Early 1080p adopters beware: CES 2006 does not look good - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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Old 01-07-2006, 12:39 PM - Thread Starter
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many on this forum are looking for the latest news of 1080p displays from CES 2006:

yet there are other more troubling announcements with regard to source material and interface issues that may cause early adopters (EA) to think twice before they spend big bucks on new displays that are 1080p capable without knowing the true 'state of the art'

the fact is the 'state of the art' of HD source material is lagging significantly behind any 1080p display, and the HDMI interface is not working as intended

The whole industry is still undergoing a Sea Change and is in a state of flux

The point of this thread is to warn EA not to jump in too quickly: it may be best to wait

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Old 01-07-2006, 12:40 PM - Thread Starter
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http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post6865516

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post6794772

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Old 01-07-2006, 12:55 PM
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Can someone explain what all the hype is surrounding 1080p? I understood 480p, 720p, and, 768p when there were displays that could take that feed and render it without scaling. I understood 1080i as that's what the dominant signal output by HD equipment is and that's what the panels and projection sets understand.

The hype around 1080p escapes me at the moment since there is really no equipment delivering the 1080p signal that I'm aware of (other than a really low end DVD player I read about with a demo HD disc).

So, that said, is the whole 1080p display issue basically saying that there are panels out there that can take 1080i, scale it up, and display it as 1080p?

Thanks.
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Old 01-07-2006, 01:24 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markrubin
Early 1080p adopters beware: CES 2006 does not look good
This post coming from you lends a lot of credibility that 1080p PDPs may not be ready for "prime-time" just yet. After all, buying the Pioneer Pro-FHD1 which is theoretically priced at $8000 (without tuner) or the Panasonic TH-65PX600U which will cost at least $9000 is not the same thing as going to Wal*Mart to pick up a new toaster.
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Old 01-07-2006, 01:28 PM
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1080P sources: 1080i TV at full frame, a PC via DVI to play games, BluRay at 1080p24, and ofcourse the up and coming PS3 with some games being able to do 1080p60.


All of which are things I want.

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Old 01-07-2006, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by necrolop
1080P sources: 1080i TV at full frame, a PC via DVI to play games, BluRay at 1080p24, and ofcourse the up and coming PS3 with some games being able to do 1080p60.


All of which are things I want.
But you should still listen to the advice of your moderator, he has been around long enough and has seen many technology come and go. The Blue-ray's on display were 1080P60 not 1080P24 , there you go.
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Old 01-07-2006, 01:49 PM
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yeah we'll see how great 1080p games on the ps3 will be with huge geometry, HDR, SSAA, etc effects :D
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Old 01-07-2006, 01:58 PM
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yes, read the threads and do your research before putting down your dollars on a 1080p display/source.

You want to nail down that it can accept a 1080p signal through it's inputs (basically AFAIK this means waiting until HDMI 1.3 is out) and find out what the players/sources will output to make sure there is a match.

It's a bit of FUD, but everything I have been reading is throwing up huge warning signs. The future looks bright, but the connection chain (in the CE domain, outside of HTPC) looks shaky for this year.

I'd also throw in for consumer displays- cable card 2.0 as being a must have for those that get their broadcast HD in that manner... so many new VOD demand services coming down the pike that way...

PS I wouldn't hold my breath on the PS3 coming out until right before Xmas '06
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Old 01-07-2006, 02:10 PM
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OK--I've played a few games in my life--ever since getting hooked on the original Wolfenstein 3D (played on a 386 computer with a 3DFX card). But are people seriously talking about plunking down 8 or 9 THOUSAND dollars ...to play GAMES???!!!!!

No wonder the rest of the world hates us.
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Old 01-07-2006, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JKent
OK--I've played a few games in my life--ever since getting hooked on the original Wolfenstein 3D (played on a 386 computer with a 3DFX card). But are people seriously talking about plunking down 8 or 9 THOUSAND dollars ...to play GAMES???!!!!!

