OLED TVs: Technology Advancements Thread - Page 262 - AVS Forum
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post #7831 of 10954 Old 12-29-2013, 05:24 AM
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Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

Your outpourings just prove you have no background knowledge in signal/image processing and so you can play chief creationist role in this forum.
You apply bandlimiting when downsampling (or at the time of capture in the camera) to avoid aliasing due to the nyquist limits.

This has zero relevance to the images I have posted which are static computer generated images, intended to be displayed 1:1 on an LCD, rather than video or images captured at a higher resolution than the display.
It also has no relevance when upsampling to 4K, because you are starting with a source which has less than half the resolution of the display.

This is actually why some people involved in video production have said to me that you're technically viewing an aliased image when watching video 1:1 mapped on any display - because it exceeds the nyquist limits. They can make a case for that if they want to, but I think it's an interesting perspective.

Looking at those two images I have posted - regardless of whether you think it's too close to the display, whether you would see it at your "normal viewing distance" or whatever else you can come up with - would you not agree that the underlying image is clearer on the higher resolution display?
It may not look as sharp (which is more of a photography issue than anything else) but would you agree that the actual text and images are clearer due to the lack of a grid over the image and lack of color fringing caused by the larger subpixels?
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Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

What people are saying about 4K is not relevant, what experts are saying is. People are often misled by the type of content and viewing distance.
And yet I have done comparisons side-by-side with displays and carefully selected content, yet I can clearly see a difference. (from further than 3PH distance)
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post #7832 of 10954 Old 12-29-2013, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

You apply bandlimiting when downsampling (or at the time of capture in the camera) to avoid aliasing due to the nyquist limits.

This has zero relevance to the images I have posted which are static computer generated images, intended to be displayed 1:1 on an LCD, rather than video or images captured at a higher resolution than the display.
It also has no relevance when upsampling to 4K, because you are starting with a source which has less than half the resolution of the display.

This is actually why some people involved in video production have said to me that you're technically viewing an aliased image when watching video 1:1 mapped on any display - because it exceeds the nyquist limits. They can make a case for that if they want to, but I think it's an interesting perspective.

It is obvious one can generate images which are not properly bandlimited. In simple case like e.g. vertical or horizontal one-pixel wide square waves there will be no artefacts. This however is misleading since practical signals will exhibit aliasing.
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Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

Looking at those two images I have posted - regardless of whether you think it's too close to the display, whether you would see it at your "normal viewing distance" or whatever else you can come up with - would you not agree that the underlying image is clearer on the higher resolution display?
It may not look as sharp (which is more of a photography issue than anything else) but would you agree that the actual text and images are clearer due to the lack of a grid over the image and lack of color fringing caused by the larger subpixels?)

How much the grid visibility is relevant to any practical VS? As said before color fringing is type of aliasing error, you may eliminate it with higher resolution but other artefacts e.g. jaggies mya become more pronounced. Upsampling by pixel replication is not correct operation in signal processing terms and thus it does not guarantee perfect results.
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And yet I have done comparisons side-by-side with displays and carefully selected content, yet I can clearly see a difference. (from further than 3PH distance)

Yet e.g. one known expert who has 85@4K LG panel claims to see the benefit of 4K he had to move his sofa to 1.8PH. Taking your cavalier approach to other problems I am suspicious about your testing.

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post #7833 of 10954 Old 12-29-2013, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

I'm sorry, but........................what???!!!!
Technically speaking, of course.

 

LOL.  No.


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post #7834 of 10954 Old 12-29-2013, 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

It is obvious one can generate images which are not properly bandlimited. In simple case like e.g. vertical or horizontal one-pixel wide square waves there will be no artefacts. This however is misleading since practical signals will exhibit aliasing.
How much the grid visibility is relevant to any practical VS? As said before color fringing is type of aliasing error, you may eliminate it with higher resolution but other artefacts e.g. jaggies mya become more pronounced. Upsampling by pixel replication is not correct operation in signal processing terms and thus it does not guarantee perfect results.
I give up. Clearly you do not have any experience in this area and have latched onto one thing you've read online somewhere. This is not worth my time.

Maybe when you see it yourself, you will finally accept that 4K can look better than 1080p, at much further distances than whatever articles you have read that agree with your beliefs.
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post #7835 of 10954 Old 12-29-2013, 06:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post


.... 4K can look better than 1080p, at much further distances than whatever articles you have read....

