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post #1141 of 1162 Old 02-16-2007, 07:19 PM
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Panamax, hubbell ( http://www.growtron.com/Hubbell-Bryant/tvss/index2.htm ), Leviton, Furman (I think is now owned by Panamax). intermatic...

I would try some of these manufactures to see if they produce what you are looking for...

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post #1142 of 1162 Old 02-17-2007, 02:21 PM
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After reading threads on this forum, I put together a system and would like the best cables and or best way to hook the system together.

It starts with a Sony 40 in. XBR2 that will need to be connected to a Brighthouse Digital Box and a DVR. These will go with my Onkyo TX-SR674S and the OppO 970HD.
I will also use a Trip-lite power conditioner either HT 10DBS or the HT POWERBAR 10.

How should these be connected? HDMI , component. What cables to buy Each should be less than 6 ft.

Thanks for any help.
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post #1143 of 1162 Old 02-18-2007, 08:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lcaillo View Post

It is not a "theory" at all in the scientific use of the word. It is a marketing claim and the claim of individuals who believe that they have seen improvements. There are rare cases where I have seen noise reduction in products with conventional power supplies for audio with line filtering, but they are rare and are usually better solved by dealing with the source. In the case of video displays, there is no good argument that I can find for how power line filtering nor power cables can make visible differences. The types of power supplies used in modern displays almost assures that these differences will not be found.

After talking yesterday with a friend, who is a professor in the computer networking field, I have to back lcaillo up. What was told to me is this:

1) High quality surge protection is a MUST if you value your equipment.

2) While power conditioning and voltage regulation are very critical in the computer fields, particularly server-based network applications, you will likely see minimal to no visual or audible improvement in a home theatre setting.

3) There's nothing wrong with hooking these devices up to your system, as they cause no harm and voltage regulation can help in prolonging the life of your equipment if you live in an area with a lot of fluctuations.

He recommended APC as "first tier" gear (as far as the computer weenies are concerned) followed by Belkin and Tripp Lite.

I'm looking at the APC H10 and taking the approach that it is a very high quality, expensive surge protector that has a couple of cute options I can Ooo-Ahh my friends with who know less about this stuff than I! The only visual upside to it I'm expecting to acheive is better cable management....which is also reason enough for some to purchase one of these little toys.

For the record, so far, APC is the only company I've found in my research that does NOT require you to unplug your gear during a lightning storm (at least for the H10). Most, including Belkin, do require that for their "warranty" to apply. I wouldn't want to lay odds on anybody's hardware standing up to a direct hit from lightning, but they and the computer industry do seem pretty confident in the surge handling ability of their product.
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post #1144 of 1162 Old 02-18-2007, 05:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ryan8886 View Post

For the record, so far, APC is the only company I've found in my research that does NOT require you to unplug your gear during a lightning storm (at least for the H10). Most, including Belkin, do require that for their "warranty" to apply. I wouldn't want to lay odds on anybody's hardware standing up to a direct hit from lightning, but they and the computer industry do seem pretty confident in the surge handling ability of their product.

I would not infer from lack of information on the part of APC, that their units are better than anyone elses, due to unplugging during a lightning storm. No one builds a TVSS unit which can withstand a direct lightning strike...or even an extremely large surge for that matter. Marketing gimmicks aside, I would not even rely upon a warranty from these manufacturers for replacement of equipment...they are notoriously poor at responding to claims.

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post #1145 of 1162 Old 02-18-2007, 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by AV Doogie View Post

No one builds a TVSS unit which can withstand a direct lightning strike...or even an extremely large surge for that matter.

How do you come to this as a meaningful or useful conclusion? What exactly constitutes a direct strike, or a large surge in your opinion? Most damage is actually caused by nearby strikes and most well designed MOV based surge suppressors provide excellent protection. I have seen many results of nearby strikes in which properly installed surge suppressors had connected equipment with no damage while many other devices in the home were toast. I have also seen many where the surge suppressor sacrificed itself, saved the equipment, and the manufacturer replaced the unit with a current model with no questions asked.

To imply that surge suppressors are not effective is simply inconsistent with my 30 years of experience with them.

The APC products have rather poor and very limited specs in many cases, and many do not cover all incoming signal lines. IMO, they are not a good choice for AV systems. It is possible to get good protection for far less money, however, by simply somparing specifications and verifying that units adhere to industry standards such as UL 1449.

