OLED TVs: Technology Advancements Thread - Page 28 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #811 of 12361 Old 01-18-2009, 10:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carled View Post

Designers need to balance factors like flicker, blur, light output and product lifespan when deciding on the duty cycle it uses.

This is why i think some day frame rates will be raised (at the source) and these problems go away.
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post #812 of 12361 Old 01-18-2009, 10:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twinbee View Post

Q1: Just to make sure we're speaking on the same wavelength, just confirm this will produce blurry motion:
T=time in 1/60ths of a second; P1=pixel 1; P2=pixel 2 (just to the right of P1); P3=Pixel 3 (right of P2); P4=pixel 4 (right of P3)

T p1 p2 p3 p4
0 on off off off
1 off on off off
2 off off on off
3 off off off on

That will simply show a pixel moving from left to right. So just to double check, I assume it will blur then if those measurements are followed exactly.

Q2: Will it still blur if the last fraction of a fraction (say 1/500th of a second) is pitch black? Or is something like 50%/50% better? Or perhaps mostly black is even better still where the pixel is on for a very very short time (say one tenth of 1/60th sec), and most of it remains off (nine tenths of 1/60th sec). In that last case, although the flicker is at its worst, the motion blur will be minimised almost completely I'm guessing.

It would seem the 'holy grail' has now turned into where everything is shot at 500 fps and shown at that rate too. Maybe wait another 50 years for that to develop ;D

You got it perfectly right. The anwer is yes to all.

Using your example think of it this way. Your eye tracks/follows that "on" pixel as it moves. Where the problem occurs is your eye tracks/follows it in a continuous analog fashion while the pixel is stationary at each location (each frame). Therefore the pixel literally draws a line on your retina in the direction your eye is moving. Ideally the pixel needs to emit light for the shortest possible time at each location to avoid drawing this line on your moving retina. Ideally the pixel should draw a dot onto your moving retina (pulse).

Simply put hold type blurring is the conflict between the continuous analog type movement of your eye with the sequential still frame of a display.

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post #813 of 12361 Old 01-18-2009, 10:17 PM
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Right, the first example you gave would have retinal blur if it was done on a display with an 100% duty cycle. If it was just one pixel of an entire display that was moving, I doubt it would be very severe, though, unless it was a lot brighter than the background.

Yes, a 99.08% duty cycle would result in more blur than a 50% duty cycle. By the time you get to about ~50% problems with retinal image retention would be pretty minor at normal viewing brightness levels. A 0.17% duty cycle would have negligable blur, but quite bad flicker (ie. worse than CRT).

A high frame rate (eg. 500Hz in your example) will improve temporal resolution, but is far less important to flicker and blur than duty cycle is.
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post #814 of 12361 Old 01-19-2009, 04:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twinbee View Post

No interpolation if you just repeat each frame again. a, a, b, b, c, c etc..

That is useless for SAH displays! Just note that if the duty cicle is 100%, a,a,b,b,c,c at 120Hz = a,b,c at 60Hz. The displayed picture is ALWAYS the same because there is no "off" between the frames.

If you repeat the frames on a PDP panel, for example, you get the same motion handling with less flicker. Kinda 1080p24 displayed at 72Hz on a PDP, or movies displayed at 48Hz on the cinema. That happens because you avoid SAH with a <100% duty cicle, while you reduce flicker with a higher display rate.

Unfortunately SAH displays, in order to get "cristal clear" just need to make a,a,b,b,c,c != a,b,c so that's why the motion interpolation exists. The higher the changing frames are on a SAH panel, the less motion blur you PERCEIVE.

Unfortunately there's no way to fully recreate nature with interpolation algorithms. Everything moves strangely once you do that. The faster the action, the worse the result.

I'd like to see a movie recorded and displayed at 240Hz. Many people says that would break the "cinema feel", and maybe they're right. But I'd like to see that once, just in case
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post #815 of 12361 Old 01-19-2009, 08:48 AM
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This is why i think some day frame rates will be raised (at the source) and these problems go away.

Yes, it'd be great to have stuff shot at say 75fps or more, and then we can emulate the CRT flicker (whatever duty cycle it uses at that rate) for brilliant video. The fact that LCD makers have gone up to 120hz or more sets a good precedent for video shooters to follow.

Actually, it would be a nice idea for TV/monitor makers to allow the duty cycle to be custom, so those who prefer non-blur at the cost of flicker can have it that way and vice versa.

I'll ask just one more question, since this probably isn't the best thread for the topic:
What would appear subjectively less blurry (assume a theoretical 0 second shutter speed for the camera, and 0 ms response rate for the display in each case):

a: 120fps with 100% duty cycle (shot at 120fps and displayed at 120fps)
b: 60fps with 50% duty cycle (shot at 60fps and displayed at 60fps)

Quote:
I'd like to see a movie recorded and displayed at 240Hz.

