OLED TVs: Technology Advancements Thread - Page 220 - AVS Forum
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post #6571 of 11264 Old 08-12-2013, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by ALMA View Post

It makes sense as computer monitor for games or photoshop. But it was LG itself who speculated about a smaller version for Europe. So it makes much more sense than a new design after the EA9800 and it seems both companys currently aren´t interested in ordinary flat OLED-TV´s. At the moment they want the curved design as show effect to separate OLED from LCD and Plasma.
Not if it's still 1080p and as susceptible to burn-in as the previous model. I do think the design is a lot better on this one, but I still think the curved screen is a bad idea.
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post #6572 of 11264 Old 08-12-2013, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by slacker711 View Post

I think this is the same conversation that we have had for a while. We arent getting to 90% yields and sub-$3000 pricing overnight. This price cut seems like a fairly significant step in that process. It certainly shows a seriousness about actually selling OLED televisions that Samsung hadnt shown previously.

We can agree to disagree. I think it shows they are dilettantes as opposed to being completely indifferent.
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Isn't this the cart before the horse though?  The way to get to lower pricing, and hence the broader market, is to be able to manage higher volume.
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Absolutely.  However, manufacturing facilities don't form overnight for new products.  There's always a bit of forecasting and gambling going on.  I'm not talking about a push scenario where manufacturer X creates a widget in order to make demand for it.  It's a gambling on what the current interest is (I'm guessing pretty big), and what that'll do for demand later.

I think you understand the former issue from your latter post. You can't possibly ramp production without the big fab, You can't possibly drive meaningful volumes with the small fab. It's also not even slightly clear that if they keep insisting on using SMS that they will develop 8G tech of any utility from their 6G fab. The substrate sizes are just so different.

Furthermore, I'm not persuaded that there is any meaningful market for OLED TVs at 1/4 the resolution of LCDs....
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There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #6573 of 11264 Old 08-12-2013, 12:30 PM
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post #6574 of 11264 Old 08-12-2013, 01:12 PM
 
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Wowsung. I have to wonder about this demand they reference, however. It must be related to their phones. Let's hear it for OLED tablets (baby steps here)!
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post #6575 of 11264 Old 08-12-2013, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

Wowsung. I have to wonder about this demand they reference, however. It must be related to their phones. Let's hear it for OLED tablets (baby steps here)!

 

Or phablets.  My Galaxy Note II display is amazing!  Side note: This is a very well put together phone/tablet, and they didn't do the Motorola trick of re-writing and breaking everything Google wrote.  They customized many things of course, but they all seem to *work*.


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post #6576 of 11264 Old 08-12-2013, 02:12 PM
 
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phablets, hah, first time I've seen that hybrid descriptor. redface.gif The S3 in my possession is nearly a phablet given its large screen size of 4.8 inches, but what are the other determining factors?
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post #6577 of 11264 Old 08-12-2013, 02:22 PM
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Beats me. I jokingly used the term in the past anf discovered that it was showing up here and there. Figure, if it's a moose and still connects to a cell network, it's a phablet. Thing actually has a pen, but I don't use it.

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post #6578 of 11264 Old 08-12-2013, 05:35 PM
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I view a phablet as with a large enough screen to be used as a tablet, but with phone functions. NOT to hold up to your ear, but to connect via Bluetooth. Keep it in a large jacket pocket or "holster." Or purse.

OLED might be nice there, but not much of a step to TV size.

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post #6579 of 11264 Old 08-12-2013, 10:34 PM
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Some industry analysts use "phablet" for any phone that is 4.5" diagonal or bigger. Of course, today that is close to 100% of premium Android phones. Others use it for 5" and up phone devices.

It's an ugly word, but it conveys the idea of "it's a phone but almost big enough to be a small tablet."

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #6580 of 11264 Old 08-12-2013, 11:34 PM
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Today is the OLED-TV event at Value Electronics:

http://news.cnet.com/8301-11386_3-57598099-76/samsung-tv-event-join-us-at-8-45-a.m-pt-tuesday-live-blog/
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post #6581 of 11264 Old 08-13-2013, 07:08 AM
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Originally Posted by ALMA View Post

Today is the OLED-TV event at Value Electronics:

http://news.cnet.com/8301-11386_3-57598099-76/samsung-tv-event-join-us-at-8-45-a.m-pt-tuesday-live-blog/

 

Clicking through lands me on this article from August 1 about LG.  Hope this wasn't posted already.