Good value surge suppression:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16812120408

Yes, calibration is important...every user should be calibrated.

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post #1146 of 1162 Old 02-18-2007, 09:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Doogie View Post

I would not infer from lack of information on the part of APC, that their units are better than anyone elses, due to unplugging during a lightning storm.

It states in the manual for the H10 that it is not necessary to unplug during a lightnening storm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lcaillo View Post

The APC products have rather poor and very limited specs in many cases, and many do not cover all incoming signal lines. IMO, they are not a good choice for AV systems. It is possible to get good protection for far less money, however, by simply somparing specifications and verifying that units adhere to industry standards such as UL 1449.

lcaillo,

I've figured out enough of this to know that there's a fair bit of snake oil when it comes to these devices. From reading some of your posts, you seem to know your stuff on this. Problem is, I keep getting different information from various people and places.....and ALL of them seem to know their stuff!
I'm looking for all the opinions I can get. So why not APC? ( I am also considering a PureAV PF60) The H10 I'm looking at seems to have good numbers (just shy of 5000 joules...although I'm having a hard time finding a clamping speed for the MOV's), is UL 1449 compliant, covers all the incoming signal lines I need and many highly recommend the name. Audioholics even uses the H10 on their reference system. I've spent thousands on the equipment in my system and can't afford to replace if it gets melted. Even at $200, it would still be my cheapest piece of gear.
It's also not uncommon for me to come home 2-3 times a month and find the power has blinked off/on while I was gone (as evidenced by the need to reset all the friggin clocks! ) It's for this reason I'm looking at the H10, as it does voltage regulation duties as well as surge protection (the PF60 does not). The grid around here can be kind of flakey. Last, I like the idea of a rack unit for cable management.
Any input you can give is appreciated!
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post #1147 of 1162 Old 02-19-2007, 04:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ryan8886 View Post

It states in the manual for the H10 that it is not necessary to unplug during a lightnening storm.



lcaillo,

I've figured out enough of this to know that there's a fair bit of snake oil when it comes to these devices. From reading some of your posts, you seem to know your stuff on this. Problem is, I keep getting different information from various people and places.....and ALL of them seem to know their stuff!
I'm looking for all the opinions I can get. So why not APC? ( I am also considering a PureAV PF60) The H10 I'm looking at seems to have good numbers (just shy of 5000 joules...although I'm having a hard time finding a clamping speed for the MOV's), is UL 1449 compliant, covers all the incoming signal lines I need and many highly recommend the name. Audioholics even uses the H10 on their reference system. I've spent thousands on the equipment in my system and can't afford to replace if it gets melted. Even at $200, it would still be my cheapest piece of gear.
It's also not uncommon for me to come home 2-3 times a month and find the power has blinked off/on while I was gone (as evidenced by the need to reset all the friggin clocks! ) It's for this reason I'm looking at the H10, as it does voltage regulation duties as well as surge protection (the PF60 does not). The grid around here can be kind of flakey. Last, I like the idea of a rack unit for cable management.
Any input you can give is appreciated!

APC has some fine stuff and some poor values. You have to get into their better units to get good protection, and even then they don't give very detailed specs on their units. Many of the cheaper units that people are buying are a poor value in terms of surge suppression and/or do not have pure sinewave output for the regulation or UPS functions. Look carefully at the models that you are interested in. The H10 has only a 12A current handling and is not a pure sine wave output device. You can get similar, if not better protection without dirty UPS power, and a lifetime warranty for about 10% of the price.

Look for UL 1449 certification, three way protection with MOVs across all combinations of H,N & G, coverage for all incoming signal lnes to your system, maximum peak current ratings, lowest voltage let-through, and clear specifications for suppression on all lines. The H10 is probably OK for protection but it does not clearly state three way protection nor detail the clamping on the signal lines.

Much of the snake oil has to do with promoting the need for expensive filtering or regulation systems, and the need for a UPS. For most systems all that is needed is a good surge suppressor and careful checking of the grounding of all lines into the system. In most cases filtering makes no difference in the performance of the system and regulation/UPS are simply not needed in terms of protection at all. You can get at least as good suppresion for about $20 than what you get in a $200 UPS in many cases. On-line regulation without pure sine wave output seems silly to me, as these outputs are usually far noisier than unfiltered a.c. lines.

