OLED TVs: Technology Advancements Thread - Page 211 - AVS Forum
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post #6301 of 11484 Old 07-19-2013, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JWhip View Post

Btw, the burn in was most visible when that section of the screen was showing one color, regardless of what that color was. It was visible on a white screen, a green screen. While visible on a screen displaying content, it was visible, just not as visible as with a one color screen. I didn't think to take pics on all types of screens, as the pic I took was representive of what was visible. The picture I took was part of the loop. It just so happens that that section of screen was showing a blue sky when I took the picture. As for the Samsung, Robert advised me after reading my piece that the Samsung uses a RGB system not LG's WRGB system.

That the display is showing the same effect on any single color screen, even a green screen is further significant evidence (pretty close to proof) that the display is not showing aging of the blue emitter but rather there is something else at work there.
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post #6302 of 11484 Old 07-19-2013, 06:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JWhip View Post

Btw, the burn in was most visible when that section of the screen was showing one color, regardless of what that color was. It was visible on a white screen, a green screen. While visible on a screen displaying content, it was visible, just not as visible as with a one color screen. I didn't think to take pics on all types of screens, as the pic I took was representive of what was visible. The picture I took was part of the loop. It just so happens that that section of screen was showing a blue sky when I took the picture. As for the Samsung, Robert advised me after reading my piece that the Samsung uses a RGB system not LG's WRGB system.

That's because of uneven wear of subpixel's brigtness. Each subpixel has its own white light source. While the spectrum of this light is more or less stable it's brightness apparently is not. If the brightness of particular subpixel changes there is a color shift visible in per pixel basis. Don't know why you guys think that LG's WRGB is color-shift-proofed?
So if red subpixel is worn out locally this will be visible on red and white if white is RGB assisted (not W alone). On white chart the effect will be less apparent because of the white subpixel assistance. But the same pixel can be also have green subpixel worn out which will be visible on green and white etc.
This is not a rocket science.
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post #6303 of 11484 Old 07-19-2013, 08:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ynotgoal View Post

That the display is showing the same effect on any single color screen, even a green screen is further significant evidence (pretty close to proof) that the display is not showing aging of the blue emitter but rather there is something else at work there.

Is it? When a pixel is activated on the LG, no matter what color you see, the activation is identical.

That he saw burn in means that pixel is partly "worn out." How you know that wear isn't due to just the blue being used up is completely unclear to me. It could absolutely be just the blue being less robust that would lead to this. It would change the hue of the white light by some amount, but that would be masked by the color filters to a point. Notably, it would reduce the total light output of those pixels, which is what would lead to the apparent burn in.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #6304 of 11484 Old 07-19-2013, 10:14 PM
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I'm so glad that no orifices were probed rogo.

LCD is like the Borg--you can tell who has been assimilated by one simple fact--have they bought as their main display an LCD?

If they are then they are the LCD Borg!

Once you've gotten to the point that you think that LCD looks good--you can not be redeemed!

OLED is like the ribbon in the sky that Jean Luc Picard wanted to go to--it's all fantasy!

Don't bend over to the LCD forces! Stop the abomination of the LCD only world wide domination horror story apocalyptic holocaust of video quality!

Buy plasma and pray. The only reason for curved OLED is in toilet stalls!
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post #6305 of 11484 Old 07-20-2013, 02:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

But if performance is predictable enough, it can be calibrated out.

While 20,000 hours might seem low, that's still almost 7 years, 8 hours a day, to half brightness.

I'm confused how calibration would solve the burn-in problem. Traditional calibration is performed per-screen and applies the same correction to all pixels. You would need some kind of localized calibration that applies per-pixel correction to mask any burned pixels. I have a hard time seeing how that could be performed for 1920x1080x4 sub-pixels using any kind of manual probe.

