call. Alot of "damage" can be curtailed by dialing down the brightness and contrast from the get go.
2) Put some sort of "color" on the side bars when watching 4:3 content in its native aspect ratio. If you absolutely hate stretching 4:3 content, that is filling the 16:9 aspect ratio of the unit, then make sure that the side bars are set to either "gray" or some other color than "black".
3) Did I mention to dial down the contrast and brightness?
4) Vary your viewing habits. In this day and age of 16:9 DVD's, HD content and SD content this should not be difficult to be achieved.
5) Dial down the contrast and brightness, are you getting this part yet?
6) Plasmas are very susceptible to "burn-in" when in their infancy as the phosphors have not had a chance to age. A few hundred hours of watching varied material to age the phosphors is not unrealistic and will probably due a lot to curtail possible damage.
7) TURN DOWN THE CONTRAST AND BRIGHTNESS OF THE DISPLAY. Sorry, but I firmly believe that this is crucial to preventing burn-in damage.

OKAY, I'M A (put your own explicative here), I HAVE "BURN-IN" IS THEIR ANYTHING THAT CAN BE DONE

Are you sure it is "burn-in"? It may be "image retention", which is different. Image retention is the phenomena of being able to "see" what was just on the screen prior to turning off the unit. Image retention goes away and has no effect on the display. It may, however, be a sign that your contrast and brightness are too high. Burn-in stays on the screen forever, never disappears and really bad burn in can make text unintelligible.

Back to the question, is there anything that can be done to fix burn in? Yes, there is. As stated before "burn-in" is the uneven wear, or aging, of phosphors in the panel. You can reduce it by reversing the image of the screen. For example, let's say that you have the middle of the screen burned in because you used black bars when watching 4:3 content. Just put up grey bars or white bars for the side and don't display anything in the middle. How? Just unplug your STB from the unit when in 4:3 mode. The time it takes to "erase" the burn-in will be in direct proportion to the amount of time that was spent watching 4:3 content with the black bars

I WANT TO LEARN MORE ABOUT BURN-IN

There is alot of information concerning this topic. A "Google" or "Yahoo" search will yield more results

AVS Forum Burn-in FAQ

Fujitsu Burn In Prevention

Extron Device to Help With alleviating Burn In

IS A PLASMA THE RIGHT CHOICE FOR ME

Unfortunately, no one can tell you definitively whether a plasma, or any viewing device for that matter, will be the best choice for you. There are too many considerations to take into account. Plasma displays offer one of the best pictures that can be found today. Only you are aware of what you would use the display for. Only you know what your budget is. Only you can make that choice.

CONCLUSION

Plasma displays can offer the viewer a very clean, detailed and saturated picture. Here are some shots from a fellow poster who was kind enough to show us his picture quality from his Panasonic 42" ED unit. A "looking through the window" type of experience. As with any technological device, Plasmas can also be a very expensive wall hanging if "abused".

MY OWN PERSONAL EXPERIENCES

After perusing this forum for several months and visiting several stores to see several different plasmas. We ended up "settling" for the Panasonic 42" ED unit. I must say that this unit displays one of the finest pictures that I have ever seen, probably not saying much , from any type of display device. I base my personal preferences after owning a 50" 4:3 Mitsubishi Diamond Screen rear projection television as well as your average run-of-the-mill 27" and 32" 4:3 devices and viewing a FP in a dedicated theater. My wife, not being as enthusiastic about this purchase as myself, has even stated that the PQ is much better with the same source (DVD's). We have enjoyed this unit now for close to one year and it has ~2,000 hours with, I am happy to report, no sign of "burn-in" and no sign of the display starting to dim.