 

http://news.cnet.com/8301-11386_3-57596514-76/dont-hold-your-breath-for-a-flat-panel-lg-oled-tv-in-the-u.s./

 

From the article:
Don't hold your breath for a flat-panel LG OLED TV in the U.S.

The Korean electronics giant will only be releasing the curved version of its OLED TV in the U.S., at least for the foreseeable future, the company tells CNET.

Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent. Unless, of course, it's to keep someone from creating a phone video in portrait mode, in which case it's a pretty good first step. Portrait mooks: KNOCK IT OFF.
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post #6582 of 11264 Old 08-13-2013, 09:05 AM
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"The Samsung KN55S9C OLED TV is officially coming to America, and with a big price cut: $8,999" Cnet quote.
Samsung press conference. cool.gif

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post #6583 of 11264 Old 08-13-2013, 09:05 AM
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post #6584 of 11264 Old 08-13-2013, 09:07 AM
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They may actually sell some at that price. Not to me though.
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post #6585 of 11264 Old 08-13-2013, 09:13 AM
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They may actually sell some at that price. Not to me though.

that is a significant price adjustment:

Samsung had an exclusive event last night at Cipriani's in NYC, in part to show off this new display (that is my assumption: I was unable to attend but the invite had the curved OLED on it): I hope this means they are really getting serious about OLED

...and I might be interested at that price....
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post #6586 of 11264 Old 08-13-2013, 09:24 AM
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They claim that better than expected yields enable them to see at this price point. we shall see. I am seeing one tomorrow. Frankly, I would never buy a first generation product like this. Also, a 55 inch screen for 9k? For that, I would want at least 70 inches, one that is flat and can be mounted on a wall.
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post #6587 of 11264 Old 08-13-2013, 09:31 AM
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^^^

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post #6588 of 11264 Old 08-13-2013, 09:35 AM
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What's interesting to me is that in early 2012 when LG and Samsung announced their 55" OLEDs for later that year, speculation in the industry would be that it would cost around $8K-$10K. So this price gets us back to what many had expected a long time ago instead of the shocking $15K.
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post #6589 of 11264 Old 08-13-2013, 09:39 AM
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Will do!
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post #6590 of 11264 Old 08-13-2013, 09:40 AM
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I think it has more to do with undercutting LG than anything else.
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post #6591 of 11264 Old 08-13-2013, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by JWhip View Post

I think it has more to do with undercutting LG than anything else.

 

We don't know how large the margins are.  Maybe it's still able to turn a profit for them.  Perhaps it's a bit of predatory pricing.

 

By the way, have all the other manufacturers stayed quiet about the notion of curved TVs?  Have any stated that they are not going to pursue it?


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post #6592 of 11264 Old 08-13-2013, 09:57 AM
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Just reading this preliminary review, a bit of good news about the burn in of the new Samsung. They also said the black levels were a bit better than the best plasmas, but no objective info provided.

http://consumerreports.org/cro/news/2013/08/samsung-oled-tv-review/index.htm
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post #6593 of 11264 Old 08-13-2013, 11:11 AM
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This was from back in June.
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post

The history of TV price declines, for what it's worth, is that 30% compounded reductions are about thebest you will ever see.

Using that and starting with $13,000.....

2014: $9100
2015: $6370
2016: $4450
2017: $3121

(Using $10,000 as a baseline, you get $7000, $4900, $3430, $2400 incidentally. Of course, 4 years of compounded 30% reductions is a lot of "ifs" turning into reality.)

That, of course, is nowhere near price parity as in 2013, a flagship 55-inch LCD launches at $2500 and falls lower later in the model year. It's hard to imagine a flagship LCD will be anymore than that in 2017, but it's easy to imagine it will be <$2000.

