OLED TVs: Technology Advancements Thread - Page 214 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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Old 07-30-2013, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post

For what it's worth, the only confirmed U.S. Samsung dealer will be doing mandatory 200 hour aging of all panels using Samsung recommended color slides before sending them to customers. He will also track luminance drop over time. Hopefully that will give us better data about projected half-life of these sets.

 

THAT is both perfect AND responsible.  Wonderful!  Can't wait to see what happens.


Cogito ergo sum makes a fundamental mistake because it ignores the implied existence of the narrator. Descartes might as well have said "A rose is red, therefore I am".
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Old 07-30-2013, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post

mandatory 200 hour aging of all panels using Samsung recommended color slides before sending them to customers.
Mandatory aging with Samsung-supplied patterns? Are you sure this is not just them taking initiative to try and prevent some returns? If the sets required 200 hours run-in, surely Samsung would be doing it at the factory.

 

This also occurred to me.  And it bothers me a lot, especially since we're talking about low numbers.  For higher production volumes, 200 hours per unit at the factory quickly becomes flat out undoable, but for now?  Unless they're trying to "train" the retailers now for the eventual increase in production....(?)


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Old 07-30-2013, 10:24 AM
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I think aging of the panels is a good idea, if done properly, without the menu being left up

we also need a better definition of half life: with plasma we assumed the wear was even for colors, but with OLED we know that there is uneven aging of certain colors

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Old 07-30-2013, 11:19 AM
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I think aging of the panels is a good idea, if done properly, without the menu being left up

we also need a better definition of half life: with plasma we assumed the wear was even for colors, but with OLED we know that there is uneven aging of certain colors

 

I have to wonder about that menu (in the LG case).  Did they forget about stickers?


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Old 07-30-2013, 01:38 PM
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This paper confirms excellent visual properties of OLED. The only issue to be clarified yet is long-term burn-in.

And can production be ramped up and costs reduced dramatically.

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Old 07-30-2013, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post

For what it's worth, the only confirmed U.S. Samsung dealer will be doing mandatory 200 hour aging of all panels using Samsung recommended color slides before sending them to customers. He will also track luminance drop over time. Hopefully that will give us better data about projected half-life of these sets.

Well, he's not going to be very busy, is he?

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Old 07-30-2013, 03:31 PM
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Well, he's not going to be very busy, is he?

Not with 2 units.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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Old 07-30-2013, 11:37 PM
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And can production be ramped up and costs reduced dramatically.

If burn-in is not shown to be non-issue ramping-up makes no sense. Reports from mobile show AMOLED screens are prone to burn-in.
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Old 07-31-2013, 01:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

Mandatory aging with Samsung-supplied patterns? Are you sure this is not just them taking initiative to try and prevent some returns? If the sets required 200 hours run-in, surely Samsung would be doing it at the factory.
For what it's worth, I'm hearing that the Samsung display is significantly better than the LG one.

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This also occurred to me.  And it bothers me a lot, especially since we're talking about low numbers.  For higher production volumes, 200 hours per unit at the factory quickly becomes flat out undoable, but for now?  Unless they're trying to "train" the retailers now for the eventual increase in production....(?)

Well, he's also doing this primary because the sets will come professionally pre-calibrated. The 200 hour break-in is standard practice before doing any calibrations in order to obtain stable results. Preventing burn-in will hopefully be an added benefit but can't be confirmed as effective until more testing is done. For all we know, maybe the sets are already pre-aged at the factory. We should know more after the luminance tracking data becomes available.
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Old 07-31-2013, 06:25 AM
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If burn-in is not shown to be non-issue ramping-up makes no sense. Reports from mobile show AMOLED screens are prone to burn-in.

I agree but I think these companies feel they need to solve other manufacturing issues in parallel.

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Old 07-31-2013, 07:59 AM
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Just read this discussion on OLED IR and burn-in. As you know any display that generates light inside individual pixels will be prone to burn-in issues (CRT,PDP,SED,FED, OLED...etc). And the severity of the burn-in problem can be correlated with the rated lifetime of the set.

Since the lifetime of OLED is relatively low compared to PDP I would say that the burn-in problem would be worse than PDP. However, PDP was unique that it had a severe type of IR caused by MgO sputtering and IMO was the primary source of the poor PDP "burn-in" reputation. Taking that into account it is hard to predict just how problematic the burn-in problem will be for OLED relative to PDP.

Note that there are reports of both IR and mura in OLED devices as well. The source seems to be issues with charge transport changes through the backplane and OLED layers.