Not that it matters, but I clipped the passage carefully and agree strongly with the portion I clipped.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #7836 of 10954 Old 12-30-2013, 01:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

Maybe when you see it yourself, you will finally accept that 4K can look better than 1080p, at much further distances than whatever articles you have read that agree with your beliefs.
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Not that it matters, but I clipped the passage carefully and agree strongly with the portion I clipped.

OK guys, no other way to proceed now than bombing you with the first nuke which has written 'Katzmaier' on its side:

With video on a TV, the difference between 4K/UHD and 1080p/HD resolution is really hard to see. Many of the words in those reviews were written on a laptop in my lab at a theatrically close seating distance, comparing a 65-inch 1080p and a 65-inch 4K TV. Despite all the extra pixels I knew made up the 4K TV's screen, most of the time I didn't see any difference at all, especially with HD TV shows and Blu-rays. The differences in detail I did see were limited to the very best 4K demo material. Larger TVs or closer seating distances make that difference more visible, as do computer graphics, animation, and games, but even then it's not drastic.


Is Katzmaier, the chief tester of CNET, blind to your claimed huge 4K benefits or maybe you are in some delusional mode?

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post #7837 of 10954 Old 12-30-2013, 02:06 AM
 
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The most significant caveat was his emphasis of HDTV shows and Blu-rays, which are limited to 1080p. Frankly, his findings don't surprise me at all, and I am not interested in upscaling and the quantization it involves...I've never been one to be impressed by its previous incarnation (480p --> 1080p), but I know some here swear by it. Note he did see differences with actual 4K material, and I am curious how many feet away he was sitting. I couldn't find the distance listed in the article.
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post #7838 of 10954 Old 12-30-2013, 03:44 AM
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He mentions 'theatrical viewing distance' which means comfortably close and definitely not too far. He says in adding: The differences in detail I did see were limited to the very best 4K demo material. Larger TVs or closer seating distances make that difference more visible, as do computer graphics, animation, and games, but even then it's not drastic.

Now the "very best 4K demo" means very lightly or transparent, compressed content which is not delivered in practice.

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post #7839 of 10954 Old 12-30-2013, 04:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irkuck 
He mentions 'theatrical viewing distance' which means comfortably close and definitely not too far.


theatrically close seating distance does not means comfortably close. Its more like first/second row which are the ones that are hard to sell .
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post #7840 of 10954 Old 12-30-2013, 06:53 AM
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

The most significant caveat was his emphasis of HDTV shows and Blu-rays, which are limited to 1080p. Frankly, his findings don't surprise me at all, and I am not interested in upscaling and the quantization it involves...I've never been one to be impressed by its previous incarnation (480p --> 1080p), but I know some here swear by it. Note he did see differences with actual 4K material, and I am curious how many feet away he was sitting. I couldn't find the distance listed in the article.

 

Well Vinnie, you beat me to it again...


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post #7841 of 10954 Old 12-30-2013, 07:15 AM
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Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

Is Katzmaier, the chief tester of CNET, blind to your claimed huge 4K benefits or maybe you are in some delusional mode?
While I think he does great work, there have been a number of things he has written which I disagree with.
And maybe for him, 4K is not worth it, but having seen it myself and discussed it with another prominent reviewer, I think 4K is absolutely worth it. (so did he)

And from another topic:
Quote:
Originally Posted by http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/news/2013/10/ultra-hd-vs-hd-tv-is-ultra-worth-the-extra-money/index.htm 

Compared to the image on a 1080p TV, the same content upconverted to 4K gives you most of the benefits we saw with the true 4K image, minus the extra detail. When displayed on the 4K screen, the finest details in the HD image were better resolved, with edges that were visibly smoother and less jagged than on the HDTV’s coarser 1080p pixel grid. And I saw no obvious upconversion artifacts to speak of, which demonstrates that the benefits of an Ultra HD TV's higher pixel density can still be appreciated even without true 4K content to watch.

FDGYJSQs.jpg GassfgWs.jpg
IrdVnvos.jpg Gf5QZwfs.jpg

Looking at the upconverted images (photos 4 and 8) and comparing them to the HD versions (photos 3 and 7) and true 4K versions (photo 2 and 6), you'll see that while they don't recover all the detail shown in the 4K photos, you do get a smoother, less-coarse image and slightly better detail than you'd see on a regular HDTV.