Fortunately, I was using cost, not price, so I wouldn't be surprised to see OLED reach price parity sometime around 2017. Of course, I wouldn't be floored by the opposite either. The cost reductions are driven by the learning curve and volumes. At this point, volumes are so infinitesimal -- and will remain so through all of next year -- we realistically won't see much in the way of cost reductions until 2015, despite the graph you see above.

So given that the $9000 was achieved in 2013 rather than 2014, does that move the graph to:
2013: $9100
2014: $6370
2015: $4450
2016: $3121
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post #6594 of 11264 Old 08-13-2013, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by remush View Post

Just reading this preliminary review, a bit of good news about the burn in of the new Samsung. They also said the black levels were a bit better than the best plasmas, but no objective info provided.

http://consumerreports.org/cro/news/2013/08/samsung-oled-tv-review/index.htm

This sounds encouraging vs. the poor results of the LG:

"Theoretically, OLEDs have very fast response times, faster than LED LCDs and even plasmas. This should mean that OLEDs, like plasma sets, can handle motion without noticeable blurring. But in our tests with the TV's Automotion feature turned off, motion blur was surprisingly LCD-like: only fair, and greater than what we typically see with plasma TVs. With the Automotion feature activated, the set's motion-blur reduction improved to the level of excellent, with no noticeable over-smoothing (the "soap opera" effect) we see in some LCD TVs that makes film look like video."
.....
.....
In a preliminary test, we displayed our special "burn-in" test pattern, which uses a dark, flat, gray field of video, on the screen and checked every 10 minutes for image sticking.

We did see subtle image retention on some of the plasmas in the room in as little as 10 minutes, but it took a full hour before the OLED showed any effects of the test pattern, and even then it was very subtle. As a result, we're cautiously optimistic about OLED burn-in. We'll just have to wait to see if OLED TVs can maintain their image quality over the long term."
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post #6595 of 11264 Old 08-13-2013, 11:51 AM
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This sounds encouraging vs. the poor results of the LG:

"Theoretically, OLEDs have very fast response times, faster than LED LCDs and even plasmas. This should mean that OLEDs, like plasma sets, can handle motion without noticeable blurring. But in our tests with the TV's Automotion feature turned off, motion blur was surprisingly LCD-like: only fair, and greater than what we typically see with plasma TVs. With the Automotion feature activated, the set's motion-blur reduction improved to the level of excellent, with no noticeable over-smoothing (the "soap opera" effect) we see in some LCD TVs that makes film look like video."
Sounds like motion handling is the same as LG (Sample & Hold display) except Samsung's processing is better. (no surprise there)

It's a common misconception that interpolation always adds the "soap opera effect". Sony's MotionFlow has managed to avoid the "soap opera effect" for years, and others like Samsung offer settings to tune the interpolation to reduce or eliminate it. (not everyone dislikes that look, and not all content looks bad with it)
It's also a misconception that LCDs require interpolation, or that they have worse motion handling than Plasmas. The best LCDs use backlight scanning and have motion handling that is much better than Plasmas.
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We did see subtle image retention on some of the plasmas in the room in as little as 10 minutes, but it took a full hour before the OLED showed any effects of the test pattern, and even then it was very subtle. As a result, we're cautiously optimistic about OLED burn-in. We'll just have to wait to see if OLED TVs can maintain their image quality over the long term."
Seeing image retention after an hour is still cause for concern, in my opinion, when you consider that Plasmas and OLEDs will show image retention/burn for different reasons.


Samsung's set should be a lot better than LG's though, and it's encouraging that they have already been able to reduce the price to $9000.
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post #6596 of 11264 Old 08-13-2013, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

Sounds like motion handling is the same as LG (Sample & Hold display) except Samsung's processing is better. (no surprise there)


It's a common misconception that interpolation always adds the "soap opera effect". Sony's MotionFlow has managed to avoid the "soap opera effect" for years

Perhaps on the HX950 and similarly high end models, but my R550A (sony) has MotionFlow settings and exhibits soap opera effect.  As does the W802A.

 

Chronoptimist continues:

It's also a misconception that LCDs require interpolation, or that they have worse motion handling than Plasmas. The best LCDs use backlight scanning and have motion handling that is much better than Plasmas.