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Old 07-31-2013, 08:19 AM
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Just read this discussion on OLED IR and burn-in. As you know any display that generates light inside individual pixels will be prone to burn-in issues (CRT,PDP,SED,FED, OLED...etc). And the severity of the burn-in problem can be correlated with the rated lifetime of the set.

Since the lifetime of OLED is relatively low compared to PDP I would say that the burn-in problem would be worse than PDP. However, PDP was unique that it had a severe type of IR caused by MgO sputtering and IMO was the primary source of the poor PDP "burn-in" reputation. Taking that into account it is hard to predict just how problematic the burn-in problem will be for OLED relative to PDP.

Note that there are reports of both IR and mura in OLED devices as well. The source seems to be issues with charge transport changes through the backplane and OLED layers.

 

The physics of the burn-in are of course important to understand in all display technologies, but as I see it, the true bottom line that we still don't fully understand yet is which of the two "types" of burn in is this?

 

Is BI caused by:

  • Consecutive pounding of static images (as with plasma...this is "fixed" by interspersing random data), or
  • Nominal age of the subpixel, consecutive excitation or otherwise.

Cogito ergo sum makes a fundamental mistake because it ignores the implied existence of the narrator. Descartes might as well have said "A rose is red, therefore I am".
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Old 07-31-2013, 09:11 AM
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Is BI caused by:
  • Consecutive pounding of static images (as with plasma...this is "fixed" by interspersing random data), or
  • Nominal age of the subpixel, consecutive excitation or otherwise.
In AVS terminology your type 1 would be IR and type 2 would be burn-in. As I described above, the change in charge transport properties with usage may produce IR on OLED and the quick EL material aging may produce burn-in so they may have both. Add to that the possibility of mura.

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Old 07-31-2013, 10:43 AM
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Just wondering if the burn-in potential of OLED is why manufacturers are avoiding any mention of using OLED in computer monitors??? On the surface, computer (laptop/tablet) displays would make much sense with OLED.
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Old 07-31-2013, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by xrox View Post

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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

Is BI caused by:
  • Consecutive pounding of static images (as with plasma...this is "fixed" by interspersing random data), or
  • Nominal age of the subpixel, consecutive excitation or otherwise.
In AVS terminology your type 1 would be IR and type 2 would be burn-in.

 

Not quite, I should have been more clear about "fixed".  In both cases, they refer to burn in potential.  Even in plasma, you pound consecutively long enough and you'll get permanent burn in.  If you intersperse that with random material, even if you still have the total amount of "on" time the same you'll avoid burn in.

 

Quote:
As I described above, the change in charge transport properties with usage may produce IR on OLED

 

Regardless, for most of us, these terms are primarily from a plasma intuition set.  I believe the chances of IR being possible that is not BI to be a bit of a reach.  So to that extent, we should really refrain from even using a distinction in terms and stay with burn in until we see otherwise.  There is no documented charge residue (or anything similar) like that of a plasma cell.  Or is there?


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Old 07-31-2013, 12:04 PM
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Not quite, I should have been more clear about "fixed".  In both cases, they refer to burn in potential.  Even in plasma, you pound consecutively long enough and you'll get permanent burn in.  If you intersperse that with random material, even if you still have the total amount of "on" time the same you'll avoid burn in.
IIUC I would then disagree. Interspersing random material cannot protect you from uneven phosphor aging in a PDP. It only protects against non-phosphor related image retention like MgO sputtering and residual charge.
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Not quite, I should have been more clear about "fixed". In bothRegardless, for most of us, these terms are primarily from a plasma intuition set.  I believe the chances of IR being possible that is not BI to be a bit of a reach.  So to that extent, we should really refrain from even using a distinction in terms and stay with burn in until we see otherwise.  There is no documented charge residue (or anything similar) like that of a plasma cell.  Or is there?
OLED is such a widely variable technology. There are papers discussing mura and IR in OLED due to the backplane effects but who knows if it applies across the board or only to certain backplane technologies.

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Old 07-31-2013, 12:34 PM
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We're talking past each other on the first point.  What I'm saying is that your notion that what I said regarding consecutive display was called IR was not quite right: it also leads to burn in.  I said "fixable", when I should have said "preventable".  The uneven wearing thing is unrelated to that.

 

Doesn't matter.  In any case, I see only trouble making assumptions about the consecutive style of burn being IR, or even somehow not the same thing as age.  There's nothing that I can see that indicates for OLEDS 10 hours on high all at once is worse than 10 hours on high with random images in between.

 

We'll know a whole lot more fairly soon now that we've got retailers in hot pursuit of what's what.  Or a retailer as it may be.
 


