OLED TVs: Technology Advancements Thread - Page 365 - AVS Forum
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post #10921 of 10948 Old 09-15-2014, 08:28 AM
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The heck with that post, I love the picture!
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post #10922 of 10948 Old 09-15-2014, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by valvaholic View Post
Question regarding the upscaler...
I've pre-ordered LG's 65EC9700 4K OLED. Any info on the quality of upscaler used? I just see the usual LG marketing terms. I'm wondering if say, an OPPO 103 may offer a superior 4K scaler to that of the LG? The OPPO could tide me over till 4K BluRay appears...
I did see one review recently (can't recall which one) that said the upscaling quality was excellent. I have no idea how it compares to the OPPO. I too was looking for that information as that will obviously be very important for quite some time to come.
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post #10923 of 10948 Old 09-15-2014, 05:19 PM
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Yes upscaling quality is the whole thing for me since I have a huge collection of dvd concerts that I love and using the Oppo 83 along with a darbee has given me amazing results on my calibrated Samsung 8500 LED.I dont want to sacrifice PQ on standard discs that will have to upscale to 4K.Plan on using my Oppo 83 on the 65 Oled to upscale my dvds.Hope this will work out.

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post #10924 of 10948 Old 09-16-2014, 05:50 AM
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Printed OLED TVs from Kateeva's manufacturing systems reportedly several years away

Unless I'm reading this wrong, this is disappointing news: According to oled-info.com, Kateeva expects many orders for their OLED printing manufacturing systems in 2015 but they are for flexible and small-screen applications. They say OLED printed TVs are not expected until 2020.

Quote:
Kateeva's plan is to produce encapsulation systems for flexible OLEDs in the near term (forecasting sales of over $100 million per year). In 2020, they will start offering OLED TV printing systems - and this is a much bigger opportunity (over $1 billion per year).
But one positive thing is that Samsung is one of the investors in Kateeva.

Last edited by Rich Peterson; 09-16-2014 at 05:56 AM.
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post #10925 of 10948 Old 09-16-2014, 06:22 AM
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LG Display Sees OLED Profit as Talks Continue With Sony

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-0...with-sony.html

They are counting on companies such as Sony and Panasonic to generate a wider acceptance of OLED TVs.
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post #10926 of 10948 Old 09-16-2014, 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Rich Peterson View Post
Unless I'm reading this wrong, this is disappointing news: According to oled-info.com, Kateeva expects many orders for their OLED printing manufacturing systems in 2015 but they are for flexible and small-screen applications. They say OLED printed TVs are not expected until 2020.
Quote:
Kateeva's plan is to produce encapsulation systems for flexible OLEDs in the near term (forecasting sales of over $100 million per year). In 2020, they will start offering OLED TV printing systems - and this is a much bigger opportunity (over $1 billion per year).
But one positive thing is that Samsung is one of the investors in Kateeva.

What actually was said is ''Research company IHS says the market for flexible displays is expected to grow rapidly this year and reach nearly $100 million. But the bigger market is OLED TVs, says Harrus, who estimates it will be more than $1 billion annually after 2020.''
http://www.xconomy.com/san-francisco...utm_source=rss

According rogo Alain Harrus (CEO Kateeva) said that timetable for Kateeva-based TVs is about 2 years out.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/markrogo...msung-kateeva/

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post #10927 of 10948 Old 09-16-2014, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post
What actually was said is ''Research company IHS says the market for flexible displays is expected to grow rapidly this year and reach nearly $100 million. But the bigger market is OLED TVs, says Harrus, who estimates it will be more than $1 billion annually after 2020.''
http://www.xconomy.com/san-francisco...utm_source=rss

According rogo Alain Harrus (CEO Kateeva) said that timetable for Kateeva-based TVs is about 2 years out.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/markrogo...msung-kateeva/
I hate to sound like a broken record, but where exactly are the manufacturers that will buy production equipment from Kateeva gonna get materials from?


Word on the street is PPG (UDC) are years away from being able to make enough to soluble materials to meet demand of any kind and rumor has that PPG may even drop out. EMD Millipore (Merck) are having troubles with solubles, too although they still plan to enter the market in 2015, however they (UDC and Merck) are getting more and more sick and tired of sinking hundreds of millions of dollars into OLED with no returns by day. Merck and UDC will be the ones shipping soluble materials for Kateeva's printers in 2015 in limited quantities.


http://www.ppg.com/en/newsroom/news/...20131122A.aspx

....

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post #10928 of 10948 Old 09-16-2014, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post
Printables for TV still have issues around materials longevity -- ironically not a problem for smartphones -- but the hope is that steady progress is being made there too.
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Originally Posted by stas3098 View Post
I hate to sound like a broken record, but where exactly are the manufacturers that will buy production equipment from Kateeva gonna get materials from?

