OLED TVs: Technology Advancements Thread - Page 376 - AVS Forum
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post #11251 of 11271 Old 10-19-2014, 09:26 PM
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^^^ buying a product definitely affects my objectivity. I become hyper critical
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post #11252 of 11271 Old 10-20-2014, 07:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
There will always be one or two with superhuman vision. For the vast majority of people, this is simply a non-issue, certainly at 12'! More 'under the microscope' stuff. The only time I can recall being cognizant of SDE was on my first Fujitsu plasma. That's was not a full HD display, and there it wasn't overly difficult to see the SDE.

I would also say that certainly a guy like this must also have issues with SDE on other displays, not just the OLED. SDE is not exactly a new phenomena that's been discussed on AVS.
I certainly think you are right about SDE being a non-issue for the vast majority of viewers.

Though we (especially us AVSers) can become more sensitive to some display issues over time.

My ED Panny plasma used to just marginally bother me in terms of pixel structure from my regular viewing distance. Once 1080p plasmas came on the scene the SDE seemed for all practical purposes "solved" for me.
I remember some anti-flat panel folks, especially owners of CRT RPTVS as I remember, complaining of SDE, even on the 1080p panels. To me this had my inner eye-roll activated. I had a hard time believing anyone was so sensitive to SDE as to actually reject 1080p plasmas over it.

Like I've mentioned before here: now that I've lived with an essentially invisible pixel structure (JVC projector with E-shift) for years, SDE now sticks out to me like a sore thumb on the typical 1080p flat panel, especially when I try to get anywhere near to get some immersion. It really does intrude, making the picture look a bit more crude to me. That unfortunately includes the OLEDs I've viewed. And strangely enough, when I move close to the 4K flat panels to start getting the type of field of view expected to benefit 4K viewing, I even start noticing the extremely fine pixel structure in those displays! (Certainly not from the viewing distance I'd use for a 1080p display, though).

This goes against my expectations I had years back. Live and learn. (Or live long enough, and you pick up new AV curses...)
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post #11253 of 11271 Old 10-23-2014, 06:00 PM
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More on this 'Blue Light is Harmful' story: http://global.ofweek.com/news/LCD-TV...OLED-TVs-19986


'An article on blue light published by Harvard Medical School in May 2012 said, “Research shows that the exposure to blue light at night may contribute to cancer, diabetes, heart disease, and obesity, in addition to insomnia.”'
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post #11254 of 11271 Old 10-23-2014, 10:47 PM
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^^^ I'm doomed.
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post #11255 of 11271 Old Yesterday, 03:42 AM
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I have a good one, too it goes like this (though I wholeheartedly recommend to pop a brew before reading it to see it in the favorable light) :


A man walks into the bar and sits his ass on the barstool next to a real hottie.


Then he strikes up a conversation, buys her a drink and sweettalks her into ditching the scene and going back to his place.


When they arrive at his place they start makin' out, undressing and mollycoddling and when the girl pulls down her undies dude freaks out, jumps right off the bed and starts hyperventilatin'.


The girl asks him what's wrong and Dude yells out: you don't have a dick that's what's wrong!


But messing around aside LG is so full of shît that it's not even funny. Human body has very good protection mechanisms in place to counter effects of low frequency UV and high frequency blue light i.e nonionizing radiation. In fact only X-ray grade frequencies (ionizing radiation) can circumvent human anti-radiation protection mechanisms and extremes like super high frequency black hole grade gamma rays will melt your face right off in a few seconds.

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post #11256 of 11271 Old Yesterday, 06:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
More on this 'Blue Light is Harmful' story: http://global.ofweek.com/news/LCD-TV...OLED-TVs-19986


'An article on blue light published by Harvard Medical School in May 2012 said, “Research shows that the exposure to blue light at night may contribute to cancer, diabetes, heart disease, and obesity, in addition to insomnia.”'
Is this because people who don't exercise but sit all day in front of displays are more prone to cancer, diabetes, heart disease and obesity in addition to insomnia?

I really question the causal relationships implied by some of these things.

Besides, the article itself is sloppy: The quote you get above is referenced from the source this way: "An article on blue light published by Harvard Medical School in May 2012 said [...]" with no link to the article.
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Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent. Unless, of course, it's to keep someone from creating a phone video in portrait mode, in which case it's a pretty good first step. Portrait mooks: KNOCK IT OFF.
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post #11257 of 11271 Old Yesterday, 06:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post
Is this because people who don't exercise but sit all day in front of displays are more prone to cancer, diabetes, heart disease and obesity in addition to insomnia?

I really question the causal relationships implied by some of these things.
.
I firmly with all my heart believe that you are onto something here with because people who don't exercise but sit all day in front of displays are more prone to cancer, diabetes, heart disease and obesity in addition to insomnia

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post #11258 of 11271 Old Yesterday, 06:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post
Is this because people who don't exercise but sit all day in front of displays are more prone to cancer, diabetes, heart disease and obesity in addition to insomnia?