To do it automatically, they would need some kind of frame-buffer history that tracked exactly what each pixel was displaying over its life. They would also need a very accurate method to predict color and luminance change as a function of time and color displayed.
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post #6306 of 11484 Old 07-20-2013, 04:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post

I'm confused how calibration would solve the burn-in problem. Traditional calibration is performed per-screen and applies the same correction to all pixels. You would need some kind of localized calibration that applies per-pixel correction to mask any burned pixels. I have a hard time seeing how that could be performed for 1920x1080x4 sub-pixels using any kind of manual probe.
I did not mean user calibration, but internal calibration of the set. If you know that after 2000 hours, the brightness of blue will have dropped ~5% on average, you can adjust red & green to compensate for that. It will not be perfect, but avoids large color shifts over the lifetime of the panel.
Plasmas and CRTs have already been doing this to compensate for phosphors losing sensitivity as they age. Some LCDs also have similar internal calibration features.
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Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post

To do it automatically, they would need some kind of frame-buffer history that tracked exactly what each pixel was displaying over its life. They would also need a very accurate method to predict color and luminance change as a function of time and color displayed.
What you suggest would be a method to try and prevent burn-in. You would be surprised at what a difference even using a rough value for panel age will make. And who says that they can't do this?
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post #6307 of 11484 Old 07-20-2013, 08:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post

I'm confused how calibration would solve the burn-in problem. Traditional calibration is performed per-screen and applies the same correction to all pixels. You would need some kind of localized calibration that applies per-pixel correction to mask any burned pixels. I have a hard time seeing how that could be performed for 1920x1080x4 sub-pixels using any kind of manual probe.
I did not mean user calibration, but internal calibration of the set. If you know that after 2000 hours, the brightness of blue will have dropped ~5% on average, you can adjust red & green to compensate for that.

 

There are almost certainly going to be electrical characteristics that can be read that are consistent with "worn out" thin film luminescence.  The panel every 1000 power ups might do a full screen of color test and electrical read.  The problem is that you cannot read a worn out phosphor (I still need clarification if that's one of the "emitters"), so yes, wear balancing would be based on predictive methods like you said in that case.


Send this to all your friends! When will this stupidity end? So hysterical: Vertical Video Syndrome --- a PSA.
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post #6308 of 11484 Old 07-20-2013, 08:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post

To do it automatically, they would need some kind of frame-buffer history that tracked exactly what each pixel was displaying over its life. They would also need a very accurate method to predict color and luminance change as a function of time and color displayed.
What you suggest would be a method to try and prevent burn-in.

 

Except it won't work if the burn-in isn't caused by age-worn OLED's but from the OLED staying on consecutively for too long (heat?  Internal resistance?).  If that's the case, then two frame "cumulation" buffers could theoretically be identical but one screen might actually have the burn and the other not.


Send this to all your friends! When will this stupidity end? So hysterical: Vertical Video Syndrome --- a PSA.
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post #6309 of 11484 Old 07-20-2013, 08:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by piquadrat View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by JWhip View Post

Btw, the burn in was most visible when that section of the screen was showing one color, regardless of what that color was. It was visible on a white screen, a green screen. While visible on a screen displaying content, it was visible, just not as visible as with a one color screen. I didn't think to take pics on all types of screens, as the pic I took was representive of what was visible. The picture I took was part of the loop. It just so happens that that section of screen was showing a blue sky when I took the picture. As for the Samsung, Robert advised me after reading my piece that the Samsung uses a RGB system not LG's WRGB system.

That's because of uneven wear of subpixel's brigtness. Each subpixel has its own white light source. While the spectrum of this light is more or less stable it's brightness apparently is not. If the brightness of particular subpixel changes there is a color shift visible in per pixel basis. Don't know why you guys think that LG's WRGB is color-shift-proofed?
So if red subpixel is worn out locally this will be visible on red and white if white is RGB assisted (not W alone). On white chart the effect will be less apparent because of the white subpixel assistance. But the same pixel can be also have green subpixel worn out which will be visible on green and white etc.
This is not a rocket science.

 

What we're talking about is figuring out the underpinning is of each of the subpixels.  In the case of the "worn out red" that you're talking about, it would have to be related to the blue or yellow underneath.  We're trying to figure out how the underpinnings are constructed and how the lack of a color shifted white burn might expose what's going on underneath.


