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OLED Technology and Flat Panels General > OLED TVs: Technology Advancements Thread
Isochroma's Avatar Isochroma 02:19 PM 09-08-2008
Samsung: Blu-ray has 5 Years Left, OLED HD on the Way
7 September 2008




Andy Griffiths, director of consumer electronics at Samsung forsees a short future for Blu-ray

Blu-ray has 5 years left before it is replaced by a new technology or format according to Samsung. Andy Griffiths, director of consumer electronics at Samsung UK told gadget news site Pocket-lint "I think it [Blu-ray] has 5 years left, I certainly wouldn't give it 10".

Griffiths believes that 2008 will be the Blu-ray format's prime year. "It's going to be huge", he told Pocket-lint. "We are heavily back-ordered at the moment." With the move to offer cheaper players and one clear choice following the Blu-ray/HD DVD battle, Griffiths says the format will be a short term winner.

In the article, Griffiths also mentions that Samsung is putting its faith in its OLED HD technology. The new technology is almost ready, but is being held back by high manufacturing costs. "We will launch the OLED technology when it's at a price that will be appealing to the consumer, unfortunately that's not yet."

Griffiths, predicts by 2010 OLED technology will become mainstream and that it will replace LCD. "It's gonna be big, but at the moment it's a great story, not commercial, product," said Griffiths

Samsung previewed two OLED screen televisions at IFA in Berlin earlier in the month, introducing larger models than Sony. Coming in at 14-inch and 31-inch models, the screens are incredibly thin, and produce vivid contrasts and colors. Sony settled for second place with 9-inch and 27-inch models.

Griffiths believes a completely HD future is around the corner, "In 2012 we will be in a true HD world. Everything from your television to your camcorder will be offering you pictures in high-definition, and we plan to offer you that HD world from all angles." From Griffiths’ perspective, this future may not include Blu-ray.

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Samsung: "Blu-ray has 5 years left"
3 September 2008
Samsung has said that it sees the Blu-ray format only lasting a further 5 years before it is replaced by another format or technology.

"I think it [Blu-ray] has 5 years left, I certainly wouldn't give it 10", Andy Griffiths, director of consumer electronics at Samsung UK told Pocket-lint in an interview.

Hoping to capitalise before it's too late, Griffiths believes that 2008 is the format's year.

"It's going to be huge", he told Pocket-lint. "We are heavily back-ordered at the moment."

Citing online rental sites like LoveFilm's adoption of Blu-ray titles, the move to offer cheaper players and a now clear path to adoption following the Blu-ray HD DVD battle, Griffith says the format will be a winner, although not for long.

Instead Samsung is putting its faith in its OLED technology. The new technology, which is "ready to rock", is being held back at the moment due to high manufacturing costs.

"We will launch the OLED technology when it's at a price that will be appealing to the consumer, unfortunately that's not yet."

Griffiths, citing 2010 as a possible date for your calendar, told us he believes that when the technology becomes mainstream it will replace LCD.

"It's gonna be big, but at the moment it's a great story, not commercial, product."

Samsung previewed two OLED screen televisions at IFA in Berlin earlier in the month, out-manoeuvring Sony to be the largest models on show at the show.

Coming in 14- and 31-inch models, the screens that are incredibly thin, produce vivid contrasts and colours.

Sony settled for second place with a 9- and 27-inch models, but it wasn't the only area that Samsung claimed a "world's first" over their Far East rivals.

The company has recently announced it's partnered with Yahoo to offer widgets on its internet connected televisions as it tries to turn the television into an information hub of the home rather than the PC.

"The content has to be relevant, but once it is it will make the TV more than a TV", said Griffiths.

So where next? Griffiths is clearly thinking about the future citing more focus on rolling out LED backlighting in the range as well as improving the quality of the offering.

But it seems the Olympics is on the man and the company's minds.

"In 2012 we will be in a true HD world. Everything from your television to your camcorder will be offering you pictures in high-definition, and we plan to offer you that HD world from all angles."