Why do you need a UPS? Other than a little conveinience in an outage, is it worth the cost, the need for maintenence over time, the risk of added problems in the system due to crappy power output, and the environmental consequences of all those batteries needing to be disposed of eventually? An then there is the added cost for something that you don't need...it puzzles me how people will search for good deals on a UPS when al they need is a decent surge suppressor and could save much more.

Two good values in surge suppression:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16812120408

is hard to beat, or for a company with a longer track record and excellent reputaion, and over/under-voltage cutoff feature,

http://www.panamax.com/products.cfm?...il&id=249&ly=v

...and verify the grounding is solid and done properly on your system.

Yes, calibration is important...every user should be calibrated.

Need electronics repair? A great place to start looking for a shop in your area: http://www.tvrepairpros.com/
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post #1148 of 1162 Old 02-19-2007, 08:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lcaillo View Post

APC has some fine stuff and some poor values. You have to get into their better units to get good protection, and even then they don't give very detailed specs on their units. Many of the cheaper units that people are buying are a poor value in terms of surge suppression and/or do not have pure sinewave output for the regulation or UPS functions. Look carefully at the models that you are interested in. The H10 has only a 12A current handling and is not a pure sine wave output device. You can get similar, if not better protection without dirty UPS power, and a lifetime warranty for about 10% of the price.

Look for UL 1449 certification, three way protection with MOVs across all combinations of H,N & G, coverage for all incoming signal lnes to your system, maximum peak current ratings, lowest voltage let-through, and clear specifications for suppression on all lines. The H10 is probably OK for protection but it does not clearly state three way protection nor detail the clamping on the signal lines.

Much of the snake oil has to do with promoting the need for expensive filtering or regulation systems, and the need for a UPS. For most systems all that is needed is a good surge suppressor and careful checking of the grounding of all lines into the system. In most cases filtering makes no difference in the performance of the system and regulation/UPS are simply not needed in terms of protection at all. You can get at least as good suppresion for about $20 than what you get in a $200 UPS in many cases. On-line regulation without pure sine wave output seems silly to me, as these outputs are usually far noisier than unfiltered a.c. lines.

Why do you need a UPS? Other than a little conveinience in an outage, is it worth the cost, the need for maintenence over time, the risk of added problems in the system due to crappy power output, and the environmental consequences of all those batteries needing to be disposed of eventually? An then there is the added cost for something that you don't need...it puzzles me how people will search for good deals on a UPS when al they need is a decent surge suppressor and could save much more.

Two good values in surge suppression:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16812120408

is hard to beat, or for a company with a longer track record and excellent reputaion, and over/under-voltage cutoff feature,

http://www.panamax.com/products.cfm?...il&id=249&ly=v

...and verify the grounding is solid and done properly on your system.

Thanks for the info. I'm not looking for UPS, and the H10 is not a UPS device, as far as I can tell. I'll look into your other solutions listed above! Thanks!
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post #1149 of 1162 Old 05-07-2007, 04:41 PM
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post #1150 of 1162 Old 07-04-2007, 05:12 PM
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For those of you still reading this thread. I think I have the answer for why someone would use one of these. The jacklegs that built my new house put MY ENTIRE DEN ON A SINGLE CIRCUIT! This circuit is also tied into my ceiling fan!!! Needless to say, I can hear mild humming occasionally on things like the headphone jack of my laptop. I have a feeling that the power conditioner is perfectly suited for this.

That said, I did not want to spend much money on one of these. I just wanted everyone to know that the belkin PureAV PF40l ($110 at provantage) is $69 at my local Sams Club. I guess no one at Sams bought the theory either, their loss, my gain.
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post #1151 of 1162 Old 07-04-2007, 08:52 PM
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yep. i still read it whenever anything is posted to it.

there aught to be some kind of code against wiring a room like that.

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post #1152 of 1162 Old 07-04-2007, 08:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinca View Post

For those of you still reading this thread. I think I have the answer for why someone would use one of these. The jacklegs that built my new house put MY ENTIRE DEN ON A SINGLE CIRCUIT! This circuit is also tied into my ceiling fan!!! Needless to say, I can hear mild humming occasionally on things like the headphone jack of my laptop. I have a feeling that the power conditioner is perfectly suited for this.

That said, I did not want to spend much money on one of these. I just wanted everyone to know that the belkin PureAV PF40l ($110 at provantage) is $69 at my local Sams Club. I guess no one at Sams bought the theory either, their loss, my gain.