Send this to all your friends! When will this stupidity end? So hysterical: Vertical Video Syndrome --- a PSA.
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post #6310 of 11484 Old 07-20-2013, 11:12 AM
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Robert Zohn from **************** will be receiving OLED tv's next week. biggrin.gif

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post #6312 of 11484 Old 07-20-2013, 11:32 AM
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Robert Zohn from **************** will be receiving OLED tv's next week. biggrin.gif

Some updated info on their site:
http://www.kn55s9.com/

$14999, ouch!eek.gif

Can't wait for the world's first unboxing and review of large retail OLED.

I find it truly sad for LG that Samsung beat them to market. After all the PR and hoopla... Someone at LG needs to get fired.
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post #6313 of 11484 Old 07-20-2013, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by ynotgoal View Post

 

Ok, hold on a sec.  Help me out.

 

Looking at the first stack on the left.

 

(?) The Glass is the facing glass of the display, or the substrate under everything?  Is this showing light emitting downward?  The Cathode (where current exits but electrons enter) supplies the electron transport/injection layer and is the fluorescent blue (and later the phosphorescent yellow---er "green/red") the actual thin-film luminescents?  Those are the blue & yellow "emitters", referred to by the prior documents, correct?


Send this to all your friends! When will this stupidity end? So hysterical: Vertical Video Syndrome --- a PSA.
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post #6314 of 11484 Old 07-20-2013, 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

What we're talking about is figuring out the underpinning is of each of the subpixels.  In the case of the "worn out red" that you're talking about, it would have to be related to the blue or yellow underneath.  We're trying to figure out how the underpinnings are constructed and how the lack of a color shifted white burn might expose what's going on underneath.
If the wearing pattern was gray or white (so all RGBW channels aged evenly) all you have to do is by looking at the color of the ghost image on pure white chart displayed.
If the ghost image is gray it's caused by the brightness-wear-out, if it's colored it's caused by spectrum-wear-out (color shift of RGB/BY layer).
But if the wearing pattern was not gray or white the above coloration could be a result of the brightness-wear-out as well (each subpixel aging independently). We have to avoid this because brightness-wear-out tells us nothing about the structure of the oled layer, only spectrum change can give some clues. That's why the extraction of the spectrum-wear-out is necessary.
Without the controlled environment this is quite impossible.
On the other hand doing some spectroscopy of W channel (most probably unfiltered) tells you all about the oled layer structure instantly.
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post #6315 of 11484 Old 07-21-2013, 03:24 AM
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The current LG is a "bottom emission" TGM. It's less efficient as a result. They will change that to be a "top emission" in the next generation.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #6316 of 11484 Old 07-22-2013, 06:20 AM
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FWIW, I took a look to see if I could find any reports of burn-in on Sony's line of professional OLED monitors and came up empty. The structure of the Sony monitors is different but the limiting factor of the lifetime is still the blue material (regardless of whose blue they are using). The question is whether Sony is doing something to compensate for the blue material aging, the usage patterns of professional displays are sufficiently different that burn-in isnt a concern, or simply that the Harrod's LG display is a one-off for whatever reason.
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post #6317 of 11484 Old 07-22-2013, 07:22 AM
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LG Display reaffirms OLED as ultimate display tech. Updates on flexible OLEDs and new TV fab


Source: Oled-info.com

LG Display reported their financial results for Q2 2013. Revenues decreased slightly to $5.8 billion and the net income was $93 million. Overall this was a good report as the company turned profitable and their outlook for Q3 was strong.

Regarding OLEDs, Hee Yeon Kim, LGD's Head of Investor Relations said that the company still sees OLED as their ultimate differentiated products and they will continue to focus on obtaining on OLED business space that would generate profit from this business as early as possible. About 80% of LGD's CapEx in 2013 will go towards OLED and LTPS and other "advanced display effects".

OLED TV yields are continually improving and the setting up of the 2nd OLED fab (M2) has been carried out on schedule. They still aim to start mass-scale production (26,000 monthly Gen-8 substrates) in the middle of 2014, but exact ramping-up hasn't been decided yet as it depends on yield improvements. They will give more details hopefully in the first half of 2014.

Regarding LG's plastic-based OLED, they said again that they will start production in the middle of the second half of 2013. We know that one of LGD's clients is LG Electronics, who wants to produce the first flexible-OLED phone by the end of 2013.
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post #6318 of 11484 Old 07-22-2013, 09:03 AM
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I have been trying, (and failing), to find out what the implication of Gen 8 is.