My father, who is a technical writer for a subcontractor that does work on submarine antennae for Raytheon has always told me, "Be kind to your electronics and they will be kind to you." I am happy to report that his credo is doing very well by us.
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post #3 of 2990 Old 03-20-2004, 08:04 PM
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New member on the block, I have Sony KE42TS2 and noticed during dark or all black scene a lighter shade 4:3 image retention. Was extremely upset since I have mine set on Widezoom for all my viewing, until I read a thread concerning burn-ib in this forum whereby if I selected power save this ghosting should clear. I happy to say it is getting better, my question is what causes it if I do all of my viewing in the widemode.
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post #4 of 2990 Old 03-20-2004, 09:01 PM
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How can you have 4:3 image retention or burn in if you're not watching any 4:3?

That simply makes no sense.

Tell us more.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #5 of 2990 Old 03-20-2004, 11:37 PM
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I believe the term is temporary burn-in, the shape of the middle section of my screen is similar to the 4:3 box. The outer edges are more black compared to this middle section. Additionally, I could make out the TV-Guide logo burn-in, again this is only obvious when the background is black or when switching inputs with no signal. By setting my power to 'reduce' the logo as well as this box like shape are gradually dissipating. I have seen within this forum discussion about the voltage being the reason for such an effect, if so, why the middle of the screen? Plasma is unlike CRT tube based display where lets say the concentration would be in the middle.
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post #6 of 2990 Old 03-21-2004, 05:46 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Sonny Curry
The outer edges are more black compared to this middle section. Additionally, I could make out the TV-Guide logo burn-in, again this is only obvious when the background is black or when switching inputs with no signal.

That doesn't make any sense at all.
-If you watch widescreen zoom all the time (as you said before) you should not get any burn-in.
-If you watched 4:3 content all the time with black bars on the sides then you could get burn-in, but the result would be that the middle portions of your viewing area are darker than the outside. This is because the phosphors in the middle have 'burned more' and become less bright than the less used ones on the outside.
-With no signal or the screen completely black then you should not see anything at all even if you had burn-in because none of the phosphors would be activated.

Maybe you are talking about after image or image retention.
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post #7 of 2990 Old 03-21-2004, 09:29 PM
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I believe that is the correct term for it, why though is it taking so long to disappear? When I watch some DVD with the black bars on the top & bottom that only lasts a few minutes.
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post #8 of 2990 Old 03-22-2004, 10:52 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Mayor McCheese

-With no signal or the screen completely black then you should not see anything at all even if you had burn-in because none of the phosphors would be activated.

Are you sure about that? CRT's can definitely burn to the point where you see the image even with the set completely de-energized. I don't know about plasmas, but I wouldn't think they'd be all that different.

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post #9 of 2990 Old 03-22-2004, 12:06 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by peebee
Are you sure about that? CRT's can definitely burn to the point where you see the image even with the set completely de-energized. I don't know about plasmas, but I wouldn't think they'd be all that different.

No, I'm not really sure about anything I write

I was just stating that based on my understanding of what burn-in really is. Because 'black' really is a signal and not a lack of signal then I'm probably wrong. But if none of the phosphors are being activated I would think there would be no way to distinguish between the brighter and darker areas.
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post #10 of 2990 Old 03-22-2004, 01:25 PM
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After the recent discussions in this forum, I think it's generally agreed that there is some slight danger of "burn-in" for plasma screens due to uneven phosphor wear. So here's two features that I think manufacturers should include in their next generation panels (maybe I should patent these!):

1. Have an automatic screen saver mode built-in. My DVD player already does this, so I'm covered there, but I have a TiVo as well, and it's not uncommon for a static image to be on the screen for quite some time, whether it's a paused program or the "Now Playing" screen. Normally of course I turn off the TV, but I shouldn't have to: why can't the screen detect a truly static image after say a programmable period and turn off the screen for me?

(Of course, the "Now Playing" screen isn't truly static, so that would defeat this feature. Maybe the new HD TiVo will include an automatic screen saver function, or at least someone will hack the feature in -- it's gotta be easier for the TiVo to know when it's paused than for the screen to detect an unchanging input...)

