OLED TVs: Technology Advancements Thread - Page 205 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #6121 of 12225 Old 06-26-2013, 04:07 PM
 
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Poor translation, but the last sentence suggests that a Panasonic consumer panel may very well not be coming in 2015 after all, only mentioning commercial purposes.
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post #6122 of 12225 Old 06-26-2013, 10:44 PM
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It could be a translation error; I have no idea. But aside from the reference to "television stations" the fact that it refers to "end of 2015" again makes me believe that we'd be lucky to see anything come out of Panasonic before 2016 (or Sony for that matter).

So between now and then, another 650 million or so LCD TVs will be sold against perhaps 1 million OLEDs. Oh, and Samsung has three new tablets coming out next month all of which use LCDs.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #6123 of 12225 Old 06-27-2013, 03:26 AM
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post #6124 of 12225 Old 06-27-2013, 05:06 AM
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I can't imagine this curved business has staying power.

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post #6125 of 12225 Old 06-27-2013, 05:39 AM
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Originally Posted by ALMA View Post

Samsung released curved OLED-TV for $13000 in Korea:

Outside Korea in July...

Does outside Korea mean in the US? If Samsung puts their set up for sale in the US before LG, then who actually won the race?
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post #6126 of 12225 Old 06-27-2013, 05:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Rich Peterson View Post

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Originally Posted by ALMA View Post

Samsung released curved OLED-TV for $13000 in Korea:

Outside Korea in July...

Does outside Korea mean in the US? If Samsung puts their set up for sale in the US before LG, then who actually won the race?

 

Depends.  If the Samsung is a complete disaster in PQ, then LG won.

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post #6127 of 12225 Old 06-27-2013, 07:08 AM
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

I can't imagine this curved business has staying power.
I can. If it delivers the PQ everybody hopes for and if it greatly reduces off axis viewing problems. Of course those are big if's but curved is aimed at the latter and OLED is aimed at delivering great PQ.
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post #6128 of 12225 Old 06-27-2013, 07:10 AM
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Sounds like overconfidence for Panasonic to consider producing for other companies when they haven't proven any producibility at all.

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post #6129 of 12225 Old 06-27-2013, 07:12 AM
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Originally Posted by andy sullivan View Post

I can. If it delivers the PQ everybody hopes for and if it greatly reduces off axis viewing problems. Of course those are big if's but curved is aimed at the latter and OLED is aimed at delivering great PQ.

I would think curved would worsen viewing angles. Only the person in the center sweet spot would get a good view.

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post #6130 of 12225 Old 06-27-2013, 07:29 AM
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Originally Posted by andy sullivan View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

I can't imagine this curved business has staying power.
I can. If it delivers the PQ everybody hopes for and if it greatly reduces off axis viewing problems.

 

It's can't solve off-axis issues, and I doubt anyone would claim that.  Not even LG's "you can see passive 3D lying down" smokingcrack marketing team would attempt that.  Criminey, I hope not anyway.  It's the OLED part of it that would manage that, not this curved hooey.

 

If you're in the middle of a curved screen, things will be great, but of dubious incremental value.  If you're off axis, then the side closest to you will be worse because it'll be horizontally squashed.

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post #6131 of 12225 Old 06-27-2013, 07:34 AM
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Originally Posted by navychop View Post

I would think curved would worsen viewing angles. Only the person in the center sweet spot would get a good view.
Only if several people sit very close, which there wont be space for, or the viewing angle is very bad. The panel doen't have that much curve.

What I scratch my head about is that they release the curved screen but can't release a straight screen.
Is that just for getting some additional marketing hype?

Seems to have a good viewing angle.
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post #6132 of 12225 Old 06-27-2013, 08:05 AM
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Samsung rolls out OLED TV as production glitches linger

SEOUL (Reuters) - Samsung Electronics Co Ltd launched its first OLED TV on Thursday, taking the ultra-thin technology into a nascent market despite tenacious production challenges that keep costs high while prevailing LCD screens only get better and cheaper.

The world's biggest TV manufacturer has staked its display future on OLED - organic light emitting diode - technology and its success with smaller screens has bolstered its smartphone market share and earnings. But big screens are likely to take a much slower road to profits.

OLED technology is widely believed to offer the potential for better picture quality than standard liquid crystal display screens, with crisper picture resolution, faster response times and high-contrast images. It also allows for curved televisions, which manufacturers say offer a more immersive experience.

But production constraints are a key problem.