I suppose, but that also requires the very highest models to manage that one....and even then I'm not so convinced.  The above alluded to 2012 XBR-65HX950 was the first time I ever saw one that equaled the plasmas, and IMO it didn't exceed them.  The middle of the road panas have always been smooth as silk.

 

By the way, there's been an uptick in plasma motion processing attempted "debunking" recently and I'm not sure what's fueling it, because in every instance I've seen, in order to match plasma motion you have to put in place heroic demands on the hardware and your wallet.

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post #6597 of 11264 Old 08-13-2013, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Peterson View Post

This was from back in June.
So given that the $9000 was achieved in 2013 rather than 2014, does that move the graph to:
2013: $9100
2014: $6370
2015: $4450
2016: $3121

It's really, really hard to know.

Part of me believes that the push is now dictated by the competitive forces -- if they emerge. I think if you read the tea leaves from some of my recent posts, you'll see my references to 2016 as some sort of realistic year of interest. The reason is that the Sony/Panasonic entry into the market is a 2015 phenomenon in all likelihood. That creates a marketplace and possibly a push to bring these to the cusp of competitiveness with LCD. Note that $3000 is not actually competitive with LCD which already maxes out at around $2500 for 2K and is about to hit $3500 for 4K from major brands. But it is an important step.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #6598 of 11264 Old 08-13-2013, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

Perhaps on the HX950 and similarly high end models, but my R550A (sony) has MotionFlow settings and exhibits soap opera effect.  As does the W802A.
The "Clear" MotionFlow settings should not introduce any soap opera effect. (except in very rare circumstances) The Impulse mode only uses backlight scanning and does not use interpolation at all.
The Standard option does seem to introduce some soap opera effect, and (obviously) the "Smooth" option adds a lot of it.
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

The above alluded to 2012 XBR-65HX950 was the first time I ever saw one that equaled the plasmas, and IMO it didn't exceed them.
It needs to be in the "Clear Plus" or "Impulse" mode to better a Plasma. The good thing about LCD is that you can configure it for the level of interpolation or backlight scanning that you are comfortable with.
Lightboost LCD monitors best just about any display available now. (including those Sony models)
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

The middle of the road panas have always been smooth as silk.
If I recall correctly, Panasonic are using interpolation.
And motion handling is not necessarily about the smoothness of motion (otherwise LCDs with a great deal of soap opera effect would be "best") but rather the sharpness and clarity of motion, and how visible any artifacts are.
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

By the way, there's been an uptick in plasma motion processing attempted "debunking" recently and I'm not sure what's fueling it, because in every instance I've seen, in order to match plasma motion you have to put in place heroic demands on the hardware and your wallet.
Honestly, I think Plasma motion handling is overrated. I have yet to see a plasma which does not exhibit severe artifacts with motion (phosphor trailing or image quality problems relating to the panel driving) and their motion persistence is still relatively high, so they cannot cope with fast motion when playing games like a CRT does. (or a low persistence LCD)
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post #6599 of 11264 Old 08-13-2013, 01:44 PM
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if accurate, interesting differences between these 2 models

http://www.dailytech.com/Samsungs+55inch+Curved+OLED+TV+Ships+for+Only+9000/article33166c.htm
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post #6600 of 11264 Old 08-13-2013, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Desk. View Post

As posted by Vaktmestern on another forum, here's a picture of what's purported to be a NEW LG OLED set seemingly set to be unveiled at Ifa, and made available for sale a CHEAPER price than their only-just-released existing model...dd66d188a03d0b309f566175d16cd2ed_L.jpg
LG-Curved-3.jpg
LG-Curved-2.jpg
And a link to the source for this news...http://www.fullhd.gr/tileoraseis/oled-tvs/item/16016-lg-new-curved-tv-with-oled-ifa2013.html
With this, and the news today that Samsung are cutting the RRP of its curved screen by 34% in South Korea, I'm growing more optimistic by the hour.

Very nice I want one, no wait I want a 4K projector with a 12 feet wide screen smile.gif
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