2. Have a customized screen wipe function. Most panels seem to have a feature to drive a grey or white image to the screen to "wipe" the screen (I think this is mostly for image retention, not necessarily burn-in, but it should alleviate burn-in as well). And, most screens have a lifetime counter that measures how long a screen has been turned on.

So why not combine the two, and have a counter for each pixel that measures how long (and at what intensity) each pixel has been driven? Periodically, you could run the "screen wear leveling" routine and it would even out the phosphor aging of the screen. (You could even combine this with the screen saver: I bet it would look pretty cool seeing it in action -- maybe like the degauss function on computer CRT monitors.)

I'd guess you'd want a 48-bit value for each R-G-B (or maybe YPbPr?) at each pixel location. 48 bits gives you 16-bit intensity x 60 Hz x 60 seconds x 60 minutes x 24 hours x 365 days x 136 years. For an HD display at 1024x768, that works out to less than 16MB of storage -- insignificant compared to the cost of a panel.

So, what do you guys think? Is this workable? Does it solve the problem of screen burn-in?

- Matt
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post #11 of 2990 Old 03-22-2004, 02:36 PM
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A major risk of burn-in is the "I fell asleep while watching a DVD on my plasma and when it was over the DVD menu screen was displayed for six hours" syndrome. Been there, done that. No screen saver will protect you from this because most DVD menu screens have some movement that will prevent the screen saver from coming on. A better idea is to employ a timer in the plasma or DVD player (like the Panasonic xp30) that can be set in anticipation of lights out.

The screen wipe function usually is a white bar that moves across the screen. If any white areas are displayed on the plasma, such as the lettering on a DVD menu, the screen wipe will do exactly diddly-squat.

The idea of a counter for each pixel is not technologically or economically feasible.
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post #12 of 2990 Old 03-22-2004, 03:24 PM
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1. No Burn-in issue

That would be my first choice.
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post #13 of 2990 Old 03-22-2004, 04:42 PM
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As long as plasmas are constructed with phospors there will be burn-in issues.
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post #14 of 2990 Old 03-23-2004, 02:31 PM
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Quote:


So, what do you guys think? Is this workable? Does it solve the problem of screen burn-in?

Yes, that would work (I've already suggested it myself.)

It would be very easy to do and not add much to the cost. It is just a bit more memory combined with the digital processing that is already there.
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post #15 of 2990 Old 03-25-2004, 04:08 PM
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You say that you can also make out the TV Guide logo. Is it possible that you watch the TV Guide a lot? Does it have a center area that matches the lighter area? I don't have it so I'm not sure. But, even so, check your contrast and brightness settings as well. You should not see the logo unless you have it on much of the time or you are torching the panel.

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post #16 of 2990 Old 03-25-2004, 08:59 PM
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The TV Guide logo comes up when you switch channels (Comcast Cable), and yes I do believe that the box resembles what accompanies the logo. I have turned down the contrast and gradually this box is disappearing. This is my first and last Plasma, I feel extreme care must be taken with this type of display (burn-in, reduced life, etc.) especially given the cost associated.

However, if you disregard the cost, it is the most bright and clear display I have seen, which was my reason for buying it.


FYI - Gear

Display - Sony KE-42TS2 (partially calibrated using Joe Kane's DVE disc)
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Surge Protection/AC filter - PS Audio Ultimate Outlet 'High Current'.

