OLED TVs: Technology Advancements Thread - Page 217 - AVS Forum
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post #6481 of 11414 Old 08-05-2013, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

As much as the contrast ratio and true black level sound thrilling, the suggestions that this technology is subject to the motion-blur sample and hold effect, like LCDs, is a major
come-down. The choice being, apparently, added blur to motion (yuck) or suffering the soap opera effect (huge yuck!). So, back where we've been with LCD.

Great. Just great.
As I posted a little earlier, it's been reported that Displaymate's Raymond Soneira says Samsung OLED tech uses the plasma approach of pulse width modulation, instead of LG's approach of sample and hold, so I might not give up all hope just yet....
Quote:
MT, here's the explanation Raymond sent us:

Plasma displays, DLP, and Samsung OLEDs all use Pulse Width Modulation to independently control the intensity (Luminance) of every single R,G,B sub-pixel in the entire display. In Pulse Width Modulation each sub-pixel is continuously switched at a very high rate (typically greater than 100KHz) between the fully Off and fully On states by the display controller and AM Active Matrix. The percentage of time that a sub-pixel spends in the On state determines its particular observed visual Luminance. For example, within an given image refresh frame, if a particular sub-pixel spends 25% of the time in the On state and 75% in the Off state, it will have 25% of the peak Luminance for that sub-pixel at that instant. This makes it easy to digitally control the entire image and apply all of the desired display calibrations digitally as well.
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post #6482 of 11414 Old 08-05-2013, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Desk. View Post

As I posted a little earlier, it's been reported that Displaymate's Raymond Soneira says Samsung OLED tech uses the plasma approach of pulse width modulation, instead of LG's approach of sample and hold, so I might not give up all hope just yet....
That was talking about a phone-sized display though, so it's not a safe assumption to make that it will be the same when they scale it up.
For what it's worth, I have been told that Samsung's OLED TV appeared to use discrete levels of gradation like an LCD display, rather than PWM like a Plasma from someone that has had the opportunity to spend some time with it.

I suppose it's possible that with switching times that fast, you could use a lot of subfields to help reduce the artifacts that PWM causes, but that seems unlikely.
I don't know why they would choose to use pulse-width modulation if the display is capable of discrete gradation. It might make sense in a phone display to try and reduce power consumption though.

If they end up using PWM with OLEDs, my interest in the technology drops to zero.
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post #6483 of 11414 Old 08-05-2013, 06:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

As much as the contrast ratio and true black level sound thrilling, the suggestions that this technology is subject to the motion-blur sample and hold effect, like LCDs, is a major come-down. The choice being, apparently, added blur to motion (yuck) or suffering the soap opera effect (huge yuck!). So, back where we've been with LCD.

Great. Just great.

Samsung makes this claim:

• Blur-free Motion: Another advantage of individually controlled pixels is the detailed, smooth and clear picture quality presented that is free of any motion blur. This motion clarity is 100 times more clear than an LED screen.

http://www.samsung.com/global/article/articleDetailView.do?atcl_id=61734

Click on the "Samsung OLED Television" link, then select "OLED PICTURE QUALITY" -> "BLUR-LESS MOTION" for an interactive comparison to "conventional TV".
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post #6484 of 11414 Old 08-05-2013, 09:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ynotgoal View Post

Samsung makes this claim:

• Blur-free Motion: Another advantage of individually controlled pixels is the detailed, smooth and clear picture quality presented that is free of any motion blur. This motion clarity is 100 times more clear than an LED screen.

http://www.samsung.com/global/article/articleDetailView.do?atcl_id=61734

Click on the "Samsung OLED Television" link, then select "OLED PICTURE QUALITY" -> "BLUR-LESS MOTION" for an interactive comparison to "conventional TV".

Marketing claims mean absolutely nothing.

Here is what it says on LG's site:

"The response speed of LG OLED is over one hundred times faster than LED TV, allowing you to enjoy fast moving scenes with completely blur-free, crystal clear pictures. All details and actions are as good as life on LG OLED TV."