No wonder the rest of the world hates us.
Heh, admittedly, games is but one application. Jury is out on if PS3 games will output in 1080p anyway. Some say yes, but I'll wait and see. I'm sure at least some of them will, but just like the orginal xbox which *can* do 720p and 1080i out, it was quite a rarity of a game that actually did that, and it was never at full quality. I'm content to wait and see. Panny's lack of a 50"1080p plasma solution is starting to depress me less and less. It looks like for me 2007 rather than 2006 will be the year of the upgrade. Better start saving. *sigh*
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Old 01-07-2006, 02:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markrubin
...yet there are other more troubling announcements with regard to source material and interface issues that may cause early adopters (EA) to think twice before they spend big bucks on new displays that are 1080p capable without knowing the true 'state of the art' ...
Can you please be specific on the announcements that pertain to interface issues for EA? I've been following the threads you posted, but I am failing to make the connection (no pun intended).

Maybe I'm just tired or something...
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Old 01-07-2006, 02:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by assJack1
Can you please be specific on the announcements that pertain to interface issues for EA? I've been following the threads you posted, but I am failing to make the connection (no pun intended).

Maybe I'm just tired or something...
I am referring to references in this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post6794772

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Old 01-07-2006, 02:48 PM
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Thanks for all the replies. I think I have my answer.

Can anyone with a solid 1080i 50 inch (or even a 60 plus inch) HD display actually say that they feel they're missing something? I've seen Plasma, LCD, DLP, and CRT RPTV at 1080i and never have I felt there to be anything lacking. Granted each of those technologies have their pros/cons but image sharpness when fed a good source signal has never been an issue I've ever seen.

I know this is a subjective thing and theory is that twice the resolution would give you a crisper picture. If that's true, great. I'll wait till there's source material before considering an upgrade based soley on the fact that the display can show 1080p.

Seeing the first TV capable of displaying a 480p signal was incredible. The clarity of the image and the detail was obvious. Seeing an HD signal on that same set was equally impressive.

I have see some of these 1080p displays and honestly have not seen the image quality increase. It could be that this is because there's no source material to really drive it. However, at this point in time it sounds like 1080p has reached the point of diminishing returns.

That said, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.
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Old 01-07-2006, 02:57 PM
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I've been following the evolution of "HD" for quite some time. I have two "HD" televisions and countless hours reading mags and forums, and I'll tell ya that the more I learn the more disappointed I become. There needs to be a HIGH standard set by the people and followed by the industry in order to market products as "HD", much the same as "organic" is regulated by the food industry. I hate the fact that when I see "HD" used to market a product or service I have to search for hours on the internet to find out if the inflated price is justified by greater value, let alone perceived value. That said it seems to me that the highest quality signal I can receive for my "HD" viewing pleasure is the one that is free - OTA! Please correct me if I am wrong.
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Old 01-07-2006, 03:04 PM
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Can someone at CES look at one of the 1080p PDP's driven by BluRay HD DVD and give us a PQ report. All the theory and talk is great but I am interested in what the 1080p PDP's coming to market this year can actually deliver in PQ.
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Old 01-07-2006, 03:04 PM
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Well, Mark's timing is good. Here's my post from the HD Programming section which I think sums up what Mark is saying....and unfortunately I agree with him 100%!

As I stated several weeks ago, the Golden Era of HD is now just a memory. Will the FTC get involved? Highly unlikely. You know what the really sad thing is? The new, large, 1080p displays with their 'full-rez' capabilities will be simply a largely 'unused feature'. Yes, we'll have Blu-Ray/HD DVD, but is anyone out there really going to bet their life that these releases will all be in full 1920X1080? I surely won't. Is this enough of a rationale to invest in the upcoming super-large screen sizes that will, more than ever, show the flaws in our deteriorated HD system? So yes, the rare knock out movie will look fabulous on these new displays, but the other 95% of material you watch, will look no better than what you may be watching on now and may quite possibly look worse unless the display's built-in scaler/processors are really up to the task of great down-rezzing.

For me at least, the answer is no. Until this shakes out and full-rez is restored, I just can't see the wisdom in these new technologies. Sad. :(
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Old 01-07-2006, 03:12 PM
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Isnt it really just a timing issue. The market/industry/broadcast entities/technology will ultimately drive towards FullHD. It'll stumble along hit some roadblocks but it will get there. Just a few years back HD broadcasts by the networks was nowhere, now just about all of my better half's favorite shows are HD and she records on the PVR and plays at her convenience. I am a guy coming from a Sony 32"CRT to a 42PX500U and hesitated because of the bad press about SD on a HD panel, and frankly it looks great to me, and HD looks truly superb, hence my thinking that FullHD just might be the 'cat's meow' !.
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Old 01-07-2006, 03:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by necrolop
1080P sources: 1080i TV at full frame, a PC via DVI to play games, BluRay at 1080p24, and ofcourse the up and coming PS3 with some games being able to do 1080p60.
1080i sources, displayed at 1080p, is not the same as a source originating in 1080p. Second, part of the full-rez 1080p discussion is the fact that the HORIZONTAL resolution 'can' be a full 1,920. What we are saying is that broadcast today (satellite sources and many cable systems) are not anywhere near a full 1,920. I'm still surprised at how many people often forget the horizontal resolution and seem to think it's only the vertical, 1080, resolution that counts. Without a good decent horizontal resolution, your picture will look like mush even if it's a full 1080.