Word on the street is PPG (UDC) are years away from being able to make enough to soluble materials to meet demand of any kind and rumor has that PPG may even drop out. EMD Millipore (Merck) are having troubles with solubles, too although they still plan to enter the market in 2015, however they (UDC and Merck) are getting more and more sick and tired of sinking hundreds of millions of dollars into OLED with no returns by day. Merck and UDC will be the ones shipping soluble materials for Kateeva's printers in 2015 in limited quantities.
Rogo, you talked to Kateeva.. any comment on this? Or on encapsulation materials being used with Kateeva equipment? Or on Kateeva and LG?
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post #10929 of 10948 Old 09-16-2014, 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Rich Peterson View Post
Unless I'm reading this wrong, this is disappointing news: According to oled-info.com, Kateeva expects many orders for their OLED printing manufacturing systems in 2015 but they are for flexible and small-screen applications. They say OLED printed TVs are not expected until 2020.

But one positive thing is that Samsung is one of the investors in Kateeva.
Should probably read posts from other sources. I dunno who else wrote about this Kateeva thing, but I think I read somewhere that they expect systems for TV production to be in place by 2016. That doesn't mean you'll be buying a TV in 2016, but perhaps close to that.

They also seem to think that a 10% +/- premium to existing high-end stuff is the price target around then for such TVs.

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Rogo, you talked to Kateeva.. any comment on this? Or on encapsulation materials being used with Kateeva equipment? Or on Kateeva and LG?
Well, as I wrote above, 2020 is way later than Kateeva is targeting. And in 2015, they expect customers to take their equipment and make flexible displays. Obviously, they will need OLED material to do that, but to describe this as a "non-concern" in the short run wouldn't be completely off base.

As for 2016, when the TV-based stuff is expected to be ready to go to market with the TVs themselves to follow soon after, I'd say you might think about it this way: You can't justify upping production of soluble OLED material without a market for soluble OLED material. You can't make a market for it without a way of making the displays. The world has that way now. It's going to start making displays. That will start making the money. That should attract investment in the material making.

Maybe there are issues with ramping production and it could well be that between everything, there's a reason you won't see TVs in 2016, but I'm pretty sanguine that if there's a TV customer for YIELDjet, there'll be material to make OLEDs on it.

And without speaking for Kateeva, I'd say they likely believe the same thing.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #10930 of 10948 Old 09-16-2014, 06:39 PM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post
Maybe there are issues with ramping production and it could well be that between everything, there's a reason you won't see TVs in 2016, but I'm pretty sanguine that if there's a TV customer for YIELDjet, there'll be material to make OLEDs on it.

And without speaking for Kateeva, I'd say they likely believe the same thing.
As long as they have qualified materials with sufficient lifetime/efficiency, ramping material supply is not going to be a gating factor. If nothing else, printing is going to bring down the amount of material needed by 80% for a given area.
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post #10931 of 10948 Old 09-16-2014, 11:56 PM
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Well I can tell Wizz and I have very different tastes. This has nothing to do with being a 'perfectionist', but rather seeing things differently. No right or wrong here. Despite the flaws of plasma, I've never seen or owned a consumer/prosumer CRT, that could match the overall PQ of the best latter gen plasmas.

This doesn't even address the lack of a cinematic experience with CRTs.
We're actually not that different in that regard. I NEVER watch movies on my CRT. It is way too small for that purpose. I use it primarily for gaming because it offers the ideal combination of zero input lag and perfect motion resolution. Second best black level performance doesn't hurt either - although OLED has finally beaten it on that measure. To hit the same black levels without crushing dark details would require some external gamma compensation with my CRT.

tgm1024 is correct that motion is probably the main issue left unsolved in modern displays. We took a giant hit when the flat panel era started and have never recovered to the same level of performance. You don't really need any fancy tests to prove it. Just play your favorite 60 fps content and pause it. If you see additional detail compared to when it was moving, you're losing motion resolution. It's a very obvious difference if you have a CRT next to any other display type.