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Old 07-31-2013, 12:43 PM
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We're talking past each other on the first point.  What I'm saying is that the notion that what I said regarding consecutive display was called IR was not quite right: it also leads to burn in.  I said "fixable", when I should have said "preventable".  The uneven wearing thing is unrelated to that.
Recently I've been having trouble interpreting posts so it is probably me. From the original statements about pounding consecutive images vs excitation....etc I am confused how they are different types of Burn In. I fail to see the difference.

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Old 07-31-2013, 09:22 PM
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Think at the pixel level.
The pixels burn-in do not depend on each other. Just because one pixel is bright, doesn't affect wear-and-tear of the adjacent pixel.
It's simply the contrast in wear-and-tear between adjacent pixels that becomes visible to the human eye.

Metaphors may help.
One smartphone manufacturer (that I worked for) that uses an OLED screen in some of the phones, have used the candle metaphor to describe OLED burn. I thought it was a very accurate "Plain English(tm)" explanation of why burn-in becomes visible to human eye.

This means:
- Basically, each pixel is like a candle that lasts approximately 20,000 hours of average picture level (insert your favourite number here)*
- There are a few million candles on a 1080p OLED. (1920 times 1080, times subpixels, depending on RGB or pentile)
- The candle burns fastest when the candle is new.
- The candle goes gradually dimmer as it burns down.
- The candle burns fastest when the pixel is brightest.
- The candle burns slowest when the pixel is darkest.
- The burning speed of the candle gradually slows down as the candle burns down. Dimmer if the candle is old.
- "Visible burn in" now means "some candles (pixels) burned down far more than adjacent candles (pixels), to the point where you can easily see visible differences in brightness between adjacent candles"

Thusly:
- The first, say, 200 hours, the candle burns fastest and brightest, creating largest differentials between adjacent candles if you don't wear evenly. This shows up as noticeable burn in, as the newer brighter-burning candles contrast with the older slower-burning candles.
- Doing a factory burn allows the fast-burn phase to be done-over-with, so that the candles burn slower. So that the burn-time asymmetry between adjacent candles create less differences (and thus, prevents burn in from becoming noticeable after a short time period).
- Rated 20,000 hours is only based on average picture level. This can easily mean 5,000 hours of full-white, 10,000 hours of bright gray, 20,000 hours of medium gray, or 40,000 hours of dim gray, infinite hours of full black (candle is off), etc. Again, replace with your favorite numbers, but you get the approximate idea.
- The graph of burnspeed-versus-pixel-intensity is not linear. It can vary from tech to tech and display to display (e.g. plasma vs. OLED). It's a steep cliff that plateaus out.
- The more you burn, the differences between adjacent candles become smaller small because you go into the plateau. So you can erase burn in just by keeping using the display to cause the pixels to plateau out. The burn-in will become fainter over time.
- Sometimes there's an additional short-term component to the burn-in too. (e.g. when the display cools down or when you exercise the pixel, burn-in disappears quickly). So a new variable may be added: An overheated/static candle can burn dimmer (and still burn down fast), while a cooled-down/variable candle will burn brighter (and matching adjacent pixels better). This covers the temporary image-retention aspect.

So you don't have to use the same image to create burn in.
-- It can be black bars (letterbox burn in)
-- It can be semi-static images that orbits closely around each other, like an animated station logo (it creates a blurry burn-in)
-- It can be area-differences in average picture level. A splitscreen video (video touching each other directly, no borders, no black gaps) can still create burn in. This is when one video is on average brighter and the other is on average darker. If you run these looping for hundreds of hours, you will get burn in, even though you never ever had black boundaries or gaps. This is because the brighter video burnt those candles faster. This is a use case that very RARELY happens, though, but it does happen, and has happened before (e.g. advertising billboards)

With the candle metaphor, there is no concept of "different kinds of burn-in". Just "different burn-in use cases" and "different burn-in patterns, including blurry burn-in and sharp burn-in"

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Old 08-01-2013, 01:49 AM
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I would pay good money right now to watch a webcast where a couple of AV experts actually sit down for a period of time with one of these new OLED sets, offering their impressions as they try out a variety of material.

Surely someone's onto this? I can imagine it would only help in Robert Zohn's bid to sell these TVs.
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Old 08-01-2013, 06:17 AM
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Well, pass the hat, we can all buy one together and after the Pros get done playing with it they can give it away to a random member.

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Old 08-01-2013, 07:01 AM
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For purposes of this sub-discussion, "different kinds of burn in" is conversationally the same as "different causes of burn in".

 

Also, I still see nothing at all indicating that there might be a "fixable" style of IR with OLED.
 