The unfortunate fact of life is that unless your SOURCE originates at a full 1920X1080p, the new displays will add little to your viewing experience....in fact, they may well subtract from it!

For me the Blu-Ray/HD DVD solution will not be enough to justify the 1080p purchase unless it can be demonstrated that the new displays not only handle the new sources beautifully, but show improvement in our old HD-Lite sources. For many (most?) people, the majority of HD will still come from satellite and cable.
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Old 01-07-2006, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snappa
Thanks for all the replies. I think I have my answer.

Can anyone with a solid 1080i 50 inch (or even a 60 plus inch) HD display actually say that they feel they're missing something? I've seen Plasma, LCD, DLP, and CRT RPTV at 1080i and never have I felt there to be anything lacking. Granted each of those technologies have their pros/cons but image sharpness when fed a good source signal has never been an issue I've ever seen.
You are correct. In fact a recent article by Peter Putnam showed research that proved for a typical 50" display at typical viewing distances, 1080p would get you nowhere. Should I repeat that? You will get NO additional benefit with full-rez 1080p from a 50" display at 8' and beyond. Naturally if you increase screen size significantly or shorten your viewing distance significantly (how many people will really want to sit on top of a large screen?), then you will see added benefit.

I've been saying this for quite some time, but it's fallen on deaf ears and I've even been attacked as 'anti-technology'. Anybody that knows me gets hysterical at that thought.

I'm simply trying to spread some realism and temper expectations.
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Old 01-07-2006, 03:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trunorth
Can someone at CES look at one of the 1080p PDP's driven by BluRay HD DVD and give us a PQ report. All the theory and talk is great but I am interested in what the 1080p PDP's coming to market this year can actually deliver in PQ.

Even THOSE reports must be taken with a grain of salt since they are generally large screen displays being fed a pristine 1080p signal. That says nothing about how these displays will look with our typical broadcast material.

I'd be shocked if the general concensus at CES was that these displays didn't look great givein their source material. Our problem today and for at least the near future is the source material, NOT the hardware.
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Old 01-07-2006, 03:27 PM
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Well Ken, you really know how to break up a party!:D Back to square one.
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Old 01-07-2006, 03:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trunorth
Isnt it really just a timing issue. The market/industry/broadcast entities/technology will ultimately drive towards FullHD.
Nice thought, but unfortunately if you've been in to HD since it's inception, you would have seen quite the opposite. We DID have full rez HD at the beginning. Since then we have seen a slow and steady deterioration in PQ for years. It seems that full-rez HD can be considered 'retro'. :(
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Old 01-07-2006, 03:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snappa
...
Can anyone with a solid 1080i 50 inch (or even a 60 plus inch) HD display actually say that they feel they're missing something? I've seen Plasma, LCD, DLP, and CRT RPTV at 1080i and never have I felt there to be anything lacking.
...
Heck, when I built my first color TV in 1967 had you asked me that question I would have told you there could never be an improvement on that. (In those days we watched many shows in color, cared less about the content. :)

I would jhave been wrong in 1967 and I suspect the folks that might answer your question in 2006 might feel that they were mistaken if asked in a few years.
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Old 01-07-2006, 03:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cajieboy
Well Ken, you really know how to break up a party!:D Back to square one.

So THAT'S why I was alone on New Years Eve!!! :D
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Old 01-07-2006, 03:42 PM
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Ken - to your point about technology actually running in reverse , I will acknowledge that audiophiles will agree that Satellite digital radio lacks the soundstage of good old FM. I am actually looking at buying a refurbished Magnum Dynalab FM tuner. Anyway lets hope the video guys controlling content and broadcast get the message about taking technology forward.
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Old 01-07-2006, 03:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaltiDawg
Heck, when I built my first color TV in 1967 had you asked me that question I would have told you there could never be an improvement on that. (In those days we watched many shows in color, cared less about the content. :)

I would jhave been wrong in 1967 and I suspect the folks that might answer your question in 2006 might feel that they were mistaken if asked in a few years.
was that the Heathkit?