With 4 years to go, the prospect sounds exciting, but by then Blu-ray will be, if Samsung are to be believed, on its last legs.

avnstf's Avatar avnstf 03:22 PM 09-08-2008
given what's available TODAY (2008) in terms of OLED screens, it's hard to take seriously a statement that it will be mainstream in 2010, 2 years from now...or maybe he means at 5 times the cost of LCD!
Isochroma's Avatar Isochroma 04:44 PM 09-08-2008
OLED Videos From IFA 2008
8 September 2008

agustus's Avatar agustus 05:03 PM 09-08-2008
Hey Isochroma, you trashed me for mentioning this video (second one from the bottom). You said, "do some investigation of the actual technology before you put up some media link like that." So if you thought it was nonsense, why post it up?
moreHD's Avatar moreHD 07:47 AM 09-12-2008
Hi all,

How likely is it for Toshiba to start OLED tv's production? I am asking this b/c to me they seem a perfect candidate. They shouldn't like Sony because of (Blu-ray) so they could hurt sony rgb led lcd tvs. And Toshiba itself; they don't make plasmas, don't make LED LCD's, so what are they waiting for?
Richard Paul's Avatar Richard Paul 01:22 PM 09-12-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by moreHD View Post

How likely is it for Toshiba to start OLED tv's production? I am asking this b/c to me they seem a perfect candidate. They shouldn't like Sony because of (Blu-ray) so they could hurt sony rgb led lcd tvs. And Toshiba itself; they don't make plasmas, don't make LED LCD's, so what are they waiting for?

I heard that Toshiba shelved their plans for selling OLED TVs and it looks like the two main CE companies that have production plans for OLED TVs are Samsung and Sony.
H_Prestige's Avatar H_Prestige 08:25 PM 09-14-2008
How is the response time on OLED? Is it comparable to CRT or is it like LCD?
Reizah's Avatar Reizah 09:22 PM 09-14-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by H_Prestige View Post

How is the response time on OLED? Is it comparable to CRT or is it like LCD?

its under 1ms which is very fast, no blur whatsoever
madshi's Avatar madshi 02:02 AM 09-15-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reizah View Post

its under 1ms which is very fast, no blur whatsoever

No blur due to response time. But the sample-and-hold-effect could still apply, depending on how the picture is "drawn"...
H_Prestige's Avatar H_Prestige 11:29 AM 09-15-2008
I was always under the impression that OLED worked a lot like plasma, but better. I had no idea the motion resolution was on par with LCD. In that case I would say plasma is the much better tech.
madshi's Avatar madshi 12:03 PM 09-15-2008
Who said that OLED motion resolution was on par with LCD?
Daviii's Avatar Daviii 03:05 AM 09-16-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by H_Prestige View Post

I was always under the impression that OLED worked a lot like plasma, but better. I had no idea the motion resolution was on par with LCD. In that case I would say plasma is the much better tech.

That's not true. Current OLED Tv's are like a plasma on steroids working like an LCD because the emitters are not bright enough.

That doesn't mean the motion resolution is on par with LCD's, in fact the motion resolution of the XEL-1 TV, the first an only OLED consumer model ever is 960 lines. With a 960 lines panel, I must say.

Motion resolution and emmiter response time are near perfect on OLED tv's, but as there's no pulse on the displayed picture, but sample and hold, that is, as the current tv's work like LCDs and not like plasmas, your brain may get
"cheated" and think about blur.

Current OLEDs = Blur equivalent to <1ms response time LCDs TVs + PQ better and sharper than plasma + Blacks better than plasma + No yellow trails + No black smearing + No mura + No backlight bleeding + No uneven lightning + Less power consumption than LCDs and orders of magnitude less than plasmas.

Now imagine future oleds. Several (many) years ago, the first LCDs looked like crap. The first oleds look amazing. Do the math.
rgb32's Avatar rgb32 08:40 AM 09-16-2008
+1 to Daviii's post.

For all of the nay sayers (e.g. Kuro Fans), locate a SonyStyle store and check out the XEL-1! It's worth the trip!