Samsung is producing OLED screens for TVs from a small pilot line and some analysts estimate the yield at just 30 percent - with seven out of 10 screens from the line faulty, largely due to difficulties in spreading organic light emitting materials evenly across large screens.

Although many industry experts believe OLED will eventually be the next big thing, they do not think it will manage to do to LCDs what LCDs did to bulky cathode ray tube sets: almost completely replace them in the space of just several years.

"They are not sufficiently transformational to trigger a complete switch-over from LCDs," said Eo Kyu-jin, an analyst at IBK Securities, adding that for now OLED televisons would represent less than 1 percent of the 200 million-plus global TV market.

Samsung's $13,000 price tag on its curved 55-inch OLED television is the same as similar offerings from LG Electronics Inc , some five times more than popular LCD equivalents.

Samsung itself took a cautious tone, warning that industry forecasts for sales growth were a bit too optimistic.

"We have just introduced our first OLED TV and have to see consumer response to gauge overall market demand," Kim Hyunsuk, a Samsung executive vice president, told reporters.

Research firm DisplaySearch has forecast global industry-wide sales of OLED televisions at 50,000 this year and 600,000 next year, with rapid growth thereafter to reach 7 million in 2016.

LG, which currently offers both curved and non-curved 55-inch screens, is estimated to have only sold a few hundred screens so far after starting sales earlier this year.

LCD technology is also getting better and this is where many of Samsung's and LG's rivals, which lack their South Korean rivals' deep pockets, are concentrating their efforts.

"OLED demand is likely to pick up strongly only after 2015. It has a long way to go to improve picture quality to the level of ultra-high definition and to lower production costs sharply," said Chung Won-suk, an analyst at HI Investment & Securities.

Samsung, seeking to avoid putting all its eggs in one basket, also unveiled on Thursday 55-inch and 65-inch ultra-high definition (UHD) TV sets which offer crisper LCD picture resolution. Sony Corp and Chinese manufacturers are aggressively marketing that technology.

As market dynamics remain uncertain, manufacturers' investment plans have so far been modest.

LG Display, which is also working from a pilot line, has just started investing 706 billion won this year in large OLED panels. Samsung Display has yet to announce its capital investment plan for production of large OLED screens.

Samsung said it will begin selling its curved OLED televisions outside South Korea from July but did not specify which countries. It has no plans to offer non-curved OLED screens this year.


Interesting... Seems like OLED is making a push, but the battle will be a tough one?
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post #6133 of 12225 Old 06-27-2013, 08:50 AM
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Only if several people sit very close, which there wont be space for, or the viewing angle is very bad. The panel doen't have that much curve. What I scratch my head about is that they release the curved screen but can't release a straight screen.
Is that just for getting some additional marketing hype?

They are desperately trying to differentiate OLED from tons of LCD sets and partially justify its high price. Consumers are getting even more confused: there is full palette of high-end Samsung LED 2K LCDs, they just introduced 4K LED LCDs, and now there is curved OLED. Flat OLED will add to the ridicule.

All this is due to market darwinism by LG and Samsung while reason says curved OLED should be directed first and foremost to the computer monitor market.
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post #6134 of 12225 Old 06-27-2013, 09:20 AM
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Seems to have a good viewing angle.
Looks distorted to me.
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post #6135 of 12225 Old 06-27-2013, 09:22 AM
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Samsung rolls out OLED TV as production glitches linger

Samsung said it will begin selling its curved OLED televisions outside South Korea from July but did not specify which countries. It has no plans to offer non-curved OLED screens this year.

I didn't realize Samsung was only doing the curved OLED this year, I thought they were doing both like LG. Interesting.
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post #6136 of 12225 Old 06-27-2013, 05:13 PM
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Sorry, Rich, I find none of this interesting. It's offensive to the consumer.

Two giant companies more or less pretending to release products.

Samsung's "curved only" approach is nothing more than an admission they simply cannot produce the TV. Now they are not only selling it for a fortune, they are also making it strange and weird. This ensures already tiny demand will become that much tinier. Whether they deliver zero (likely) or 100-200 (possible) in 2013, this is barely what one would call a product. It's a prototype.

That Samsung called the industry forecasts for OLED "optimistic" is terrifying. The industry forecasts have OLED garnering <3% of the TV market 3 years from now. That's optimistic? As my people say, oy vey. I'd hate to see pessimism. It is looking more and more like OLED -- which has been "5 years away" since around 2001 is, well, 5 years away. I suppose it's possible some people will consider it in 2016 and that the prices might be reasonable (for some) by then. But I'm dubious. We have the possibility of Sony and Panasonic starting production by then and Samsung and LG maybe beginning to deliver in volume. If people are still believing that yields a $3000 TV, well, I'd call that optimism.