I really question the causal relationships implied by some of these things.

Besides, the article itself is sloppy: The quote you get above is referenced from the source this way: "An article on blue light published by Harvard Medical School in May 2012 said [...]" with no link to the article.
Then i've got something for ya
The effects of blue light on ocular health (Elaine Kitchel, M.Ed. American printing House for The Blind).
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post #11259 of 11271 Old Yesterday, 07:23 AM
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post
Then i've got something for ya
The effects of blue light on ocular health (Elaine Kitchel, M.Ed. American printing House for The Blind).
Most modern LED backlights are made from a combination of a blue and yellow phosphor thus canceling out most of the bad effects of near UV. What I'm saying is don't let them get your head all screwed up with fear-mongering
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post #11260 of 11271 Old Yesterday, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stas3098 View Post
Most modern LED backlights are made from a combination of a blue and yellow phosphor thus canceling out most of the bad effects of near UV. What I'm saying is don't let them get your head all screwed up with fear-mongering
Seems to me that LED LCd TVs from the start had blue led's with yellow phosphors They probably are talking about blue light wavelengths from the TV reaching your eyes.
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post #11261 of 11271 Old Yesterday, 12:21 PM
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The Harvard Medical School study surmises that blue light upsets circadian rhythms, disturbing sleep but more importantly disrupting the release of melatonins, without which you could have the health problems they allude to.
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post #11262 of 11271 Old Yesterday, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post
Seems to me that LED LCd TVs from the start had blue led's with yellow phosphors They probably are talking about blue light wavelengths from the TV reaching your eyes.
Well, if we are talking about eyes your lenses will prevent most of the harmful wavelengths from reaching your retina and LED doesn't use any deep blue or UV that's why they are harmless to the eyes. LED's blue is mostly 450-460nm which is harmless by any stretch of imagination even at 1000 nits.


People in these studies simply manipulate the facts by calling 350nm (350nm is harmful to the eye even at very low intensities, because it doesn't get absorbed and it builds up on the retina) blue which is blue in their classification but it is not blue in LED classification (450nm).


http://www.cresttech.com.au/led_info_wavelength.html

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post #11263 of 11271 Old Yesterday, 03:45 PM
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post #11264 of 11271 Old Yesterday, 10:03 PM
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I've been reading through the transcript of the recent LGD earnings call here: http://seekingalpha.com/article/2587...p=qanda&l=last


Where I found this tidbit:


"The first question will be provided by Andrew Abrams from JG Capital. Please go ahead, sir.
Andrew Abrams - JG Capital
Hi. Thank you for taking my questions. First, I was just trying to get a little color on the status of the OLED fabs. I'm assuming that you're still producing TVs on the pilot line. Is that correct? And also, when would you expect the new gen-8 line to start taking over some of that production capability?
Hee Yeon Kim - Head of IR Department
As we continue to comment, we will add additional OLED production base at the end of this year. There might be a similar scale at around 6K on top of the 8K. So this is our schedule.
And then if our production [indiscernible] improvement [indiscernible] we will add more 20K at the end of next year. That's our plan. And all the progress is in line with our original plan."


So if we take this at face value, it means they will have only the 8K half-Gen8-sheet M1 pilot capacity until the end of this year, M2 will be ramped to a first phase of 6000 full Gen8 sheets by the end of this year, and then (after whatever indiscernible improvements are achieved) will be ramped with an additional 20K sheets per month to the full capacity of 26,000 sheets per month by the end of 2015.


If LG will truly only be running M2 at 6000-sheet phase I capacity through 2015, that equates to a maximum of 460,000 55" OLEDs from M2 in 2015...
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post #11265 of 11271 Old Today, 12:24 AM
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"By the end of 2015" doesn't mean "at the very end of 2015."

I may be confused by your math.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #11266 of 11271 Old Today, 05:55 AM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
I've been reading through the transcript of the recent LGD earnings call here: http://seekingalpha.com/article/2587...p=qanda&l=last

If LG will truly only be running M2 at 6000-sheet phase I capacity through 2015, that equates to a maximum of 460,000 55" OLEDs from M2 in 2015...
The transcript also makes it sound like they will be running the full 8K that is currently in place which would give them an unyielded capacity of about a million 55" televisions next year.

My understanding is that they are upgrading some of the M1 equipment on the vapour deposition side to allow it to match the efficiency of the M2 line. That would likely explain why we are seeing shortages on all of the current models as any issues they are facing are hitting both lines.
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post #11267 of 11271 Old Today, 01:02 PM
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The transcript also makes it sound like they will be running the full 8K that is currently in place which would give them an unyielded capacity of about a million 55" televisions next year.
Yeah, the 8K available from M1 pilot line has always been a bit of a mystery. That line is not dedicated to OLED TV - they are manufacturing other OLED products on it. So it is difficult to know what capacity is dedicated to OLED TV production.