MIght be a good idea to have a dedicated separate line installed. Not an expensive job.

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Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
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post #1153 of 1162 Old 07-05-2007, 07:33 AM
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Hello:

I just had 2 individual circuits added to my HT room for my equipment. Provided you have a trussed attic it won't be that big an expense.

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post #1154 of 1162 Old 08-31-2007, 09:36 AM
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I have experimented with several Power Conditioning products over the years. I recall the Adcom ACE 515 from the 1980s as my initial foray into the field. Not really any huge differences to be noted.
Recently I saw a product that seemed to be an ulimate form of isolation from the "grid" in general. A double conversion AC To DC and back to AC again regenerator,It's 1050 watt capacity is pretty darn big.Includes a battery as well. So for short periods you can run disconnected from the outlet.
My own Power source! If there were to be any sonic or visual differences this would be the best way to test them.
I hooked it up to my home theater system Sony Pearl, HR20 Directv receiver,Escient/Sony CD and DVD player and a Sony 9000ES receiver.
Watching a HD Twins game did not really show much of any improvement, Maybe, some small details,but nothing to scream about.
The game went sour for the Twins,so I switched to some familiar CDs from the Escient. There is a Celine Dion song on the Titanic soundtrack that I have heard and demonstrated many times. I could not deny it, everything about the replay seemed better, more detail,better imaging etc. I mean really easy to notice. As I listened to more cuts the differences continued to be rather grandiose!
I am thinking most of the difference is in the amplifier/processor? It is an all Digital model. At any rate it seems that something either lacking in the incoming power or distortion adding to it negatively effects the sound in particular. Unfortunately $2400 retail for this Purepower model.
The more expensive a system is the more value this would add it would seem?
I am recommending "Getting off the Grid" to picky audiophiles.
I am sure there are other products like this out there. PS Audio as I recall made a smaller version.
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post #1155 of 1162 Old 08-31-2007, 06:18 PM
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post #1156 of 1162 Old 11-25-2007, 08:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lcaillo View Post

APC has some fine stuff and some poor values. You have to get into their better units to get good protection, and even then they don't give very detailed specs on their units. Many of the cheaper units that people are buying are a poor value in terms of surge suppression and/or do not have pure sinewave output for the regulation or UPS functions. Look carefully at the models that you are interested in. The H10 has only a 12A current handling and is not a pure sine wave output device. You can get similar, if not better protection without dirty UPS power, and a lifetime warranty for about 10% of the price.

Are you suggesting that the H10 is a UPS? I don't think you did your homework here. It's not and it regulates voltage without a battery (as a result the sinewave is only altered by the filters for noise). FYI, APC's S and J series ARE UPS's and they DO output pure sinewave. As for input amperage, they claim 12A because they're one of the few companies that actually adheres to accepted industry standards. The H10 has the following certs: CSA, FCC Part 15 Class B, FCC Part 68, Industry Canada, UL 1012, UL 1449, UL 498. Here's an excerpt from Audioholics interview with APC's Steve Williams (I'd include a link but haven't posted enough):

Quote:


What makes other brands of power products not likely to pass these certification tests ?
The biggest violation we see is fudging the product rating. APC products are limited by the standards which require the input rating to be a maximum of 80% of the cord plug rating. As a result we can only rate our product 12A max. Many of our competitors cheat and rate their products 15A. For more detail on this subject please read the following excerpt from an article on the APC A/V web site:

It's important to note that even UL-Listed products can have flaws. A classic example is the 15-Amp rating that appears on many products provided with a 15A plug. This violates the UL standard and the NEC, which specifies that a product can only be rated at 80 percent of the plug attached to it.

Quote:


Why does the rear panel of the S15/H15 say 120V / 12A? Does this mean the power conditioner is fuse-protected not to deliver any more than 1,440W from the wall outlet?

No, as explained above the product is purposefully limiting the end user not to connect more than 12A of load to it. In reality, you could keep loading it until the internal circuit breaker (15A) trips, but that would be misuse. Again, we put ourselves at a competitive disadvantage by doing what is right. Our competition allows the customer to load up to 15A while we limit the customer to only 12A. It is important to understand that this 12A refers to steady state and the unit can source in excess of 30A short-term to handle large inrush currents drawn by professional-grade A/V equipment. APC specifically tests for this by repeatedly cold starting high power A/V equipment well over 6,000 times. In one case the limit on the test was the fact that the amplifier used broke because it could not handle that many starts and stops, but the S type power conditioner kept on running.