My next TV feels like a plasma. Or perhaps an LCD. The TV after that feels like it could possibly be an OLED. If OLED TVs ever catch on. The operative word in that sentence remains (as irkuck would have pointed out a couple of years ago and I would echo in a number of points that look more accurate than any of the optimistic ones) "if".
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There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #6137 of 12225 Old 06-27-2013, 08:51 PM
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I think the reasons for releasing a curved model are pretty obvious. They need some way for the average consumer to notice the TV in the store. If it was flat, it would simply get lost in the sea of LCDs. At least this design will cause people to stop and investigate what it's all about. Hopefully that will raise public awareness of OLED tech and make it easier to sell the flat versions to come.

The curve is not about improving picture quality. If it was, they would have curved it vertically too - otherwise pixels at the top/bottom are still further away than center. It's just a marketing decision.
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post #6138 of 12225 Old 06-27-2013, 11:40 PM
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The real answer is for the video display company heavy hitters behind closed doors to agree to ELIMINATE LCD that sucks!

OLED is never happening!

Curved is never happening!

I think what is finally happening is that the executives who run the companies that produce all the LCD that sucks are finally waking up to the reality that if LCD takes 100% control then THEY will also have to watch LCD that sucks!

They can't handle that thought because THEY know it sucks!

Has anyone noticed that all through 2013 we have been moving INEXORABLY to the LCD only world wide domination horror story apocalyptic holocaust!

Who is the person around here who has been telling everyone that the emperor's clothes are off and this is indeed happening?

Face it--Panasonic is about to throw in the towel much sooner than anyone wants to happen!

How long will Samsung remain around producing plasma?

For all you SOPHISTICATES out there who think I'm crazy--what are the GREAT examples of CURRENTLY produced LCD? Where are they at? Are they in D-Nice's house?

No I don't think they're there--they aren't ANYWHERE!

Even Wal-Mart is bored with selling LCD--even they know it sucks!

If you can't have OLED why not talk about Curved OLED which you also can't have?

What is that you're saying...Cry me a river!
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post #6139 of 12225 Old 06-27-2013, 11:50 PM
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So what is the problem with the low OLED yields anyways? Also, curved screens only work in my opinion if the image is movie theater sized and you are off to one side or another. Or you are positioned perfectly in the middle of the theater. With a 55 inch screen, it seems too small to get any benefits unless you sit freakishly close. I do see how having the curved screens can distinguish itself from the other sets, however they really need to be 75 inches or larger to make that wow factor impact being curved.
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post #6140 of 12225 Old 06-28-2013, 12:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artwood View Post

The real answer is for the video display company heavy hitters behind closed doors to agree to ELIMINATE LCD that sucks!

OLED is never happening!

Curved is never happening!

I think what is finally happening is that the executives who run the companies that produce all the LCD that sucks are finally waking up to the reality that if LCD takes 100% control then THEY will also have to watch LCD that sucks!

They can't handle that thought because THEY know it sucks!

Has anyone noticed that all through 2013 we have been moving INEXORABLY to the LCD only world wide domination horror story apocalyptic holocaust!

Who is the person around here who has been telling everyone that the emperor's clothes are off and this is indeed happening?

Face it--Panasonic is about to throw in the towel much sooner than anyone wants to happen!

How long will Samsung remain around producing plasma?

For all you SOPHISTICATES out there who think I'm crazy--what are the GREAT examples of CURRENTLY produced LCD? Where are they at? Are they in D-Nice's house?

No I don't think they're there--they aren't ANYWHERE!

Even Wal-Mart is bored with selling LCD--even they know it sucks!

If you can't have OLED why not talk about Curved OLED which you also can't have?

What is that you're saying...Cry me a river!

LOL whut?

Stand tall and shake the heavens...
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post #6141 of 12225 Old 06-28-2013, 02:58 AM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Sorry, Rich, I find none of this interesting. It's offensive to the consumer. Two giant companies more or less pretending to release products.
Samsung's "curved only" approach is nothing more than an admission they simply cannot produce the TV. Now they are not only selling it for a fortune, they are also making it strange and weird. This ensures already tiny demand will become that much tinier. Whether they deliver zero (likely) or 100-200 (possible) in 2013, this is barely what one would call a product. It's a prototype.