Cogito ergo sum makes a fundamental mistake because it ignores the implied existence of the narrator. Descartes might as well have said "A rose is red, therefore I am".
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Old 08-01-2013, 08:12 AM
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Quote:
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Think at the pixel level.
The pixels burn-in do not depend on each other. Just because one pixel is bright, doesn't affect wear-and-tear of the adjacent pixel.
It's simply the contrast in wear-and-tear between adjacent pixels that becomes visible to the human eye.
What I think is causing confusion is that PDP does not fit well into your metaphor.

The stubborn burnt in images we see in a PDP are caused by sputtering of magnesium oxide. This is a phenomenon that affects adjacent cells as well as the primary cell. In a PDP the pixels are open to each other and when one cell is discharging it affects the cells next to it by supplying charged particles and sputtered materials. This is why even stubborn IR is somewhat reversible in PDP.

Now phosphor aging does fit your metaphor but is really not what people are seeing as the lifespans of PDP phosphors are 100K hours or more.

OLED on the other hand has the EL material aging much faster and therefore IMO is much more probable as the primary cause of the burnt in images people are reporting.

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Old 08-01-2013, 12:35 PM
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Well, pass the hat, we can all buy one together and after the Pros get done playing with it they can give it away to a random member.

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Can I change my name to "a random member?" wink.gif
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Old 08-01-2013, 01:48 PM
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Seems the Sammy curved rollout at VE has been delayed till August 14th. Quite a moving target!

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Old 08-01-2013, 03:27 PM
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OLED sets have been described as boasting colours which are extremely vivid, bordering on 'cartoony'.

I haven't seen one of the new 55" TV sets in the flesh, but that's also an impression I get from OLED screens on mobile phones.

Forgive my ignorance in the science of this, but is the sometimes 'wax crayony'-style colour something that can be adjusted and dialled down to something more 'natural', or is it an inherent quirk of the technology that we'll just have to live with?
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Old 08-01-2013, 03:36 PM
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OLED sets have been described as boasting colours which are extremely vivid, bordering on 'cartoony'.

I haven't seen one of the new 55" TV sets in the flesh, but that's also an impression I get from OLED screens on mobile phones.

Forgive my ignorance in the science of this, but is the sometimes 'wax crayony'-style colour something that can be adjusted and dialled down to something more 'natural', or is it an inherent quirk of the technology that we'll just have to live with?

 

I've heard this too, but I think it's because various places are trying to show off the level of saturation they can achieve.  Or some such ill-conceived notion.  There should be nothing inherently cartoony about the color coming from OLED.  It's entirely about what you send to it, and the predictability of the device allowing you to calibrate it.  It's gamut is supposed to be fairly large, and I think people are trying to showcase that.

 

I don't know what you're talking about with regard to cell phones.  My Samsung Galaxy Note II has an OLED screen, and the photos on it are fantastic.


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Old 08-01-2013, 08:09 PM
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The stubborn burnt in images we see in a PDP are caused by sputtering of magnesium oxide. This is a phenomenon that affects adjacent cells as well as the primary cell.
[re my "candle" metaphor of burn-in (e.g. pixel as candles)]
Yes, candle behavior is different in plasmas than in OLED's.
For example for plasma, candles would tend to produce soot when burning brightly, affecting its own brightness and immediately-adjacent candles. Candles affected by soot would burn more dimly.
OLED candles would burn a little more "pure" without the sputter effect.

So the candle metaphor can still technically be used for plasma (to a lesser/modified extent), just need to be modified to address the different specifics of plasma behaviour. smile.gif
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Rooting for upcoming low-persistence rolling-scan OLEDs too!

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Old 08-02-2013, 03:02 AM
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Originally Posted by JWhip View Post

Seems the Sammy curved rollout at VE has been delayed till August 14th. Quite a moving target!

Look's like the U.S. will join Korea and UK - sets on demo for months but nothing anyone can actually buy.

This is all a contest between LG and Samsung. Each side is waiting for the other to make the first move. Do you think it was a coincidence that LG just happened to announce their curved set the same week as Samsung? Also their sudden change in plans from launching the flat version to going with the curved.

I just hope VE or BB end up getting at least 1 set to sell this year so we have something to talk about.
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Old 08-02-2013, 06:28 AM
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Arrrrrrrgh.  I'm suffering from OLED Burn-Out Syndrome.  OBOS is dangerous people.

 

If you find yourself reading about OLED for longer than 4 hours, consult your doctor.


Cogito ergo sum makes a fundamental mistake because it ignores the implied existence of the narrator. Descartes might as well have said "A rose is red, therefore I am".
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