M1 is half Gen8 sheet, so only 3 55" OLEDs per half sheet.

8000 half-sheets per month would translate to 38,400 55" OLEDs per month, and there is no way LG has produced even a quarter of that level on an ongoing basis.



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My understanding is that they are upgrading some of the M1 equipment on the vapour deposition side to allow it to match the efficiency of the M2 line. That would likely explain why we are seeing shortages on all of the current models as any issues they are facing are hitting both lines.
Making changes in the one line that has been stable before the new line has been stabilized sounds like a pretty bone-headed move, but what do I know Maybe they think that cutting off the flow of products will increase demand

You seem to have a pretty deep knowledge of what is going on at the manufacturing level - I had understood that LG planned to only manufacture 4K OLEDs (along with 1080p OLEDs) on M2 (and only 1080p OLEDs on M1) but with this upgrading of M1, I'm curious whether that has changed - do you know if they will be manufacturing 4K OLEDs on M1 (despite the inefficiency, especially for 65")?

What is your overall sense as to whether things are unfolding 'as planned' versus having to revise the plan to adjust to some bumps in the road?

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post #11268 of 11271 Old Today, 01:50 PM
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Yeah, the 8K available from M1 pilot line has always been a bit of a mystery. That line is not dedicated to OLED TV - they are manufacturing other OLED products on it. So it is difficult to know what capacity is dedicated to OLED TV production.
The M1 line is completely dedicated to televisions. LG has a flexible Gen 4.5 line that is being used for the handset and smartwatch products. The only question with the M1 line is how much capacity they might be using for R&D.
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I had understood that LG planned to only manufacture 4K OLEDs (along with 1080p OLEDs) on M2 (and only 1080p OLEDs on M1) but with this upgrading of M1, I'm curious whether that has changed - do you know if they will be manufacturing 4K OLEDs on M1 (despite the inefficiency, especially for 65")?

What is your overall sense as to whether things are unfolding 'as planned' versus having to revise the plan to adjust to some bumps in the road?
There was an SEC filing a while back that listed both the 55" and 77" models as being manufactured on the M1 line. The M2 line isnt commercial so it didnt have a listing so I dont know if that will also show the 55" and 77" models.

It is possible that the upgraded M1 line would no longer cut sheets in half. If vapour deposition was the limiting factor, then it is possible that an upgraded M1 line will handle full sheets. Just speculation on my part though.

One thing is absolutely certain though, LGD hit a significant unexpected issue with the manufacture of the 2014 models. I am not sure I can ever remember an announced price being increased as happened in the UK. That just doesnt happen. I dont know the source of the issue but the fact that we are seeing shortages across all models suggests that it might be vapour deposition related. I believe that LG indicated that the backplane on the 55EC9300 was the same as for the 55EA9800.

Absent more facts, it is impossible to say how big a deal this is. If they really do ramp the M2 line by the end of the year and bring down prices to the original projections then the delay is a minor issue. Beyond that, and LG has to deal with damage to the OLED brand as well as the fact that matching LCD's pricing is a moving target. It isnt going to get any easier as time goes on.
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post #11269 of 11271 Old Today, 03:22 PM
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Smart, sober analysis as usual.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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Well Amazon has started to get some 55" sets back in stock. The status was 1-2 months for delivery but now it says they have 1 and more are on the way. I know, its just one but they likely also filled some that had been ordered while they were out of stock. They are actually selling some. Anyway, its an improvement and means they aren't completely shut down for an extended period.

Since capacity is constrained by the oxide backplane production equipment they are probably starting to use the new M2 OLED deposition equipment rather than the M1 equipment. Its there, they may as well use it, eh. The added investment they announced a while back is partly to make M2 capacity 34k so it probably means they will update that pilot line OLED deposition equipment this coming year.
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post #11271 of 11271 Old Today, 06:24 PM
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Well Amazon has started to get some 55" sets back in stock. The status was 1-2 months for delivery but now it says they have 1 and more are on the way. I know, its just one but they likely also filled some that had been ordered while they were out of stock. They are actually selling some. Anyway, its an improvement and means they aren't completely shut down for an extended period.

Since capacity is constrained by the oxide backplane production equipment they are probably starting to use the new M2 OLED deposition equipment rather than the M1 equipment. Its there, they may as well use it, eh. The added investment they announced a while back is partly to make M2 capacity 34k so it probably means they will update that pilot line OLED deposition equipment this coming year.
Believe that was a misread. M2 has capacity for up to 26,000 per month which makes a total of 34,000 per month when added to the 8000 per month of the M1 pilot line.

And as far as using the deposition equipment of M2, it's pretty much impossible that they are manufacturing anything using a mixture of equipment from M1 and M2 - they start and complete all of the manufacturing steps within the same facility.

Agree with Slacker, if they are back on track (including both product availability and price reductions) by year-end, this delay is probably no big deal. If this issue ends up dragging into 2015 a tough situation will probably get tougher...
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