As you can see, I should be the last person to talk about cost....can wait to get the 55" Fujitsu, come-on lotto numbers ..
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post #17 of 2990 Old 03-27-2004, 02:38 PM
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Does anybody use a Video Shift Device that moves the input signal slightly? I am talking about the device made by Extron model VS-200-SL. This device moves the video signal horizontally and vertically so slowly that it is not seen by your eyes, but allows the phospher to cool.
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post #18 of 2990 Old 03-27-2004, 03:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:


Originally posted by DodgeViper
Does anybody use a Video Shift Device that moves the input signal slightly? I am talking about the device made by Extron model VS-200-SL. This device moves the video signal horizontally and vertically so slowly that it is not seen by your eyes, but allows the phospher to cool.

what you refer to is also called a wobbler or orbiter: often a menu feature built in to many current plasma displays

However a former member Eric B pointed out that this does not really prevent burn-in: it just moves the image around a bit- and causes some image shift issues on some displays: perhaps better than nothing, but don't rely on it alone to prevent burn-in:

buying a separate box to do this is of questionable value for HT apps IMO
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post #19 of 2990 Old 03-30-2004, 08:10 AM
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if some widescreen format material is in a wider aspect that 16:9 it will have black bars top and bottom - would watching for example a 2 hour film that is >16:9 wide aspect cause burn in at all - or just a temporary burn?
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post #20 of 2990 Old 03-31-2004, 08:30 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by benji2004
if some widescreen format material is in a wider aspect that 16:9 it will have black bars top and bottom - would watching for example a 2 hour film that is >16:9 wide aspect cause burn in at all - or just a temporary burn?

Neither, it takes a much longer time than that. Nobody knows for sure but I suspect you would have to really work at it to create burn in with any of the newer plasmas. I've watched movies with the black bars, played video games with static images, and watched some 4x3 material with grey bars (although I really prefer JUST mode now) and I haven't even seen a hint of burn-in. I've taken all the necessary precautions and have left the burn-in worries behind me.
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post #21 of 2990 Old 04-01-2004, 07:30 AM
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At our store, we had a Pioneer 5030 (last years model) that we were trying to get rid of. Being that it was an old model we only had the display to sell so we moved it to the front of the store and hooked a dvd player up to it. For at least 4 days, 9 hours per day it was frozen on one screen. In big white block letters it said "ALAN CUMMINGS". I'm sure it was frozen like that more, but I was only there 4 of the 7 days before it sold. The cheap dvd player would freeze before the movie even started playing and no one notice or cared enough to change the screen. Anyways, at the end of each day when it was time to turn it off I would switch it to a different input to see if there was any burn in. I never saw even the slightest hint of "ALAN CUMMINGS" anywhere on any screen.

We also have a 42" Toshiba that is an open box item. It's set off to the side to make room for current models and unfortunatly where it's setting there isn't access to an HD feed. It's been in 4:3 mode with BLACK side bars for at least 2 weeks 12 hours per day. This also shows no signs of burn in or un even wear as of yet.

This has alevieted some of my concerns as I try to decide which plasma is right for me.

I have no association with Best Buy. So save the cheap shots for someone else.
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post #22 of 2990 Old 04-01-2004, 08:06 AM
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Someone please give an authoritative view on this; some others in other threads are saying viewing 2:35:1 for extended periods will cause burn-in.

They can't actually mean that if I decide to rent LotR 1-3 and devote 12 hours to watching all three back to back I am going to cause permanent damage to a display, can they? (Permanent damage to myself, perhaps, but to the display? )
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post #23 of 2990 Old 04-01-2004, 08:24 AM
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Not for 12 hours, maybe, but 2.35:1 burn-in is a possibility as much as the 1.33:1 burn-in. But as someone has already mentioned, it's not as bad as you think.

Hong.

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post #24 of 2990 Old 04-01-2004, 07:22 PM
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I think I have finally figured it out (the box like shape) in the middle of my screen, see my previous thread. I had done the reduction of contrast and brightness using Digital Video Essentials disc, and the box like shape resembles that image where you have two box shape side by side and you try and reduce contrast & brightness to match the optimum box! I remember having it on my screen for a long time, could that be the cause since I never view 4:3 material (mine set to Widezoom mode)?
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post #25 of 2990 Old 04-04-2004, 08:00 PM
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I didn't want to bring up a store name but since Best Buy Guy spoke up first, here goes.