Larger displays will be available within the next 6 months.... so there'll be a product to replace your CRT or LCD computer monitor (27" XEL-2).

Also, the GP2X Wiz will be available in November, making it the first hand-held video game system to incorporate an OLED screen (@ $179 for the system package)! Fun stuff!

OLED is here to stay... even if there are companies that cannot compete right now...
Jim Hef's Avatar Jim Hef 09:16 AM 09-16-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by rgb32 View Post

...Larger displays will be available within the next 6 months....

Granted, this is an exciting technology, but for a usefully sized TV, we can only dream about it. And, what will that 27" monitor cost when it's introduced. Right now, some very good LCD monitors exist at around $5-600 in that size, with decent contrast, brightness and response time.
xrox's Avatar xrox 09:23 AM 09-16-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daviii View Post

Current OLEDs = Blur equivalent to <1ms response time LCDs TVs + PQ better and sharper than plasma + Blacks better than plasma + No yellow trails + No black smearing + No mura + No backlight bleeding + No uneven lightning + Less power consumption than LCDs and orders of magnitude less than plasmas.

I admire your enthusiasm but you shouldn't have said "current" If so you'll have to remove power consumption because large OLEDs (TV size) are power hogs. Also, mura on large OLEDs is also an issue. And since there are no Plasmas that are 11" it is tough to compare PQ/Sharpness isn't it


Quote:
Originally Posted by Daviii View Post

Now imagine future oleds. Several (many) years ago, the first LCDs looked like crap. The first oleds look amazing. Do the math.

Yes the future of OLEDs holds a lot of promise. Problem is that promise was made 20 years ago and has yet to be realized. And the first OLEDs better look amazing or it would be a lost cause.

By the time large area OLEDs (>35") are on the market, super thin and light LD-LCD and high lumen ECC plasmas will also be there. I think they will all be able to compete in terms of performance. Sounds exciting to me.

I'm getting the 141FD right now and hope to be able to upgrade in about 5 years
H_Prestige's Avatar H_Prestige 09:35 AM 09-16-2008
So future OLEDs will have perfect motion resolution and not use sample and hold like LCD? Why are they using it right now? Is it because they haven't sorted out the kinks yet? I saw the OLED at sonystyle and it was impressive, but I did see a lot of blur. I just hope it's better than plasma in EVERY way, not just better in some ways and then introduce LCD flaws in others. The black levels were very good, although the screen itself seemed to have some green coating on it, so while the blacks were definitely much darker than anything I've seen they also had a slight green tint to them. But I don't think black levels will be the selling point for OLED since Pioneer will have their ultimate black panels next year and the rest of the 5 lumen plasmas from Panasonic will be so black it won't even matter. Unless of course OLED has a very good ansi contrast.
xrox's Avatar xrox 09:40 AM 09-16-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by H_Prestige View Post

So future OLEDs will have perfect motion resolution and not use sample and hold like LCD? Why are they using it right now? Is it because they haven't sorted out the kinks yet? I saw the OLED at sonystyle and it was impressive, but I did see a lot of blur. I just hope it's better than plasma in EVERY way, not just better in some ways and then introduce LCD flaws in others. The black levels were very good, although the screen itself seemed to have some green coating on it, so while the blacks were definitely much darker than anything I've seen they also had a slight green tint to them. But I don't think black levels will be the selling point for OLED since Pioneer will have their ultimate black panels next year and the rest of the 5 lumen plasmas from Panasonic will be so black it won't even matter. Unless of course OLED has a very good ansi contrast.

They use sample and hold to increase lifetime (by using less current) but still maintain brightness. Right now, even with sample and hold, the lifetime is ~ 1/3 to 1/5 of current plasmas and LCDs. Also, burn-in is much easier than Plasma.

Another issue that needs resolving is uneven color aging.
Isochroma's Avatar Isochroma 09:40 AM 09-16-2008
OLED has INFINITE contrast, however you want to measure it. Besides SED, it is the ONLY display type that can provide a true 'window' onto reality. The OFF pixels are completely OFF, unlike plasma which must maintain gas ionization.