Too right. I'd love to see that too. If worst comes to worst, one can always artifically add motion blur or similar if the final result isn't satisfactory (or simply chop 9/10 frames out of course and run it at 24fps). Actually, maybe the artificial motion blur on 240fps would look even more 'film-like'.
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post #816 of 12361 Old 01-19-2009, 09:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twinbee View Post

Yes, it'd be great to have stuff shot at say 75fps or more, and then we can emulate the CRT flicker (whatever duty cycle it uses at that rate) for brilliant video. The fact that LCD makers have gone up to 120hz or more sets a good precedent for video shooters to follow.

Actually, it would be a nice idea for TV/monitor makers to allow the duty cycle to be custom, so those who prefer non-blur at the cost of flicker can have it that way and vice versa.

I'll ask just one more question, since this probably isn't the best thread for the topic:
What would appear subjectively less blurry (assume 0 ms response rate in each case):

a: 120fps with 100% duty cycle
b: 60fps with 50% duty cycle


Too right. I'd love to see that too. If worst comes to worst, one can always artifically add motion blur or similar if the final result isn't satisfactory (or simply chop 9/10 frames out of course and run it at 24fps). Actually, maybe the artificial motion blur on 240fps would look even more 'film-like'.

Recording video a higher frame rates has a huge advantage regarding motion blur. This is because not only is the hold time shorter but also the shutter time is shorter as well. So hold type blur is reduces and source blur (inherent to the signal) is also reduced.

Your question about which is less blurry cannot be answered unless you specify what signal is being displayed and if interpolation is used or not. It can get quite complicated.

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post #817 of 12361 Old 01-19-2009, 09:19 AM
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Oh right, I forget to mention that in the 120fps case, the source is also shot at that speed, as well as being displayed at 120fps (so that no interpolation is necessary). Sames goes for the 60fps case (shot at 60, displayed at 60)
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post #818 of 12361 Old 01-19-2009, 11:09 AM
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Couldn't you have low duty cycle and eliminate flicker by having a higher frame rate, but without interpolation. Say ABC -> AABBCC?
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post #819 of 12361 Old 01-19-2009, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daviii View Post


If you repeat the frames on a PDP panel, for example, you get the same motion handling with less flicker. That happens because you avoid SAH with a <100% duty cicle, while you reduce flicker with a higher display rate.

but repeating frames increases hold time due to "flicker fusion" - enough repeats bring you back to sample and hold. im sure best displays optomize flicker / blur / judder (and other factors) but still its a compromise at standard frame rates. i dont think any display can solve this because its not a display problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by twinbee View Post

Yes, it'd be great to have stuff shot at say 75fps or more..

would 75hz work i wonder. 75hz is fine for my 21" crt but would it be ok for brighter bigger, wider displays. compare the theatre experience - if 72 works there it should work anywere (i dont remember seeing 72hz movie myself so you might be able to tell me). i can see raising framerates to 75hz but 120 or 240, man thats a lot of expense (apparently)

Quote:
Originally Posted by xrox View Post

Recording video a higher frame rates has a huge advantage regarding motion blur. This is because not only is the hold time shorter but also the shutter time is shorter as well. So hold type blur is reduces and source blur (inherent to the signal) is also reduced.

good point xrox, but would you be willing to suffer soap - you hate soap
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post #820 of 12361 Old 01-19-2009, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twinbee View Post

Oh right, I forget to mention that in the 120fps case, the source is also shot at that speed, as well as being displayed at 120fps (so that no interpolation is necessary). Sames goes for the 60fps case (shot at 60, displayed at 60)

This would be an interesting test. Very interesting.........

Since both displays will have the exact same hold time:

a - 1/120=8.33ms
b - 1/60x0.5=8.33ms

This can be equated to comparing a 120Hz LCD with interpolation to a 120Hz LCD with BFI. Except the source frames in display "a" are shot at higher fps making them intrinsically clearer with motion.

I suspect that both displays will have very close degree of display induced blur with display "b" having a slight edge due to its blanking period. Display "a" will look kinda funny due to the higher intrinsic fps (similar to the AMP look).

However, because display "a" has a higher intrinsic fps source it should have much less source blur and be the winner.

Note: regarding blanking versus interpolating please study the following graphic. It shows that both methods improve blur perception but blanking is slightly better.


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post #821 of 12361 Old 01-19-2009, 12:13 PM
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would 75hz work i wonder.

I think I recall hearing that for flicker, there's a power of 4 law involved where higher refresh rates get subjectively better, more quickly higher up (perhaps assuming a constant duty cycle - say 50%). Still, 100fps should be a safer bet
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post #822 of 12361 Old 01-19-2009, 01:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xrox View Post

Since both displays will have the exact same hold time:

a - 1/120=8.33ms
b - 1/60x0.5=8.33ms

This can be equated to comparing a 120Hz LCD with interpolation to a 120Hz LCD with BFI.