You do not appreciate the total problem. Even if they could produce OLED in volumes and even if its price would not be sick but just crazy, OLED has lost its appeal since one can not promote it by PQ, size, and thinness vs. LED LCD anymore. One the other hand LCD bleeding edge is now promoted as 4K making the 2K OLED perceived as backwater. So out of desperation there is curved OLED, this is real differentiation as one can not make a curved LCD. But it looks irrelevant, one can not make volumes of curved 55" OLEDs.

However the curved display concept has significant value in the computer monitor, gaming and all other areas where solitary wide angle view is useful.
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post #6142 of 12225 Old 06-28-2013, 08:34 AM
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You do not appreciate the total problem. Even if they could produce OLED in volumes and even if its price would not be sick but just crazy, OLED has lost its appeal since one can not promote it by PQ, size, and thinness vs. LED LCD anymore.

I don't agree with this. OLED has not lost it's appeal. There are countless accounts of people "blown away" by the picture quality in demos and I don't see that's been lost. The sets are priced high enough it's probably worth it for stores to get some source material that will look equally as stunning.
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post #6143 of 12225 Old 06-28-2013, 01:35 PM
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You do not appreciate the total problem.

Irkuck, do you really believe I don't appreciate the total problem? I mean really? I am bending over backwards to show you respect; do me the same courtesy?
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Even if they could produce OLED in volumes and even if its price would not be sick but just crazy, OLED has lost its appeal since one can not promote it by PQ, size, and thinness vs. LED LCD anymore. One the other hand LCD bleeding edge is now promoted as 4K making the 2K OLED perceived as backwater. So out of desperation there is curved OLED, this is real differentiation as one can not make a curved LCD. But it looks irrelevant, one can not make volumes of curved 55" OLEDs.

I doubt they can even make tiny quantities. It's a sideshow.
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However the curved display concept has significant value in the computer monitor, gaming and all other areas where solitary wide angle view is useful.

It has significant value in the really big computer monitor market. It has no meaningful value in the medium-sized computer monitor market. And the market paying a premium for computer monitors is pretty small anyway. I mean, I'm glad someone can serve it in theory. That said, 55-inch displays don't serve it.
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I don't agree with this. OLED has not lost it's appeal. There are countless accounts of people "blown away" by the picture quality in demos and I don't see that's been lost. The sets are priced high enough it's probably worth it for stores to get some source material that will look equally as stunning.

The problem is that these people are being blown away mostly because they are told to be blown away. Once these things are at retail, running content that people will live with, the end result is going to be fairly ordinary vs. what they can otherwise buy for a fraction of the price. This was the problem with the Sharp Elite. It had "world beating" contrast -- both simultaneous and sequential -- but it didn't matter to most people. And world-beating contrast is all OLED offers. It doesn't offer exceptional brightness. It doesn't offer meaningful color improvements (in fact, it may actually offer worse color due to this obsession with showing off the oversaturation it is capable of). And, quite honestly, the bar is not even where it was in 2012. The Samsung F8500 and Panasonic VT/ZT 60 didn't exist. By the time you can even buy an OLED, those will be replaced at least once, perhaps twice. The flat-out dumbest thing Panasonic has done is whatever cuts it has made to plasma R&D. It could have used its mantle as the "picture quality kings" to launch its OLED in 2016. If it cedes that to Samsung in 2014 and 2015, well....

Regardless, I suspect within 24 months, we will see a jumbo IGZO-backplane 4K OLED that raises the bar yet again. Maybe someone will bring back local dimming, maybe they won't. But even without it, I think you'll see the bar raised by a lower black floor from an IGZO design.

The chance to blow people away is a function of the competition. And that competition is quite literally getting better all the time. It's also good enough that most people are very happy with it.
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At last someone decides to service the niche market of people who live in Silos. You can't mount a flat panel on a curved wall.

^ This. Think of all the survivalists who live in the old Minuteman silos. They are probably delighted they can at last have a flat panel to replace the government-issue 1967 Sylvania that came with the silo.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #6144 of 12225 Old 06-28-2013, 04:12 PM
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OLED has not lost it's appeal. There are countless accounts of people "blown away" by the picture quality in demos and I don't see that's been lost..

Hope they are right, but that kind of enthusiasm is like the "honeymoon phase". I don't pay much attention to that stuff anymore.
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post #6145 of 12225 Old 06-28-2013, 09:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Rich Peterson View Post

I don't agree with this. OLED has not lost it's appeal. There are countless accounts of people "blown away" by the picture quality in demos and I don't see that's been lost. The sets are priced high enough it's probably worth it for stores to get some source material that will look equally as stunning.