I guess I have a different outlook because I come from the computer field and have dealt with APC extensively for high-end server protection. One thing I learned is that this company stood out from the others in giving the least BS (snake oil), adhering to standards and delivering quality products. Given my experience with them, I would trust their product claims above anyone else in the business.
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post #1157 of 1162 Old 11-26-2007, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by MashuriBC View Post

Are you suggesting that the H10 is a UPS? I don't think you did your homework here. It's not and it regulates voltage without a battery (as a result the sinewave is only altered by the filters for noise). FYI, APC's S and J series ARE UPS's and they DO output pure sinewave. As for input amperage, they claim 12A because they're one of the few companies that actually adheres to accepted industry standards. The H10 has the following certs: CSA, FCC Part 15 Class B, FCC Part 68, Industry Canada, UL 1012, UL 1449, UL 498. Here's an excerpt from Audioholics interview with APC's Steve Williams (I'd include a link but haven't posted enough):





I guess I have a different outlook because I come from the computer field and have dealt with APC extensively for high-end server protection. One thing I learned is that this company stood out from the others in giving the least BS (snake oil), adhering to standards and delivering quality products. Given my experience with them, I would trust their product claims above anyone else in the business.

OK, I guess I was wrong about the H10. I must have been looking at the specs of some other unit. So if it is not a UPS and is a power conditioner, it is still a poor value, as the need for a power conditioner beyond basic surge suppression is rarely justified for most systems. I still maintain that most systems only need the kind of protection that you can get for a fraction of the cost, along with attention to grounding. For half the cost of the H10 you could protect your entire house with whole house suppressor, as well as every system in the house with local surge suppression. If one needs additional line filtering, it can likely be accomplished a lot cheaper. I have yet to see actual evidence of picture improvements due to line conditioners in typical systems.

Yes, calibration is important...every user should be calibrated.

Need electronics repair? A great place to start looking for a shop in your area: http://www.tvrepairpros.com/
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post #1158 of 1162 Old 11-27-2007, 03:15 AM
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hi. i just got a sharp 46" 64U for my apartment and have it hooked it only to a wii and hd receiver from twc. im using a cyberpower surge protector, one similar to the one lcaillo posted. im hoping to get a xbox360/ps3 soon. do i need a power conditioner or anything else to protect my electronics? thanks.
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post #1159 of 1162 Old 11-30-2007, 02:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lcaillo View Post

OK, I guess I was wrong about the H10. I must have been looking at the specs of some other unit. So if it is not a UPS and is a power conditioner, it is still a poor value, as the need for a power conditioner beyond basic surge suppression is rarely justified for most systems. I still maintain that most systems only need the kind of protection that you can get for a fraction of the cost, along with attention to grounding. For half the cost of the H10 you could protect your entire house with whole house suppressor, as well as every system in the house with local surge suppression. If one needs additional line filtering, it can likely be accomplished a lot cheaper. I have yet to see actual evidence of picture improvements due to line conditioners in typical systems.

That's based on the assumption one lives in a house. I live in a busy apartment complex and the power supply is far from clean. My voltage fluctuates (especially during our 100+ degree summers) and all sorts of noise gets fed into our supply by whatever power tools / devices are being used by my neighbors and/or hired help. Having a power conditioner with AVR is a godsend here and I immediately noticed the difference in audio and visual quality. Once I get my own house, however, I will make sure to follow your advice for clean power. Until then, I can't live without this H10 and, for the $200 I paid, nothing else even comes close to the features and protection it offers.
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post #1160 of 1162 Old 12-10-2007, 06:42 PM
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This may be a stupid question but here goes...

should I be concerned about switching to another setting on the switch while a device is still on? For example, should my tv be off when I switch my hdmi switcher to my Playstation 3?
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post #1161 of 1162 Old 11-29-2008, 08:33 AM
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Does any one here have any experience with the Tributaries tx-500, tx-1000 or t12?

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post #1162 of 1162 Old 07-15-2009, 02:43 PM
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Is Belkin's little UPS AP30800FC10-BLK anygood at all? i can't find much info on it.

Chaos is how the world keeps moving along, order just inhibits the innovation it creates.
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Reply OLED Technology and Flat Panels General

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