Huh, would you look at that. They see the same thing I did when moving to a higher resolution panel, and reach the same conclusion - 1080p is better resolved on a 4K panel than a 1080p native one.

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I am not interested in upscaling and the quantization it involves...I've never been one to be impressed by its previous incarnation (480p --> 1080p), but I know some here swear by it.
I think you would be surprised at the difference you will see when using some of the better upscaling available today (my preference is using madVR on a HTPC) on a 1080p panel compared to DVDs being displayed at their native resolution on a lower resolution panel.

I was never really convinced by my original Oppo upscaling player - it looked better than the TV handling the upscaling, but I wouldn't say that it ever looked great.
Of course these days we have access to higher resolution sources for a lot of content, so SD upscaling is becoming less important. There are still a number of films I enjoy which don't have an HD release though, and television shows which will likely never see an HD release.
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post #7842 of 10954 Old 12-30-2013, 07:34 AM
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Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

[to Chronoptimist] Is Katzmaier, the chief tester of CNET, blind to your claimed huge 4K benefits or maybe you are in some delusional mode?

 

I'm still missing something.  Irkuck, have you checked out the 4K displays yourself?  If you go to BB/Mag, compare the 65X900A to any 2K around (at the very least, they'll have a ZT60 nearby).  Even ask for the 2K upscale on the 900A, because it does a pretty darn good job by itself.  Count the paces backward.

 

Note: be somewhat careful of the displays you're choosing.  The last time I was there they had a samsung 4K that was horribly soft.  And of course be sure to ask what signal they're supplying.


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post #7843 of 10954 Old 12-30-2013, 10:28 AM
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And if IGZO backplanes and quantum-dot films catch on, those LCDs will just get better and better and better... If local dimming returns, well, wow... they are going to be flat out great. And cheap.

Unfortunately your predictions on OLED seem accurate although I wish I could say otherwise my friend. However you also bring up a good note buddy and their would appear to be light at the end of the tunnel if they do end up bringing back local-dimming down the road with 4k I'd be ok with that. biggrin.gif

 

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post #7844 of 10954 Old 12-30-2013, 10:32 AM
 
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You'll need a Magnolia to see a ZT60 unfortunately (probably the same for the 4K sets?).

Chrono, I've heard good things about MadVR, and I have not exactly been wowed by Oppo's (or, prior to that, Samsung's implementation of Silicon Optix's HQV, on the BDP-UP5000) QDEO implementation or prior AnchorBay chip on the BDP-83. Being spoiled by actual HD content from the beginning may be playing a role.
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post #7845 of 10954 Old 12-30-2013, 11:26 AM
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So here's a question, following the gloom after the Panasonic/Sony split....

I guess most people reading this have an interest in owning an OLED TV. If it were to appear that production of OLED TVs was to be abandoned completely, would you then purchase a set at whatever price they cost at that point?

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post #7846 of 10954 Old 12-30-2013, 11:33 AM
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No. That would be like buying an Edsel because they were no longer going to be made.
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post #7847 of 10954 Old 12-30-2013, 11:34 AM
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Well you can only hope that somebody revisits some of the other technologies like SED. Then again, maybe TVs just aren't lucrative enough to offer a big pie that patent holders would share amicably.

Already, the Panasonic site no longer offers the ST60 plasma models in most of the sizes.

So it's looking more like an LCD future ...
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post #7848 of 10954 Old 12-30-2013, 12:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

And from another topic:
Huh, would you look at that. They see the same thing I did when moving to a higher resolution panel, and reach the same conclusion - 1080p is better resolved on a 4K panel than a 1080p native one.
.

What is the VD to se the pixel grid? What it has to do with any normal VS? One can improve subjective PQ by clever processing. Now if one shows such cleverly processed 4K vs. unprocessed 2K to not-so-clever people they get their brains washed.

I looked at the 4K and 2K TVs in shops, obviously not in side-by-side calibrated conditions. What i was able to establish is that pixel grid visibility distance for 2K is twice the one for 4K which is trivial. Regarding the PQ any judgement should be reserved before knowing what kind of subjective PQ enhancement engines they use in 4K vs. 2K. According to statements, the 4K engines are way better than 2K. That does not mean 4K itself is so much better.