Because of limitations with 24fps content, there is nothing anyone can do to make that look perfect. If that's your primary source of content, then I would not worry about motion resolution with most modern displays.
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post #10932 of 10948 Old 09-17-2014, 12:00 AM
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As long as they have qualified materials with sufficient lifetime/efficiency, ramping material supply is not going to be a gating factor. If nothing else, printing is going to bring down the amount of material needed by 80% for a given area.
We are in violent agreement.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #10933 of 10948 Old 09-17-2014, 06:43 AM
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DisplayMate posted their Samsung Galaxy Note 4 screen review:
http://www.displaymate.com/Galaxy_Note4_ShootOut_1.htm

I'm impressed by the high rate by which Samsung SDI has improved their OLED technology.
It's a shame that they don't have a public plan to get back to large screen OLEDs with their technology.
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post #10934 of 10948 Old 09-17-2014, 07:35 AM
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We are in violent agreement.
Does that mean you throw things when you 'really' agree with someone.
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holy matrimony batman
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post #10936 of 10948 Old 09-17-2014, 12:55 PM
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As long as they have qualified materials with sufficient lifetime/efficiency, ramping material supply is not going to be a gating factor. If nothing else, printing is going to bring down the amount of material needed by 80% for a given area.
Well, there is a lot of bad stuff surrounding OLED soluble material production. One needs hydroxyphenyls and butanones (whose production of course will be outsourced to Mexico as always) be so pure to able to make OLED materials that it is so pure that it allows a possibility of turning Heroin into hydromorphone (more potent and way more addictive and Merck or UDC can't afford to have Zogenix reputation) hence you have FDA and DEA all up your ass plus you run the risk of theft or illegal sales. Then of course you have to work with very high octane benzenes (which are highly explosive and flammable), plus you have to have an airtight environment to make some singles.


But howbeit I agree that once there is enough demand for it Merck and UDC and others shall rise up to the challenge.

....

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post #10937 of 10948 Old 09-17-2014, 01:08 PM
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Does that mean you throw things when you 'really' agree with someone.
If you come, maybe we can find an LCD dumping ground and throw a bunch of those around (with safety gear on, of course), to express our hope that era comes to an end!
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There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #10938 of 10948 Old 09-17-2014, 01:09 PM
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But howbeit I agree that once there is enough demand for it Merck and UDC and others shall rise up to the challenge.
Good to know slacker (and maybe a teeny bit of me) has fixed your "broken record."

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #10939 of 10948 Old 09-17-2014, 02:37 PM
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Because of limitations with 24fps content, there is nothing anyone can do to make that look perfect. If that's your primary source of content, then I would not worry about motion resolution with most modern displays.
Folks keep saying that. I don't know about that. My Plasma's motion looks better than my LCd's motion. Motion interpolation is turned off on my european 100hz LCd (no fake frames for me while watching 24fps). LCd motion is good enough but it is not like ''not worry''. I am not convinced that 24fps looks ok on current OLEDs either.
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post #10940 of 10948 Old Yesterday, 08:26 AM
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LG: OLED TVS CAN BECOME CHEAPER THAN LCD TVS

By the time LG hits 95% yields, the company should be able to produce OLED TVs at lower production costs than LCD TVs - if everything goes according to plan that is. This kind of optimism leads LG to believe that in about three years from now sales of OLED TVs and LCD TVs will be 50/50.

http://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php...&id=1411039923
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^ ^ Artwood will be happy if this is what happens. He may yet escape the apocalyptic horror of an LCD only world.
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post #10942 of 10948 Old Yesterday, 08:44 AM
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^ ^ Artwood will be happy if this is what happens. He may yet escape the apocalyptic horror of an LCD only world.
No, I think he'll be miserable. 99% of what he's spoken about for years has been centered on what won't happen. He'll need his day job back.

Grow milkweed. The Monarch Butterfly requires it, and its numbers are dwindling fast.
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post #10943 of 10948 Old Yesterday, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by ynotgoal View Post
LG: OLED TVS CAN BECOME CHEAPER THAN LCD TVS

By the time LG hits 95% yields, the company should be able to produce OLED TVs at lower production costs than LCD TVs - if everything goes according to plan that is. This kind of optimism leads LG to believe that in about three years from now sales of OLED TVs and LCD TVs will be 50/50.

http://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php...&id=1411039923
This seems to be a campaign by LG to explain the recent price increase on the 4K TVs:

"Later this year, LG’s new ultra-modern production facilities will start operating, and by that time LG will be able to produce larger and cheaper OLED displays. The plant is currently in a testing phase, which is why we are seeing LG slowly roll out its first 4K OLED TVs at the moment."

Everything I have read has said that the 4K panels would only be produced in M2, and if it is not in production yet (but only 'testing phase') that means that despite LGs desire to launch the 4K products, they don't yet have any to sell.

Also, everything I have read pointed to M2 being up an running 'in Q3' (which ends in less than 2 weeks), so the reference to 'start operating' 'later this year' suggests there have been delays in getting M2 up and running...