We all know how that turned out. rolleyes.gif

Regarding PWM on the Samsung. I'll have to agree with Chronoptimist. The last thing we need is another display technology with dithering artifacts, posterization/banding during motion, etc. Also, none of the videos captured of the Samsung at trade-shows show any of the typical PWM flicker you see on plasma captures.

If the LG can do 105 fL in Vivid mode, all LG had to do was offer black-frame-insertion at 120hz. With 60hz content, the slight flicker would have been fine for many people. I've seen that mode on some Sony SXRD projectors and it was very usable (although a bit dim) for gaming. The reduction in blur was very drastic. This LG pumps out more brightness than any projector so I think it would have worked even better. If they must do interpolation, at least offer something better than 120hz - even their LCDs go higher.
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post #6485 of 11414 Old 08-05-2013, 10:09 PM
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...but one has to compensate for brightness decrease (with b-f-i). There would be no problem if oled's life was a linear function of brightness (emission) but usually it isn't. So decreasing time when subpixel is lit to half and increasing the emission by two times won't cancel each other and hurts life span even more.
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post #6486 of 11414 Old 08-05-2013, 11:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

What were the Sony XEL-1 or LG 15EL9500 then? Imaginary televisions?

Ah, you mean those 15" dwarfs which appeared like comets and are now forgotten?
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Originally Posted by markrubin View Post

yes certainly that is the plan
remember when flat panels was all one forum, and it grew so big that there was call to split it up: it was spit into 3 forums and that is the way it has been for several years
I can see a forth forum for OLED but it is a bit too soon...

I hope the current OLEDs fare much better than those above. Though reservation about creating new forum is well-deserved judging from the brave new world of OLED problems a bold step would put the AVS into the (risky) forefront. Anyway, it will be interesting to see when the OLED forum will be created i.e. when the mods get faith this is not comet technology anymore biggrin.gif. I wonder too if plasma displays disappear from shops the plasma forum will change to Vintage Plasma & History forum...
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post #6487 of 11414 Old 08-06-2013, 01:54 AM
 
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I wonder too if plasma displays disappear from shops the plasma forum will change to Vintage Plasma & History forum...
Let's not get ahead of ourselves (I know some have a knack for that).
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post #6488 of 11414 Old 08-06-2013, 05:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irkuck 

I hope the current OLEDs fare much better than those above. Though reservation about creating new forum is well-deserved judging from the brave new world of OLED problems a bold step would put the AVS into the (risky) forefront. Anyway, it will be interesting to see when the OLED forum will be created i.e. when the mods get faith this is not comet technology anymore biggrin.gif. I wonder too if plasma displays disappear from shops the plasma forum will change to Vintage Plasma & History forum...
Two $15.000 OLEDs, the curved 55'' LG and the curved 55'' Samsung, will be for sale soon and that it till end 2014. My prediction is that there will be no OLED Forum till 2015.
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post #6489 of 11414 Old 08-06-2013, 08:44 AM
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In regards to Samsung using pulse-width modulation rather than LG's sample and hold, this has been posted by HD Guru in response to questions about their experiece checking out the OLED LG set. Not sure where they read this, but I can't help but hope it's true...
Quote:
http://hdguru.com/lg-55ea9800-oled-hdtv-reviewed/#more-11091
David Mackenzie // Aug 4, 2013 at 10:07 am

>> “We asked LG how the OLED makes a picture and are waiting for a response. Specifically, is it like LED LCD, using a method called sample and hold, or more plasma’s method, called pulse-width modulation.”

OLED uses Sample and Hold.

Thanks Dave. As a practice we don’t make definitive technology statements until we get verification from the manufacturer. Better late than wrong.

We read recently that the 55-inch Samsung OLED is going to use pulse-width modulation(though it was not written by Samsung). We are waiting for the answer from Samsung.

HD Guru
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post #6490 of 11414 Old 08-06-2013, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by markrubin View Post

right here in this forum: the forum name has been updated

Looking forward to seeing the first owners thread here soon smile.gif

You might want to consider placing the OLED owners thread on the Plasma forum, since there are now only three companies offering them, and within a year or two there may be only one or none of them still offering them.
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post #6491 of 11414 Old 08-06-2013, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

Two $15.000 OLEDs, the curved 55'' LG and the curved 55'' Samsung, will be for sale soon and that it till end 2014. My prediction is that there will be no OLED Forum till 2015.