I built one of those

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Old 01-07-2006, 03:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orogogus
You want to nail down that it can accept a 1080p signal through it's inputs (basically AFAIK this means waiting until HDMI 1.3 is out)
HDMI 1.3 is not necessary for 1080p support. There is already a LCD that accepts 1080p through HDMI (Sceptre 37"), as well the new HP DLP sets.
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Old 01-07-2006, 04:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross

The unfortunate fact of life is that unless your SOURCE originates at a full 1920X1080p, the new displays will add little to your viewing experience....in fact, they may well subtract from it!
Ken,

While I have been cautious about the benefits of the 1080p displays I've slowly become sold on them because, even despite the lack of true 1020x1080p content they still look better to me right now.

This is the kind of thing that tends to be based on our personal experiences, though. Because some people see the 1080p displays and think "what is all the fuss about? I don't see much if any difference from the 720p display." Others do see a difference.

Whenever I've been able to compare decent looking HD feeds on the 1080p displays (e.g. Sony/HP/Toshiba, along with the 1080p Sony projectors) to the 720p displays, I've percieved a distinct improvement in the image for the 1080p displays. The images just look a bit finer, tigher, sharper and smoother. And I can get even closer to the displays. This has even gone for DVD playback in some cases (e.g., as much as I love the Panny 65" plasma, I can move even closer to the Sony Qualia 70" and the picture remains smooth, even with DVD play-back).

So it's the advantages I see already there that have me interested in the 1080p displays (particularly the larger plasmas etc). I've yet to read a professional review of a 1080p display that did not rate it as having similar advantages over it's 720p competitors.

Of course, when you are talking 50" displays it makes sense that the resolution advantage may be lost to many "typical" viewers.

And, given I'm a movie nut - movies being far and away my most important viewing material - it doesn't seem unreasonable to suppose that HD DVDs are likely to end up producing a full 1080p/24 output.

Whaddya think?
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Old 01-07-2006, 04:29 PM
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Ive got a PC sitting here with DVI that can output 1920x1080, Bluray will most likely allow for multiple formats, but It is confirmed that at very least some of them will be in full frame 1920x1080, and I will assume as time progresses more and more will be. As far as 1080i on a 1080p, at very least I will have to lose less of the picture information than I would if displaying the same signal on a 720p display. At first sony said that all games would be able to render at 1920x1080, and some at 3840x1080, but it seems they have fallen back on it and now say some, but I am confident that the PS3 will not just be rendering 720 and scaling up the signal to 1080 for output, atleast not always.

The applications do, and will exist in which I would like to have 1920x1080. As far as price, the new Sharp line of LCDs will be pretty affordable, and after initial release will im sure drop even lower.

People stress too much about broadcast quality content, okay so maybe broadcast 1080i isnt full 1920 wide, but who cares, broadcast quality always sucks. For example a normal resolution movie on Directv should by all means look like a DVD, its the same res and what not, but it doesnt, the DVD is far superior, and that will always be so cause of bandwidth limitations. But with bluray those limitations arent valid.

1080p maybe not ready for primetime yet, but I think its hard to say it is not going to be the standard at which TVs are made for quite a number of years on from now.

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Old 01-07-2006, 05:04 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orogogus
yes, read the threads and do your research before putting down your dollars on a 1080p display/source.

You want to nail down that it can accept a 1080p signal through it's inputs (basically AFAIK this means waiting until HDMI 1.3 is out) and find out what the players/sources will output to make sure there is a match.

It's a bit of FUD, but everything I have been reading is throwing up huge warning signs. The future looks bright, but the connection chain (in the CE domain, outside of HTPC) looks shaky for this year.

I'd also throw in for consumer displays- cable card 2.0 as being a must have for those that get their broadcast HD in that manner... so many new VOD demand services coming down the pike that way...

PS I wouldn't hold my breath on the PS3 coming out until right before Xmas '06
Don't forget to add the dual tuners for true PIP/Split-screen and an IEEE 1394 connection. For $9000 I expect to buy a "turn-key" 1080p PDP.

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