Except that BFI changes the duty cycle, whereas temporal interpolation and frame doubling do not.
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post #823 of 12361 Old 01-19-2009, 01:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carled View Post

Except that BFI changes the duty cycle, whereas temporal interpolation and frame doubling do not.

Hence, the 0.5 factor. His original question already specified this. I am equating 16.7ms refresh time with 50% duty cycle to a panel with 8.333ms refresh with BFI.

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post #824 of 12361 Old 01-19-2009, 06:26 PM
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Ok, so OLED has, as I understand it, the fastest raw response rate of any display, right. Couldn't it utilise that extremely high response rate to emulate how plasma cells charge up and down and thereby avoid both flicker and blurring? LCD's can do 240hz updates now, and the electronics driving LCD's is the same active matrix that will drive OLED, so it should be possible, anyone?
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post #825 of 12361 Old 01-19-2009, 07:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Kamikaze=- View Post

Ok, so OLED has, as I understand it, the fastest raw response rate of any display, right. Couldn't it utilise that extremely high response rate to emulate how plasma cells charge up and down and thereby avoid both flicker and blurring? LCD's can do 240hz updates now, and the electronics driving LCD's is the same active matrix that will drive OLED, so it should be possible, anyone?

I take it you mean pulse width modulation. That's very easy to do with LEDs. The only problem is that pulsing organic LEDs makes them degrade faster.

My view is that increasing refresh rates very quickly runs into diminshing returns unless the source material itself happens to have greater temporal resolution. I'm sure it's quite possible to make a 2400Hz display using current technology, but aside from something to put on the spec sheets, there is little meaningful to gain from doing so. You'd be much better served by lobbying the film industry to start filming in 48Hz or something.
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post #826 of 12361 Old 01-21-2009, 09:19 AM
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about that.. (Emulate a CRT to remove motion blur.)
I found this patent document that sounds promising, any news on progress?

Variable driving voltage to replace the "always on" with a triangle form.

~p.17 shows the method... (and p.8 for differences)
https://publications.european-patent...=1873746&ki=A1
02.01.2008(2006)
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post #827 of 12361 Old 01-21-2009, 06:05 PM
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I didn't know Kodak developed OLED [over 30 years ago]. I was watching The Science Channel HD special, "CES 2009," and at the very end of the show they had a lengthy segment about the inner workings of OLED. It was very interesting.

1. Sorry for the dumb question, but can anyone hazzard a guess for me in regards to when the blue dye part of OLED, when they will get that to last just about as long as the red and green dyes?

Thank-you for your help. I feel inferior to your guys OLED knowledge.

P.S.

Might have more questions coming later.

1. [Blue dye > (my PS3 layer went out 4 months! after I bought it).]

2. Heard water/condesation is not good for OLED.

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post #828 of 12361 Old 01-21-2009, 07:43 PM
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The blue doesnt need to last as long as the green or red, it just needs to last long enough, 50k hours or more.
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post #829 of 12361 Old 01-22-2009, 12:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tele-TV View Post

1. Sorry for the dumb question, but can anyone hazzard a guess for me in regards to when the blue dye part of OLED, when they will get that to last just about as long as the red and green dyes?

Never. Blue OLED lifespans are increasing, but so are red and green ones.

Well, I guess if you extend the time axis indefinately, given the greater R&D budgets going to the blue OLED, that they would occlude eventually, but certainly not in the medium term.

But, as Human Bass says, for consumer electronics uses it only needs to last long enough to be commercially viable. Maybe 35k-40k hours. The industry certainly won't try too hard to make the displays last forever as they want to lock you into a cycle of buying new TVs much more regularly than you need to.

For uses outside of consumer electronics and lighting (OLED lasers, for example) the life spans will need to be expanded by orders of magnitude, so research will continue long after they've cracked the OLED television nut.
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post #830 of 12361 Old 01-22-2009, 09:14 AM
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All the three OLED colors should decay at approximately the same rate or the display will show a color shift with time.
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post #831 of 12361 Old 01-22-2009, 11:52 AM
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^^ Thank-u! Human Bass, Carled, and Mike Baker for your input. I can't wait to visit this thread more often and read-up on OLED.

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post #832 of 12361 Old 01-22-2009, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by MikeBiker View Post

All the three OLED colors should decay at approximately the same rate or the display will show a color shift with time.

Yep. That's the most important- age at the same rate. For the first 40,000 hours or so, anyway.

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post #833 of 12361 Old 01-22-2009, 06:53 PM
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Yep. That's the most important- age at the same rate. For the first 40,000 hours or so, anyway.