Maybe you are right but rumors are Sony, Panny and others are gearing up. In any case, it is certain OLED displays will generate huge amount of forum traffic due to the tons of new issues.
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You might want to consider placing the OLED owners thread on the Plasma forum, since there are now only three companies offering them, and within a year or two there may be only one or none of them still offering them.

Yeah, it seems OLED has closer affinity to Plasma than LCD due to the burn-in biggrin.gif.
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post #6492 of 11414 Old 08-06-2013, 09:34 AM
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I hope OLED will eventually live up to all the hype and get its own forum: and not just for issues

and I still think the reports of the death of Plasma panels are exaggerated

please take the high road in every post
if you see a problematic post, please do not quote it or respond to it: report it to the mods to handle
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post #6493 of 11414 Old 08-06-2013, 09:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

It is understood that only now first real OLED TVs appeared in shops. It would be thus entirely logical and innovative to have a new forum 'OLED Displays'. Otherwise where the 'Official Owner' threads will be located?
What were the Sony XEL-1 or LG 15EL9500 then? Imaginary televisions?

 

Yes.  :-)


Yes, it's true that color does not exist in the physical universe: it exists only in the brain. But this doesn't mean that one person can see blue internally as yellow and that another could see it as red. The reactions and recognition of colors is neurological in nature. Once it occurs there isn't yet another evaluation that takes place. Blue looks to me as blue in precisely the same way it does to you, by definition.
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post #6494 of 11414 Old 08-06-2013, 09:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ynotgoal View Post

Samsung makes this claim:

• Blur-free Motion: Another advantage of individually controlled pixels is the detailed, smooth and clear picture quality presented that is free of any motion blur. This motion clarity is 100 times more clear than an LED screen.

http://www.samsung.com/global/article/articleDetailView.do?atcl_id=61734

Click on the "Samsung OLED Television" link, then select "OLED PICTURE QUALITY" -> "BLUR-LESS MOTION" for an interactive comparison to "conventional TV".

Marketing claims mean absolutely nothing.

Here is what it says on LG's site:

"The response speed of LG OLED is over one hundred times faster than LED TV, allowing you to enjoy fast moving scenes with completely blur-free, crystal clear pictures. All details and actions are as good as life on LG OLED TV."

We all know how that turned out. rolleyes.gif

 

Maddening, isn't it?  And it spawns off ENDLESS corrections here and forcing people who know better to spend countless accumulated hours beating back misconceptions.

 

These guys have got to reign in the marketing department a tad.  It's almost as if the heavy hitters in the engineering department tell other lesser engineers just enough information to make them dangerous, and those 2nd tier engineers talk to the marketing department and then we have......"passive 3D can be viewed lying down".


Yes, it's true that color does not exist in the physical universe: it exists only in the brain. But this doesn't mean that one person can see blue internally as yellow and that another could see it as red. The reactions and recognition of colors is neurological in nature. Once it occurs there isn't yet another evaluation that takes place. Blue looks to me as blue in precisely the same way it does to you, by definition.
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post #6495 of 11414 Old 08-06-2013, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by greenland View Post

You might want to consider placing the OLED owners thread on the Plasma forum, since there are now only three companies offering them, and within a year or two there may be only one or none of them still offering them.

I think 4K deserves its own section more than OLED right now. Considering you can actually go to the store and take home a variety of 4K sets. The Bestbuy I was in had both the Sony and new Samsung and said they will be getting the LG 4K sets soon.
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post #6496 of 11414 Old 08-06-2013, 10:04 AM
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I think 4K deserves its own section more than OLED right now. Considering you can actually go to the store and take home a variety of 4K sets. The Bestbuy I was in had both the Sony and new Samsung and said they will be getting the LG 4K sets soon.

 

Not IMO.  There are far too many 2K vs. 4K posts out there currently, and besides, it's not a fundamental split in display technology.  It'd be like having one for 720p vs. 1080p back in the day.