Also, OLED does not require Pulse Width Modulation (PWM) in order to provide variable luminance at the emitter level, also unlike plasma, which will forever be plagued by dithering, and flicker. Dither and flicker are most visible when the Field of View (FOV) is larger (30 degrees plus) which is required for the HDTV Immersion Effect, as found by pioneering Japanese researchers. Anyone would get a headache sitting close enough to a PDP to get that field of view, just due to flicker, never mind dithering which produces especially ugly 'noise' artifacts in the low-luminance areas of the picture, just the kind that show lots in the movies PDP proponents love to use against LCD.

Plasma's Lame Ass is its Gas. The gas needs high voltage to ionize (expensive hot circuits), and has to be kept ionized to maintain conductivity (imperfect blacks). Worse, its brightness is too difficult to control except by flashing it on and off [PWM] (dither 'noise'). Finally, by using gas as an intermediary energy interconverter to change electric charge into UV, a terrible loss of efficiency is obtained. The gas will continue to be a perpetual hobble until this nasty system is put out of its misery by the easily superior OLED, which directly converts charge into light, bypassing all the gassy stupidities of the PDP system.

Both LCD and PDP are deeply flawed display systems and both will be on the way out shortly. The next generation will look back with incredulity at the cost and horrible quality of previous displays, never mind their weight and power consumption, both of which are currently atrocious.
xrox's Avatar xrox 09:48 AM 09-16-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Isochroma View Post

OLED has INFINITE contrast, however you want to measure it. Besides SED, it is the ONLY display type that can provide a true 'window' onto reality.

Completely off plasma pixels are coming soon. I don't think LD-LCD will ever reach infinite (except dynamic which they do now). As it stands, OLED has the advantage. But like I said, by the time you can buy a large one, it will have to compete in almost every department.

You are correct that I don't see Plasma moving away from dithering.
Isochroma's Avatar Isochroma 09:55 AM 09-16-2008
Samsung to unveil its 14.1- and 31-inch OLED TVs
30 August 2008




BERLIN, Germany (AVING Special Report on 'IFA 2008') -- Samsung Electronics is offering visitors to this year's IFA in Berlin a glimpse at where the TV is headed. The lineup at the Samsung booth included two (14.1- and 31-inch) OLED TVs.

The OLED is seen as a powerful contender for the future display market mainstream, given its very high resolution, svelte profile and extremely lightweight. Electronics manufacturers have already begun exhibiting these next-generation displays at major trade shows. However, Samsung is going a step further at IFA 2008, presenting the OLED as a finished TV product that features an elegant, optimized design. Samsung's OLED TVs represent greater technology innovation and set a new standard for TV sophistication.

These chic, ultra-slim OLED TVs employ OLED panels developed by Samsung SDI (the affiliate dedicated to display production). The finished products weigh forty percent less than other LCD TVs of the same size while boasting a contrast ratio of 1 million to one, color gamut of 107% and brightness of 550 cd/m2. Samsung will begin commercial production of mid-/large- sized OLED TVs around 2010.
xrox's Avatar xrox 10:06 AM 09-16-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Isochroma View Post

Plasma's Lame Ass is its Gas. The gas needs high voltage to ionize (expensive hot circuits), and has to be kept ionized to maintain conductivity (imperfect blacks). Worse, its brightness is too difficult to control except by flashing it on and off [PWM] (dither 'noise'). Finally, by using gas as an intermediary energy interconverter to change electric charge into UV, a terrible loss of efficiency is obtained. The gas will continue to be a perpetual hobble until this nasty system is put out of its misery by the easily superior OLED, which directly converts charge into light, bypassing all the gassy stupidities of the PDP system.

Both LCD and PDP are deeply flawed display systems and both will be on the way out shortly. The next generation will look back with incredulity at the cost and horrible quality of previous displays, never mind their weight and power consumption, both of which are currently atrocious.

High lumen plasma will "self-prime" the pixels allowing for them to be completely "off" and thus have infinite contrast just like OLED. Also, high lumen plasma will require much lower voltages to discharge and thus require less robust electronics.