Which is near impossible for devices that emit light. Even plasma doesn't age the same hense the chroma shift during break in. Some colors wear out faster, always will. Most of the time it will be blue that goes first. Blue is higher fequency light and needs more juice pumped through it to get the brightness to match the others. Because there is more juice needed more heat is generated and the more heat the faster it wil fade.

There have been some good advancements with the efficiency of the blue emitter and that will continue for some time. (there was a time when regular blue LEDs didn't exist at all. Now they exist and fitting they need more voltage than the other colors to work).

What will happen is over time the OLED display will shift towards the yellow. This isn't as big a problem as you think. There is circuitry that monitors the hours and brightness on the blue emmitters and dim the other colors according to the lifetime curve of the blue. What will happen is the set will just get dimmer over time like any CRT or plasma. Because the electronics may not predict exactly and you still may get color shift a simple menu with RGB sliders should be available. A quick tweak of the sliders and you are good to go for thousands of hours more.
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post #834 of 12361 Old 01-22-2009, 07:16 PM - Thread Starter
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When blue becomes the best it can, it will be time to make crappier red and green. To balance a stool, just cut off the two long legs if the short one can't be made longer.
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post #835 of 12361 Old 01-22-2009, 08:29 PM
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When blue becomes the best it can, it will be time to make crappier red and green. To balance a stool, just cut off the two long legs if the short one can't be made longer.

Quick question. Because the saturation of green is so awful on CRT and especially LCD, why does an equal mix with the relatively good red and blue produce grey (when one might expect greyish magenta)? Am I right is saying the display automatically dulls the red and blue elements to compensate?

If that's the case, then you don't need to make the green and red elements worse, but instead just perform on the fly calcs which make them more dull sometimes whilst in use. But maybe that's what you mean anyway.
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post #836 of 12361 Old 01-23-2009, 12:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twinbee View Post

Quick question. Because the saturation of green is so awful on CRT and especially LCD, why does an equal mix with the relatively good red and blue produce grey (when one might expect greyish magenta)? Am I right is saying the display automatically dulls the red and blue elements to compensate?

If that's the case, then you don't need to make the green and red elements worse, but instead just perform on the fly calcs which make them more dull sometimes whilst in use. But maybe that's what you mean anyway.

Two things:

1. The colour points used in the HDTV standard (BT.709) are based on phosphor colour points, so any display, CRT/CCFL LCD/plasma or otherwise, calibrated to the standard will have equal colourometry.

2. The grey point selected by the standard (D65) is located in a place where it won't have a magenta or green cast.
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post #837 of 12361 Old 01-23-2009, 07:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveC19 View Post

Which is near impossible for devices that emit light. Even plasma doesn't age the same hence the chroma shift during break in. Some colors wear out faster, always will. Most of the time it will be blue that goes first. Blue is higher frequency light and needs more juice pumped through it to get the brightness to match the others. Because there is more juice needed more heat is generated and the more heat the faster it will fade.

There have been some good advancements with the efficiency of the blue emitter and that will continue for some time. (there was a time when regular blue LEDs didn't exist at all. Now they exist and fitting they need more voltage than the other colors to work).

What will happen is over time the OLED display will shift towards the yellow. This isn't as big a problem as you think. There is circuitry that monitors the hours and brightness on the blue emitters and dim the other colors according to the lifetime curve of the blue. What will happen is the set will just get dimmer over time like any CRT or plasma. Because the electronics may not predict exactly and you still may get color shift a simple menu with RGB sliders should be available. A quick tweak of the sliders and you are good to go for thousands of hours more.

Thank you. Nice post. Nice to know there is some adjustment. I suspect some sort of reading of the actual decay would be more accurate, but I suppose monitoring hours may work rather well, assuming good modeling. Yes, a bit of home calibrating should work quite well.

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post #838 of 12361 Old 01-25-2009, 10:51 AM
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So no news on it then (#826), dang.
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post #839 of 12361 Old 01-25-2009, 09:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Isochroma View Post

Eyes on with LG's near-production 15-inch OLED TV: come on summer
7 January 2009




On display here at CES and planned for a production run sometime this summer, the image is absolutely stunning -- every bit as impressive as the Sony's XEL-1.

Horrors upon horrors, the nightmare scenario!!

I have seen the OLED by Sony, and the pics here are even worse.

What good is any flat panel technology if the engineers do not have the intelligence to realize that room reflections destroy the image?

These are not concept cars, has this world lost its mind???

Ridiculous.
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post #840 of 12361 Old 01-26-2009, 12:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Sounds like it's time for you to get in touch with Thomas Ricker. Ask him about attending CES 2010.

Then we can have some better-quality photos of this amazing new technology.
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