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Yes, it's true that color does not exist in the physical universe: it exists only in the brain. But this doesn't mean that one person can see blue internally as yellow and that another could see it as red. The reactions and recognition of colors is neurological in nature. Once it occurs there isn't yet another evaluation that takes place. Blue looks to me as blue in precisely the same way it does to you, by definition.
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post #6497 of 11414 Old 08-06-2013, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by sytech View Post

I think 4K deserves its own section more than OLED right now. Considering you can actually go to the store and take home a variety of 4K sets. The Bestbuy I was in had both the Sony and new Samsung and said they will be getting the LG 4K sets soon.

There is already a Forum for those 4K models. It is the LCD Forum. There is no separate forums for LCD 720P and 1080P models, so there is no reason to create one for a new higher resolution category of LCD models.
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post #6498 of 11414 Old 08-06-2013, 01:48 PM
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I hope OLED will eventually live up to all the hype and get its own forum: and not just for issues

and I still think the reports of the death of Plasma panels are exaggerated

Yes OLED is OLED and Plasma is Plasma. Separate forum makes it easier to find what people are looking for. Some may be interested in Plasma after it's gone and the forum section would still be there though dead to new activity.
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post #6499 of 11414 Old 08-06-2013, 02:16 PM
 
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Even if they stopped plasma production tomorrow (as highly unlikely as that would be), that forum would see activity for years from current owners and those scrambling to buy used.
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post #6500 of 11414 Old 08-06-2013, 02:45 PM
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Maddening, isn't it?  And it spawns off ENDLESS corrections here and forcing people who know better to spend countless accumulated hours beating back misconceptions.
These guys have got to reign in the marketing department a tad.
It's not really marketing though - the OLED panel itself should have essentially no motion blur. What you see now are the effects of retinal persistence, which is something that Philips brought to light in 2006 with their "ClearLCD" (aka Aptura) displays.
I guess they just haven't been big in America, but Philips had been leading the way with a number of technologies to improve motion handling on their displays - they even had CRTs with motion interpolation to help smooth out film judder.

People have only just started to take notice of retinal-based motion blur recently - and it was only really "solved" when Sony started using backlight scanning on the HX900 LCDs using "Clear Plus" (aka Clear 2) MotionFlow, and then with the introduction of the Impulse Mode with the HX920. (which is Clear Plus without the interpolation, and suitable for gaming)
And of course there is also Lightboost in the PC world, which has even lower retinal persistence and operates at 120Hz rather than 60Hz to reduce flicker. It would be really nice if displays could accept their "native" refresh rate (120Hz/240Hz) via a DisplayPort input rather than being limited to 60Hz over HDMI, because that lets you reduce persistence further, without making flicker worse.

These technologies have done a very good job reducing retinal persistence-based motion blur, to levels far below Plasma displays, but there is still some remaining panel-based blur. (though it is minimal)
OLED should solve the panel blur issue, but takes us back to the days of sample & hold LCDs with 100% persistence, because they aren't bright enough to use dark frame insertion or scanning techniques yet.
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

Even if they stopped plasma production tomorrow (as highly unlikely as that would be), that forum would see activity for years from current owners and those scrambling to buy used.
People are blowing Panasonic's announcement of ending Plasma R&D way out of proportion. I bet they will still be in production for years to come, unless they have really found some breakthrough in their printing process that allows them to sell 4K OLED sets for the same price as their previous Plasmas. (highly unlikely)

And finishing R&D doesn't necessarily mean the end of progress for Plasmas either. For all we know, they have improvements planned out for the next five years of Plasmas, and we will continue to see improvements in performance. (realistically, I would only expect improvements next year though)
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post #6501 of 11414 Old 08-06-2013, 03:37 PM
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.....People are blowing Panasonic's announcement of ending Plasma R&D way out of proportion. I bet they will still be in production for years to come, unless they have really found some breakthrough in their printing process that allows them to sell 4K OLED sets for the same price as their previous Plasmas. (highly unlikely)

And finishing R&D doesn't necessarily mean the end of progress for Plasmas either. For all we know, they have improvements planned out for the next five years of Plasmas, and we will continue to see improvements in performance. (realistically, I would only expect improvements next year though)

With the market share and volume shipments so diminished, I can foresee a cliff in a couple of years. Only if OLED stays marginal, and no other technology steps up to the plate, will there be any long term hope for plasma. IMHO.