It should be evident from my writing, but apparently it was not, that what is meant by the 'lost appeal' concerns major segment of mass market, not niches. Mass market decided the LCD, and even edgelit for the matter, is good enough PQ-wise and otherwise. The market could turn to the OLED if it is made with the range of LCD sizes and competing on price with the LCD. This sounds impossible.

Of course there are people who are craving for OLED but their numbers are too limited even for a niche market. Many of those people are just on an addict-hunger of wanting something better than LCD. So now when the 55" OLED might become available they will beg for a bigger one, when bigger ones appear they will beg for 4K OLED and if such appears they will beg for a cheap one biggrin.gif.
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post #6146 of 12225 Old 06-29-2013, 12:22 AM
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You can sign me up right now for the first 70" 4K OLED that is under $5000. Honestly, otherwise why bother?

I can already buy a freaking spectacular plasma 65" for under $4000 that is 2K. I can buy a $7000 4K TV from Sony today. There is no OLED for sale from anyone. So I'll pay a premium to the plasma for the pixels and power consumption. I'll offer a discount to the LCD because I figure it'll be half as expensive within 24 months and so the OLED will be pricier.

Yes, I'm in a niche market. But, then, so are the people buying that 5-series "fastback" from BMW.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #6147 of 12225 Old 06-29-2013, 11:03 AM
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You can sign me up right now for the first 70" 4K OLED that is under $5000. Honestly, otherwise why bother?

I can already buy a freaking spectacular plasma 65" for under $4000 that is 2K. I can buy a $7000 4K TV from Sony today. There is no OLED for sale from anyone. So I'll pay a premium to the plasma for the pixels and power consumption. I'll offer a discount to the LCD because I figure it'll be half as expensive within 24 months and so the OLED will be pricier.
Yes, this is the problem. For most people, current displays are good enough. And for those of us that have an interest in the high end - most of us probably already have a display we are happy with, whether that's a Pioneer Kuro, Sharp Elite, Sony HX9 etc.

If OLED had actually happened five years ago when flat panels were considerably worse off than they are now, then I would have absolutely been willing to pay a premium for it.
But I've had my Sony HX900 for years at this point and while I definitely want to move to 4K, and the other improvements OLED should bring are enticing, I am not willing to pay a premium for it now, and I certainly don't want to buy a first generation product.

Honestly, 4K (or even better, 8K) is going to be a bigger push for me than the contrast and viewing angle improvements OLED is going to bring over my current set. Resolution is by far the most obvious flaw that my TV has. I'm happy with how contrast, motion, color etc. is on it. It can still be improved upon, but I'm no longer desperately looking for something better like I was five years ago when I was buying just about every top-tier display that was coming out, only to return them for some glaring image quality problem.
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post #6148 of 12225 Old 06-29-2013, 11:16 AM
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Irkuck, do you really believe I don't appreciate the total problem? I mean really? I am bending over backwards to show you respect; do me the same courtesy?

Your expertise is impeccable, what I am emphasizing OLED is not anymore technical problem only. OLED has no differentiation factor from the LCD which consumers consider goodenough. This is leading to Samsung desperation of curved OLED. Curved is a factor but a weak one, it may even lead to a ridicule by consumers which, seeing a sea of flat LCDs and a single curved OLED, may become suspicious it loses shape due to intense light emission. biggrin.gif.
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It has significant value in the really big computer monitor market. It has no meaningful value in the medium-sized computer monitor market. And the market paying a premium for computer monitors is pretty small anyway. I mean, I'm glad someone can serve it in theory. That said, 55-inch displays don't serve it.

Curved computer monitor has clear application range with real benefits, it would be a good area to start with. Professional and high-end gaming market would be ready to pay for it.
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post #6149 of 12225 Old 06-29-2013, 04:06 PM
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Chron and Irkuck, I think you both raise important points.

Irkuck, given the market for computer monitors is real, albeit small, it's noteworthy no one is building an OLED in a realistic monitor size. Lifespan? Burn-in? Interesting it seems to me.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #6150 of 12225 Old 06-29-2013, 10:07 PM
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Why nobody is buliding OLED monitors? This question is well seen with Samsung which has mobile AMOLED product. Why they do not try to make just slightly bigger AMOLEDs? In my view this is due to manufacturing problems which are exponentially growing with size. So why on earth they are trying to jump into 55" OLED? I see it as a combination of the Chinese threat and battles with LG, there is no economic thinking here.
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