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post #10944 of 10948 Old Yesterday, 02:38 PM
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By the time LG hits 95% yields, the company should be able to produce OLED TVs at lower production costs than LCD TVs - if everything goes according to plan that is.
So, since it never has with any display tech, and certainly not with OLED, let's assume a couple of things:

1) It will take longer than LG hopes.
2) There's a good chance that OLED will never meaningfully eclipse LCD on production costs and might be fortunate to reach parity. Because, again, "everything" rarely goes according to plan.
3) Someday, parity will be good enough.

Quote:
This kind of optimism leads LG to believe that in about three years from now sales of OLED TVs and LCD TVs will be 50/50.
So, I assume they mean for LG itself.

Because clearly there is not any chance they mean the TV industry, unless they mean to be 100% wrong.

Even for LG, this is a very, very aggressive target. LG sells ~30 million TVs a year (perhaps 35). To get to 15 million annually in 2017 from the <1 million they will sell in 2015 is more than a "big, hairy audacious goal". It's close to nigh impossible. That's 4 "doublings" in two years.

I wish them luck.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #10945 of 10948 Old Yesterday, 08:05 PM
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OLED costs vs LCD costs (from a generally pessimistic column)

Quote:
First, OLEDs are ridiculously difficult to make. OLEDs need four or five times more transistors than LCDs (LCDs for TVs have one transistor for each red, green and blue dot, OLEDs have as many as five). That means an UltraHD OLED TV has around 40 million transistors – around eight times the number of Intel’s original Pentium chip!

Furthermore, those transistors have to be made of very high grade materials. On an LCD, the transistor doesn’t have to carry the energy for the image, just control a switch in front of the backlight, so can be low quality. On an OLED, all the energy for the image has to go through the transistor cluster, so it has to be much higher quality.
http://www.display-central.com/subsc.../dd-12th-sept/

It would be useful to have a parts budget---just for starters. Then comes questions of panel yields etc....
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post #10946 of 10948 Old Yesterday, 08:20 PM
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So, since it never has with any display tech, and certainly not with OLED, let's assume a couple of things:

1) It will take longer than LG hopes.
2) There's a good chance that OLED will never meaningfully eclipse LCD on production costs and might be fortunate to reach parity. Because, again, "everything" rarely goes according to plan.
3) Someday, parity will be good enough.



So, I assume they mean for LG itself.

Because clearly there is not any chance they mean the TV industry, unless they mean to be 100% wrong.

Even for LG, this is a very, very aggressive target. LG sells ~30 million TVs a year (perhaps 35). To get to 15 million annually in 2017 from the <1 million they will sell in 2015 is more than a "big, hairy audacious goal". It's close to nigh impossible. That's 4 "doublings" in two years.

I wish them luck.

Unless LG is blowing smoke, even 'half of LG TVs' doesn't make any sense.

'Half of LG shipments of same-sized TVs' may begin to make some sense. From the current lineup, that would mean 50/50 for 55" and 65" and 77" TVs. I have no idea how many 55" + 65" + 77" LED/LCD TVs LG is shipping this year, but I suspect it is a fraction of those 30 million (1/4? 1/5th? even less?)
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post #10947 of 10948 Old Yesterday, 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by alfredlordbleep View Post
http://www.display-central.com/subsc.../dd-12th-sept/

It would be useful to have a parts budget---just for starters. Then comes questions of panel yields etc....
Yeah, well put. It's hard to take much of this seriously....

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Unless LG is blowing smoke, even 'half of LG TVs' doesn't make any sense.

'Half of LG shipments of same-sized TVs' may begin to make some sense. From the current lineup, that would mean 50/50 for 55" and 65" and 77" TVs. I have no idea how many 55" + 65" + 77" LED/LCD TVs LG is shipping this year, but I suspect it is a fraction of those 30 million (1/4? 1/5th? even less?)
OK, while I think LG is just talking gibberish, I like the way you're thinking, too.

Half of "things in the categories where we ship OLEDs that are also branded by us" starts to smack of plausible.

Anything else does, indeed, some absurd.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
Unless LG is blowing smoke, even 'half of LG TVs' doesn't make any sense.

'Half of LG shipments of same-sized TVs' may begin to make some sense. From the current lineup, that would mean 50/50 for 55" and 65" and 77" TVs.
Yes, this is my guess as well. However I don't believe there is anything similar to an "honest mistake" in marketing. I don't think there is an honest anything in marketing. I think they're leaving themselves a lawyer-esque out if they are called upon to produce numbers at some point.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post
OK, while I think LG is just talking gibberish, I like the way you're thinking, too.

Half of "things in the categories where we ship OLEDs that are also branded by us" starts to smack of plausible.

Anything else does, indeed, some absurd.
Seems that way.

Grow milkweed. The Monarch Butterfly requires it, and its numbers are dwindling fast.
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