As to 4K or UHD, OLED or not, cabling is a concern. I haven't seen the HDMI 2.0 spec- it seems to be endlessly rescheduled. It MIGHT have better specs than DisplayPort, but DisplayPort is here today and is a known quantity that appears to meet the UHD requirements. UHD ain't going anywhere without those specs - and cables and equipment you can buy. It will take an awful lot of convincing to get me to replace my HDMI 1.3 AV receiver with a new one- HDMI 2.0 or DisplayPort. And so it will be for most. The sooner the equipment is on the street, the sooner some folks will start picking it out in their normal upgrade cycle.

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post #6502 of 11414 Old 08-06-2013, 05:14 PM
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The current HDMI spec supports 4K - but only at 30Hz.
The vast majority of video content in existence is 30fps or less (film is 24fps) so for most people, it's really not a big deal.

60Hz and above really only matters for PC use - admittedly that's the main reason anyone would want to buy a 4K display today though.
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post #6503 of 11414 Old 08-07-2013, 06:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

The current HDMI spec supports 4K - but only at 30Hz.
The vast majority of video content in existence is 30fps or less (film is 24fps) so for most people, it's really not a big deal.

60Hz and above really only matters for PC use - admittedly that's the main reason anyone would want to buy a 4K display today though.

Being able to input 50 or 60 hz to a 4k display matters to those of us who want options as to where the scaling of source material takes place. I won't buy a 4k display until I can scale 1080i or p with an external video processor or AVR etc. Reports on the scaling ability of Seiki (sp?) and my observations of Sony 4k sets leave me depressed. Since 1080 and 720p will be the major source material for a long time being able to have a choice for scaling is very important.
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post #6504 of 11414 Old 08-07-2013, 09:03 AM
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Being able to input 50 or 60 hz to a 4k display matters to those of us who want options as to where the scaling of source material takes place. I won't buy a 4k display until I can scale 1080i or p with an external video processor or AVR etc. Reports on the scaling ability of Seiki (sp?) and my observations of Sony 4k sets leave me depressed. Since 1080 and 720p will be the major source material for a long time being able to have a choice for scaling is very important.

I agree. Are any of the current 4k displays even configured to allow 2x or 3x pixel resize for 1080p and 720p signals respectively (no pixel averaging/point sample)? What external processors exist for 4k upscaling at 60Hz?

Can't wait to see the LG 55EA9800. It was somewhat surprising to see HDGURUs low motion resolution bench, but I'm not sure that is completely telling. If it's anything like the motion on the Sony Vita Samsung OLED panel, the low number of 320 lines is definitely misleading. smile.gif I don't believe the Vita does BFI, and it certainly looks much more fluid than any LCD screen.
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post #6505 of 11414 Old 08-07-2013, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by dsinger View Post

Being able to input 50 or 60 hz to a 4k display matters to those of us who want options as to where the scaling of source material takes place. I won't buy a 4k display until I can scale 1080i or p with an external video processor or AVR etc. Reports on the scaling ability of Seiki (sp?) and my observations of Sony 4k sets leave me depressed. Since 1080 and 720p will be the major source material for a long time being able to have a choice for scaling is very important.
I'm not sure why you think that requires 60Hz.
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post #6506 of 11414 Old 08-07-2013, 09:42 AM
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I'm not sure why you think that requires 60Hz.
eg. sport broadcast at 720p60 or TV shows at 1080i30 that have 60Hz motion not 24 or 30. If the TV can't accept 4K@60Hz it means the external video processor or digital video recorder or other external box can't do all the scaling/processing - since it would reduce 60Hz motion to 30.
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post #6507 of 11414 Old 08-07-2013, 11:23 AM
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eg. sport broadcast at 720p60 or TV shows at 1080i30 that have 60Hz motion not 24 or 30. If the TV can't accept 4K@60Hz it means the external video processor or digital video recorder or other external box can't do all the scaling/processing - since it would reduce 60Hz motion to 30.
This is rare though - most video content is 30fps or less, and few people use external scalers at all these days. There's very little need for them now, and even the high end stuff like Lumagen boxes cut corners when scaling.
And it's trivial to scale up 720p or 1080i/p to 4K. You just double or triple the size of the pixels, no complex interpolation required.
And if you do want to use interpolation, most displays' HD scaling capabilities are sufficient. It's not like SD where you are going from a very low source resolution without much detail.
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post #6508 of 11414 Old 08-07-2013, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs View Post