On the flip side, OLEDs pixel extraction efficiency is extremely low at the moment which is the main contributer to the massive power consumption of large area OLEDs. This and lifetime issues are what is keeping them off the market. If you would like I could post numbers on OLEDs true efficiency.
Isochroma's Avatar Isochroma 10:12 AM 09-16-2008
xrox: Completely off PDP pixels are NEVER coming. Time to re-check your physics. There is not a word anywhere that I have found about such a beast, except from you. There is no evidence either in research or product that such a thing has or will ever happen, because it is totally against the dynamics of gas ionization.

Of course even if such fairy tales do come true, there's a shitload of other junk hobbling this soon-to-be-retired technology.
xrox's Avatar xrox 10:14 AM 09-16-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Isochroma View Post

xrox: Completely off PDP pixels are NEVER coming. Time to re-check your physics. There is not a word anywhere that I have found about such a beast, except from you. There is no evidence either in research or product that such a thing has or will ever happen, because it is totally against the dynamics of gas ionization.

Of course even if such fairy tales do come true, there's a shitload of other junk hobbling this soon-to-be-retired technology.

Would you like if I posted info on this or should I do it through PM as to not contaminate the OLED thread with PDP stuff.

Cheers
Isochroma's Avatar Isochroma 10:16 AM 09-16-2008
There's really no point in discussing other display technologies except as they relate to OLED in this thread. I leave it up to you to decide if the material is relevant to OLED characteristics.

I am firmly convinced that it is time for the entire industry and its watchers to quit pouring energy into dead avenues and instead, redirect it into the creation of NEW life.

Samsung, Sony and others are busy doing that. They have Deep Vision into the future and can see beyond tomorrow's profit/loss. A tomorrow that is direct-activation and chromatically pure. A future that is totally flat and even flexible.

If you look at the first page of this thread, I reported several groundbreaking stories about the greatest visionaries, who already had 40-inch printed OLED displays in 2004 (Epson), and Samsung in May 2005 (amorphous silicon).

These guys are my pride and joy, and one of them (Samsung) has already moved far ahead to win the present and future race to market with mainstream-size OLED TVs.

Remember, the mainstream size is 32" in the HDTV market space. That size by far dominates all others in sales, and has even increased its dominance in the last few months.

All this means that when 27" and 31/32" OLED TVs are released, they will have already reached the market's pinnacle. Further expansion will merely be the picking of the topmost fruits, which of their own accord will in time fall to the ground, luscious and ripely delicious.
Jim Hef's Avatar Jim Hef 10:43 AM 09-16-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Isochroma View Post

...Remember, the mainstream size is 32" in the HDTV market space. That size by far dominates all others in sales, and has even increased its dominance in the last few months....

I think this could be true due to the decreasing cost of this sized panel, and folks wanting to jump into high def viewing are now finding them more affordable. The price of the upcoming OLED in that size will decide if they are successful or not within a reasonable timeframe after they are introduced. How many folks are jumping on the tiny Sony???
madshi's Avatar madshi 10:44 AM 09-16-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Isochroma View Post

There's really no point in discussing other display technologies except as they relate to OLED in this thread.

I fully agree with that. But you should really leave your plasma bashing out of this thread then, too. Thanks.
gus738's Avatar gus738 12:44 PM 09-16-2008
Wow I never thought I would post here this soon, rgb32 kuro fans comment well kuro is here oled is not and even if it was the oled 11" (xel 1) is $2,500 I can get a 8g elite or a 9g non elite for that price in 50" and is still more better in motion and other areas of PQ.

while I agree oled does seem to have a future its NOT READY yet for consumers ~ and what i mean by this is that its not in large volumes and not in big size and not out at all.

for the time being it will seem that oled still has motion issues close to lcd due to the sample and hold but motion resolution seems to be the highest in flat screens (960 lines I belive)

Oled is seem to be the next big thing, lets see if I post in regards to this technology in the future

Quote:
Originally Posted by rgb32 View Post

+1 to Daviii's post.