I was in BB the other day. They had a 50" Pioneer - last year's model, marked down from CDN $16K to CDN $8K. I looked at it for a while then flagged down the salesman. "Is this on sale because of the burn-in in the corner?" I asked. He said something about it being impossible, blah, blah, until I pointed it out to him - a big ESPN HD logo burnt into the bottom right corner. It seems they run a loop all day long on their TV's and that logo is there about 5 minutes out of every 15 or so. I offered to take it off his hands seeing as how it was ruined and everything. He said he'd go talk to the manager. I went over to look at the other plasmas on display and pretty soon 3 or 4 of his colleagues came around to look at the burnt display. I called them over to look at the 42' display 2 units down 'cause, sure enough, it was burnt with the same logo. I wonder if they'll unload them on some unsuspecting fool who believes that plasmas don't burn in.

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post #26 of 2990 Old 04-05-2004, 08:22 AM
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I imagine we run the same feed as your local BB. Depending on the time of year, the ESPN HD logo is on more often then 5 of 15 minutes. For example, during January (super bowl) and the few weeks before march madness starts. There is also a Discovery HD logo 5 of 15 minutes. As I'm in the market for a plasma of my own I've been keeping an eye on them to try to weed out misinformation. We've only been open since November, and so far they havn't shown any signs of burn in. I've even gone as far to view them with all the lights in the store are off (after closing). I did this to see if I could find evidence of burn in and to see if the low black levels of the pioneer would bother me. So far I'm very pleased that burn in doesn't seem to be the HUGE problem the synics out there make it.

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post #27 of 2990 Old 04-05-2004, 09:12 AM
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Best Buy Guy - I should not have singled you or your store out and I hope it didn't cause any offence. I like your store and worship there on a regular basis

The timing of the loop was just a guess. I haven't really timed it. The burn-in is only visible against a white or very light screen. It shows up as a light brown image of the border of the logo and faint lettering. It is quite pronounced on the older 50" which the sales guy said had been out for 6 weeks. It is much fainter on the newer 42" unit.

Cynics are not created in a vacuum. I have a Toshiba CRT RPTV that I burned playing XBox - my fault, I know. But, once burned, twice shy. The funny thing is that Future Shop (owned by BB in Canada) are now bundling XBox with a Tosh CRT RPTV. I'm sure they must caution people not to actually use them together. But this is a plasma thread and I'm off-topic.

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post #28 of 2990 Old 04-05-2004, 01:36 PM
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Maybe I'm taking this whole burn in thing too far but:

Like most of you, I'm away from my Plasma for up to 12 hours a day while I'm at work.

My plamsa does not have a pixel orbitter, so what is the best way to educate non technical visitors and housemates about not burning in the screen?

For example my Mom was visiting and accidently activated the menu screen on my tube 27" -- while no damage was done, she did not know how to escape this menu and low and behold left it up there until I returned home from work - about 7 hours later. Luckily I did not have my plasma TV at that time, but this is just an example.

I wonder the best way to teach plasma ettiquette to guests? I dont want to scare them to death about damaging a $7500.00 TV, such they're afraid to turn it on - but I need to find a balancing point somewhere. What have been your strategies on educating your guests/kids/non-technical viewers, in the absence of your supervision?

Jason
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post #29 of 2990 Old 04-05-2004, 01:41 PM
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Jason,

I not sure what plasma you bought, but most plasma has a screensaver mode you can set. (i.e. panny)..
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post #30 of 2990 Old 04-05-2004, 01:43 PM
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All in One Remote with an OFF button that is like a general reset - when in doubt, turn off the plasma if nothing else is the rule of thumb at my house. haven't had any "real" problems aside from the wife leaving it on when she's in another room...for the HTPC portion, a inlcuded a blank screen as a screen saver after 1 minute of inactivity - never had a problem there...

I guess we shouldn't get too attached to these objects, since anything IS possible, and burn in can occur...

I'd hate to be the person at my house that causes it...

He who laughs last, thinks slowest...
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