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post #7849 of 10954 Old 12-30-2013, 12:45 PM
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Well, you know, I think I would buy an OLED set if they were about to halt production.

I've waited so long for this technology to arrive, foregoing plasma and LCD because I just didn't feel they represented a genuine advance over CRT - but were rather a step backwards, at least at first.

OLED seems to offer everything I want, and while I should probably be rushing out to buy one of the last Panny plasmas, I'd rather hold onto that cash and put it towards something I really want, as costly as it might prove to be.

Hell, I've waited this long - I'm not going to give up on getting one now.

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post #7850 of 10954 Old 12-30-2013, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Desk. View Post

Well, you know, I think I would buy an OLED set if they were about to halt production.

I've waited so long for this technology to arrive, foregoing plasma and LCD because I just didn't feel they represented a genuine advance over CRT - but were rather a step backwards, at least at first.

OLED seems to offer everything I want, and while I should probably be rushing out to buy one of the last Panny plasmas, I'd rather hold onto that cash and put it towards something I really want, as costly as it might prove to be.

Hell, I've waited this long - I'm not going to give up on getting one now.

Desk

 

Sounds like you would do well to just buy something and then buy again later.


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post #7851 of 10954 Old 12-30-2013, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Desk. View Post

Well, you know, I think I would buy an OLED set if they were about to halt production.

I've waited so long for this technology to arrive, foregoing plasma and LCD because I just didn't feel they represented a genuine advance over CRT - but were rather a step backwards, at least at first.

OLED seems to offer everything I want, and while I should probably be rushing out to buy one of the last Panny plasmas, I'd rather hold onto that cash and put it towards something I really want, as costly as it might prove to be.

Hell, I've waited this long - I'm not going to give up on getting one now.

Desk

I don't know what the future will hold for OLEDs but if Samsung can produce another PDP equivalent to it's F8500 series, w/o the buzz, I will buy one during 2014.
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post #7852 of 10954 Old 12-30-2013, 01:37 PM
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Sounds like you would do well to just buy something and then buy again later.
Easier said than done.

I did finally cave this summer and bought a Samsung 55F8000 LED set. The picture was everything I could have hoped for... In the daytime. At night, the blacks became greys, and I was left wondering why I should spend so much money on a TV that cant't produce black levels to rival my 17-year-old CRT. So it went back.

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post #7853 of 10954 Old 12-30-2013, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

Sounds like you would do well to just buy something and then buy again later.
Easier said than done.

I did finally cave this summer and bought a Samsung 55F8000 LED set. The picture was everything I could have hoped for... In the daytime. At night, the blacks became greys, and I was left wondering why I should spend so much money on a TV that cant't produce black levels to rival my 17-year-old CRT. So it went back.

Desk

 

Well if plasma's are out, consider the 2012 Sony HX950.  It may be the very best picture I've ever seen (still).  It's a full array too with spectacular motion handling.  They're 2K sets, and will more than "hold you over" well until you can make another decision.  Really though, IMO it's the closest you'll get to CRT.  You might never want to give it up.  I might have gotten one had it not been that the size was wrong (55 & 65, and I wanted 60), and that it was active 3d.  Other than that though.....>oooooof< what a picture.


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Originally Posted by Desk. View Post

Easier said than done.

I did finally cave this summer and bought a Samsung 55F8000 LED set. The picture was everything I could have hoped for... In the daytime. At night, the blacks became greys, and I was left wondering why I should spend so much money on a TV that cant't produce black levels to rival my 17-year-old CRT. So it went back.

Desk
So you haven't waited. Why did you forego plasma again?
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post #7855 of 10954 Old 12-30-2013, 03:23 PM
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So you haven't waited. Why did you forego plasma again?

Well, I briefly owned an LED, decided against it, and am back to waiting.

As for why I didn't adopt plasma, I've just never been that convinced by its image. To my eyes, the dithering creates a sense of unwelcome noise, movement and 'life' in the image, and also renders it rather soft. I also find the pictures, and their colours, rather 'dense' and 'heavy'.

But anyway, I'm conscious that this is all taking the discussion dangerously off-topic.

Here's hoping that CES gives some indications about what the future holds.