For all of the nay sayers (e.g. Kuro Fans), locate a SonyStyle store and check out the XEL-1! It's worth the trip!

Larger displays will be available within the next 6 months.... so there'll be a product to replace your CRT or LCD computer monitor (27" XEL-2).

Also, the GP2X Wiz will be available in November, making it the first hand-held video game system to incorporate an OLED screen (@ $179 for the system package)! Fun stuff!

OLED is here to stay... even if there are companies that cannot compete right now...


navychop's Avatar navychop 08:19 PM 09-16-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by xrox View Post

Completely off plasma pixels are coming soon...
.....High lumen plasma will "self-prime" the pixels allowing for them to be completely "off" and thus have infinite contrast just like OLED......

Please post here (or send me a PM) a link about how this is possible. I recall reading part of an article explaining in technical terms why PDPs would always require a minimum amount of gas ionization and thus never reach complete blacks/max contrast. Can't say I understood it. But the idea of a rise time from zero to activate the plasma being longer than the rise from some low level seems easy to understand.

Of course, 4 or 5 years ago, who would have thought the blacks of the Kuro series would be achieved, never mind the cost. Or even the blacks of the Sammy A650 series, etc, for LCD. So we may still have a bit to learn.

However, I suspect PDPs will disappear a bit quicker than LCDs, (Kuro may have saved them from an early oblivion) and OLEDs, MEMs or some other technology will dispense with LCD and any other players on the field.

One day, 10-20 years from now, we'll see displays as cheap as CRTs were when they died out.
TNG's Avatar TNG 09:53 PM 09-16-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by gus738 View Post

Wow I never thought I would post here this soon, rgb32 kuro fans comment well kuro is here oled is not and even if it was the oled 11" (xel 1) is $2,500 I can get a 8g elite or a 9g non elite for that price in 50" and is still more better in motion and other areas of PQ.

Did you buy your first plasma yesterday?

Have you ever seen the Sony OLED set? Probably not. You probably should beleive Iso when he says that LCD and plasma are gone if this gets to larger screens and decent prices.

With plasma and LCD you can debate the merits of blacks, detail, blur, tell you are blue in the face, but really despite what you think they really aren't all that different.

After seeing an a movie on a OLED, it is much different than both of the leading FPD's. You can see it on just the 11" screen that it is MUCH visibly better.
Daviii's Avatar Daviii 02:05 AM 09-17-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by xrox View Post

I admire your enthusiasm but you shouldn't have said "current" If so you'll have to remove power consumption because large OLEDs (TV size) are power hogs. Also, mura on large OLEDs is also an issue. And since there are no Plasmas that are 11" it is tough to compare PQ/Sharpness isn't it

Yes. You're right. Some of my points were not so accurate. I'm sorry.


Quote:
Originally Posted by xrox View Post

Yes the future of OLEDs holds a lot of promise. Problem is that promise was made 20 years ago and has yet to be realized. And the first OLEDs better look amazing or it would be a lost cause.

By the time large area OLEDs (>35") are on the market, super thin and light LD-LCD and high lumen ECC plasmas will also be there. I think they will all be able to compete in terms of performance. Sounds exciting to me.

I'm getting the 141FD right now and hope to be able to upgrade in about 5 years

My point is that the first LCDs and plasmas were TVs, say it, with "a lot of improvement margin"(*), while the first OLEDs, besides the size, are TVs that equal or surpass most of the mature panels on the market.

Plasmas and LCD had needed many years to achieve a high enough maturity level, and for decades, they have been unable to show a PQ similar to the existing old technologies, while OLED is amazing on its very first and "alpha" appearance.

That's how I define "promising". OLED looks much more promising for me than LCDs and plasmas, that after tenths of generations of panels still have serious issues nobody knows how to adress. OLED panels are just newborn and already know how to make a rocket. Let them go to school and you'll see...

(*) = Crap
Tags: Led Hdtv , Lcd Hdtv , Plasma Hdtv , Oled Tv , Lg , Samsung
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