eg. sport broadcast at 720p60 or TV shows at 1080i30
Actually; the correct term in these forums tend to be 1080i60 (preferred worldwide notation), not 1080i/30 (European notation). It's actually 60 images per second, displayed as the full screenful of odd scanlines, followed 1/60sec later by the full screenful of even scanlines. So there is the temporal resolution of two fields per interlaced refresh. The correct terminology is to use the full number, not the half number, because that actually denotes the temporal resolution of the video. Remember, it's possible to encode 30fps or 60fps within 1080i60, and the 60fps-via-1080i60 looks twice as smooth as 30fps-via-1080i60. Much of the stuff you see in news shows, sports, olympics, sitcoms, soap operas, are often broadcast at 1080i60.

Here's a hidden undocumented TestUFO simulated interlace test of 30fps vs 60fps via 1080i:
www.testufo.com/#test=interlace

Compare to the non-interlaced version:
www.testufo.com/#test=framerates

View these links in Chrome browser or another VSYNC-supported browser.
You can clearly see both of them have the same temporal resolution, despite the interlacing.
The interlace emulation works best on strobed displays such as plasma, LightBoost or computer CRT's, but a close approximate effect is still achieved on modern LCD's.

To your credit, Wikipedia for 1080i does say:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia/1080i 
The frame rate can be implied by the context, while the field rate is generally specified after the letter i, such as "1080i60". In this case 1080i60 refers to 60 fields per second. The European Broadcasting Union (EBU) prefers to use the resolution and frame rate (not field rate) separated by a slash, as in 1080i/30 and 1080i/25, likewise 480i/30 and 576i/25.[2] Resolutions of 1080i60 or 1080i50 often refers to 1080i/30 or 1080i/25 in EBU notation.

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post #6509 of 11414 Old 08-07-2013, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

This is rare though - most video content is 30fps or less, and few people use external scalers at all these days. There's very little need for them now, and even the high end stuff like Lumagen boxes cut corners when scaling.

In what way did the Lumagen "cut corners" in their scaling?

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post #6510 of 11414 Old 08-07-2013, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark Rejhon View Post

Actually; the correct term in these forums tend to be 1080i60 (preferred worldwide notation), not 1080i/30 (European notation).
Which international standards bodies prefer the term 1080i60? Note I prefer 1080i60 or 1080i50 as it shows the number of images per second, but was told it was incorrect.
I noticed on broadcastengineering.com they use both 1080i30 (28 results) and 1080i60 (66 results).

Though it will be less of an issue in future when we have high fps progressive frame rates smile.gif.
Quote:
It's actually 60 images per second, displayed as the full screenful of odd scanlines, followed 1/60sec later by the full screenful of even scanlines. So there is the temporal resolution of two fields per interlaced refresh. The correct terminology is to use the full number, not the half number, because that actually denotes the temporal resolution of the video. Remember, it's possible to encode 30fps or 60fps within 1080i60, and the 60fps-via-1080i60 looks twice as smooth as 30fps-via-1080i60. Much of the stuff you see in news shows, sports, olympics, sitcoms, soap operas, are often broadcast at 1080i60.
I know all that that's why I said there'd be a problem if you were tried to upconvert 60Hz content such as 1080i to 4K and send over a 4K connection that only supports 30Hz.smile.gif
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Much of the stuff you see in news shows, sports, olympics, sitcoms, soap operas, are often broadcast at 1080i60.
Except in the UK smile.gif
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