Send this to all your friends! When will this stupidity end? So hysterical: Vertical Video Syndrome --- a PSA.
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post #6319 of 11484 Old 07-22-2013, 09:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ynotgoal View Post

I will say that OLED actually stands for "organic light emitting device" .. it's not a diode at all, though it's common to see it referred to that way.

 

Trying to pin things down here, one at a time.

 

I did some digging and I'm fairly certain you're wrong here.  OLED's are a variant of light emitting diodes, and they are in fact diodes: They are dual terminal with non-symetric conductance.  It's not merely "common to see it referred to that way": It's hard to find any documentation at all that doesn't specifically refer to them as "Organic Light Emitting Diodes", including the old stuff from Kodak you mention.  And I can't find anything at all that goes out of its way to counter that notion directly.

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Send this to all your friends! When will this stupidity end? So hysterical: Vertical Video Syndrome --- a PSA.
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post #6320 of 11484 Old 07-22-2013, 10:32 AM
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Long time lurker, first time posting. I'd love to own one of these OLED TVs.

CNET just published they are finally shipping to stores this week!
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post #6321 of 11484 Old 07-22-2013, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

I have been trying, (and failing), to find out what the implication of Gen 8 is.

A Gen 8 fab refers to the size of the substrate that is being produced. In the case of a Gen 8 fab, the substrates will be 2200mm by 2500mm. That is large enough to produce 6 55" televisions on a single substrate versus only 2 55" televisions that could be produced on the Gen 5.5 substrates that are currently in production.

Most of the LCD televisions in the world are built on Gen 8 fabs due to the economies of scale provided by the larger substrates.

The fact that LG is building a Gen 8 fab gives us at least the possibility of competitively priced OLED televisions. The question is if/when the yields will hit a level at least close to LCD's.
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post #6322 of 11484 Old 07-22-2013, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by tubby497 View Post

Robert Zohn from **************** will be receiving OLED tv's next week. biggrin.gif
Can you tell Robert Zohn to try out the motion tests at www.testufo.com, especially this one: www.testufo.com/#test=eyetracking.

The eye tracking test looks very different on a CRT than on most LCD.
I want to know if the LG OLED makes this pattern look more similar to a CRT than to an LCD.

(Due to precision of animation, please use these web browsers: IE10, Chrome, Opera15+, or FF24+ pre-beta -- with a recent graphics card and GPU-acceleration enabled. IE10 and Chrome will work reliably for perfect 60fps@60Hz)

Thanks,
Mark Rejhon

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BlurBusters Blog -- Eliminating Motion Blur by 90%+ on LCD for games and computers

Rooting for upcoming low-persistence rolling-scan OLEDs too!

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LG's 55-inch curved OLED TV hits Best Buy for $14,999

A Best Buy store in Richfield, Minnesota is the first retailer to stock the 55-inch set, which is available beginning today for just shy of 15 grand.
It's due to hit Magnolia stores at select Best Buys in Los Angeles, New York, Miami, Houston, Dallas, San Francisco, Chicago, Seattle and San Antonio over the next few weeks.
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LG's 55-inch curved OLED TV hits Best Buy for $14,999

A Best Buy store in Richfield, Minnesota is the first retailer to stock the 55-inch set, which is available beginning today for just shy of 15 grand.
It's due to hit Magnolia stores at select Best Buys in Los Angeles, New York, Miami, Houston, Dallas, San Francisco, Chicago, Seattle and San Antonio over the next few weeks.

I verified this is true and posted a report in this thread in this forum.
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post #6325 of 11484 Old 07-23-2013, 10:51 AM
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Like any new technology, it's going to start expensive and get cheaper. Today's $14,999 is tomorrow's $1,499. I can't wait.


by Geoffrey Morrison July 22, 2013 11:15 AM PDT

CNET: LG and Samsung OLED HDTVs available now: What you need to know
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Originally Posted by Whatstreet View Post

Quote:
Like any new technology, it's going to start expensive and get cheaper. Today's $14,999 is tomorrow's $1,499. I can't wait.


by Geoffrey Morrison July 22, 2013 11:15 AM PDT

CNET: LG and Samsung OLED HDTVs available now: What you need to know

 

I'd like GM to confirm that the RGB stack image is *indeed* from LG themselves.  Because frankly, this is getting confusing.  Unless they're regarding the "yellow" emitter as "red/green" like they did in the image that ynotgoal supplied.