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post #7856 of 10954 Old 12-30-2013, 03:54 PM
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I guess most people reading this have an interest in owning an OLED TV. If it were to appear that production of OLED TVs was to be abandoned completely, would you then purchase a set at whatever price they cost at that point?
Assuming that we get 2014 models to pick from (hopefully Samsung will have a flat model next year) and not the ones currently shipping, I probably would. I don't think I would buy any of the current models even if they were more reasonably priced.
I don't want a curved display, and I absolutely will not buy a display using more than three subpixels per pixel. (LG's flat OLED is still using WRGB)

Sony have committed to a 4K OLED broadcast monitor in 2014, which I'm guessing is going to be a BVM in the $30,000-40,000 range.
If that leads to a PVM model in the $10,000 range later in the year, I would be very tempted. But that's probably being far too optimistic on pricing.

I think that a professional OLED like that would be enough to basically sit out the next generation of displays until people are talking about 8K or something else 5+ years from now, which is why I would be willing to pay that kind of money for one.
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So you haven't waited. Why did you forego plasma again?
As someone that really likes CRTs, I genuinely don't think a plasma display is a suitable replacement either. Even the best ones still won't produce black levels on par with a CRT, and there are all kinds of temporal artifacts which CRTs never had.
I know it's an unpopular opinion, but the closest thing we had to a CRT in most respects was a full array local dimming LCD which used backlight scanning.
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http://www.bigpicturebigsound.com/Samsung-Panasonic-Plasma-TVs-Trounce-the-LED-Competition-Again-at-Flat-Panel-Shootout-2013.shtml - had to do it because obviously there are some parameters in which plasma trumps even CRT and the tech with which we are soon to be saddled. Otherwise it wouldn't have had such a good showing, unless they laced the punch with hallucinogens.
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post #7858 of 10954 Old 12-30-2013, 07:47 PM
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Getting back to the subject of OLEDs...

This Business Week Article about the doom and gloom triggered by the Sony/Panasonic partnership has the following quote that seems to give some optimism about their future OLED plans:
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“From now on, each company will independently continue development of OLED, utilizing the results of their joint collaboration,” Panasonic spokesman Jim Reilly said in an e-mail, declining to comment on the company’s future plans for OLED sets. A Sony spokesman told Bloomberg News that the company would continue its OLED research.

Can't wait to see what comes out of CES. Press day is one week away.
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post #7859 of 10954 Old 12-30-2013, 10:29 PM
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Originally Posted by RadTech51 View Post

Unfortunately your predictions on OLED seem accurate although I wish I could say otherwise my friend.

Thanks, Rad. I also wish I could say otherwise. The best hope is that eventually we get the OLED TV we want.
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However you also bring up a good note buddy and their would appear to be light at the end of the tunnel if they do end up bringing back local-dimming down the road with 4k I'd be ok with that. biggrin.gif

It seems like we might get such a thing.
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Originally Posted by Rich Peterson View Post

Getting back to the subject of OLEDs...

This Business Week Article about the doom and gloom triggered by the Sony/Panasonic partnership has the following quote that seems to give some optimism about their future OLED plans:
Can't wait to see what comes out of CES. Press day is one week away.

I know you want to read that quote as optimistic, but it isn't. It's corporate-speak that basically says, "We spent money and don't want you to construe that spending as having been for absolutely nothing."

The way I read the end of the collaboration (as did most people I spoke with) is: they got essentially nowhere in the part of OLED that remains the hard part. What's that? Making them. So instead of wasting time on developing technology to make them -- for 2 companies that don't even make anything -- they just stopped. Every industry forecast has 4K LCD outselling OLED through the end of the decade.

The conventional wisdom is that Panasonic is absolutely done with the project and Sony will continue limited R&D because, well, they were first to commercialize OLED and they have a small division that supplies the broadcast and production industries which actually does make the displays. But the idea that Sony is commercializing OLED televisions in the foreseeable future is dead.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #7860 of 10954 Old 12-30-2013, 10:30 PM
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What makes Sony/Pana decision even more telling is that they must have evaluated the Kateeva OLED printing technology among others. The end result had to be very pessimistic: "OLED panels future is a gamble in which pumping billions and billions for prolonged time may result in getting lead of the market. But profits will not be there and we have no money for gambling". Sony by the way knows OLED in-depth: they make extremely sophisticated miniature OLED displays with highest pixel density as electronic viewfinders in their cameras, e.g. recent A7 full frame compacts.

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