Send this to all your friends! When will this stupidity end? So hysterical: Vertical Video Syndrome --- a PSA.
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post #6327 of 11484 Old 07-23-2013, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slacker711 
FWIW, I took a look to see if I could find any reports of burn-in on Sony's line of professional OLED monitors and came up empty. The structure of the Sony monitors is different but the limiting factor of the lifetime is still the blue material (regardless of whose blue they are using). The question is whether Sony is doing something to compensate for the blue material aging, the usage patterns of professional displays are sufficiently different that burn-in isnt a concern, or simply that the Harrod's LG display is a one-off for whatever reason.

There should be at least a few burn-in reports out there since there are warnings in the Operating Instructions.

[pdf]
Quote:
2011 BVM OLED monitor:

Due to the characteristics of the material used in the
OLED panel for its high-precision images, permanent
burn-in may occur if still images are displayed in the same
position on the screen continuously, or repeatedly over
extended periods.

Images that may cause burn-in

• Masked images with aspect ratios other than 16:9
• Color bars or images that remain static for a long time
• Character or message displays that indicate settings or
the operating state
• On-screen displays such as center markers or area
markers

To reduce the risk of burn-in

• Turn off the character and marker displays
Press the MENU button to turn off the character displays.
To turn off the character or marker displays of the
connected equipment, operate the connected equipment
accordingly. For details, refer to the operation manual of
the connected equipment.
• Turn off the power when not in use
Turn off the power if the viewfinder is not to be used for
a prolonged period of time.

Screen saver

This product has a built-in screen saver function to reduce
burn-in. When an almost still image is displayed for more
than 10 minutes, the screen saver starts automatically and
the brightness of the screen decreases.

On a Long Period of Use

Due to an OLED’s panel structure and characteristics of
materials in its design, displaying static images for
extended periods, or using the unit repeatedly in a high
temperature/high humidity environments may cause image
smearing, burn-in, areas of which brightness is
permanently changed, lines, or a decrease in overall
brightness.

In particular, continued display of an image smaller than
the monitor screen, such as in a different aspect ratio, may
shorten the life of the unit.
Avoid displaying a still image for an extended period, or
using the unit repeatedly in a high temperature/high
humidity environment such an airtight room, or around the
outlet of an air conditioner.

To prevent any of the above issues, we recommend
reducing brightness slightly, and to turn off the power
whenever the unit is not in use.
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post #6328 of 11484 Old 07-23-2013, 12:10 PM
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↑ == Disaster
 

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Send this to all your friends! When will this stupidity end? So hysterical: Vertical Video Syndrome --- a PSA.
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post #6329 of 11484 Old 07-23-2013, 12:15 PM
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^^^^

these burn in warnings have always accompanied OLED display announcements: as they do for plasma (and even LCD) displays

what we need to know is how burn in issues will be handled: the message I get is it is not covered by warranty, yet some retailers may offer extended protection...

if not, I agree it will not be a good start for this new technology

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post #6330 of 11484 Old 07-23-2013, 01:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markrubin View Post

^^^^

these burn in warnings have always accompanied OLED display announcements: as they do for plasma (and even LCD) displays

 

Not for $15,000 displays they're not.  Besides, regardless, I'm concerned about a big distinction here that I'm not sure many are considering.  A pretty bad "what if".

 

On a plasma set, if you display a big bright "X" in the middle of a black screen and hold it there for a long time, you'll eventually get some IR....perhaps eventual burn.  If, however, you display for only a second at a time, interspersed with 3 seconds of random patterns, then the IR doesn't show up.

 

HOWEVER, if the burn in on an OLED comes from age, then the only thing that those 3 seconds will do will be to make it take 4x longer for the burn in to occur.  There is likely no pixel-orbiter or cycling pattern "repair" effect to come to the rescue.


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Reply OLED Technology and Flat Panels General

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