OLED TVs: Technology Advancements Thread - Page 401 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #12001 of 12030 Old 04-14-2015, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by stas3098 View Post

The big question here is: where is the dramatic and unexpected price reduction going to come from?

My guess is that it is going to come straight from LGD's pocket.
This seems correct to me.
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It's not like the components costs are going to start radically dropping (because most components like TFTs are similar with LCDs' and LCD's components prices are at the end of their rope as they are) nor material manufacturers, who got into the OLED material thing for high margins, are going to engage into margin-cutting.
We'd been told for a long time oxide at volume was going to cheaper than a-Si at volume. Whether we're (a) supposed to believe that (b) whether that accounts for more than a few $ per display even if we do are different matters.
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On a M2 ramp-up note, I am pretty sure it will be full-blast on by the middle of the year with the noticeable price drop coming in the fall. Also, I am sure LGD is going to have to allow whatever price the street sets for their OLED TVs if they are serious about supplanting LCD. They are going to have to need a near 100 percent sell-through if they are to feel the need for expanding capacity.
That last sentence is again the chicken/egg thing. Without selling out, they can't even justify making more. Without pricing to sell out, they can't possibly sell out.

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Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post

Does whether a low volume can be sold for say $5k, $6k, or $8k in 2015 tell a company that much about how much they could sell millions of units for in 3 years?
I doubt it matters much. I just don't think they sell more than tiny quantities at $8K. So they learn next to nothing about most of everything.

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Originally Posted by slacker711 View Post
A few points.

1) I dont think that OLED's can become the dominant display technology from a unit standpoint with vapour deposition. I think they are on course to become the dominant display technology for the high-end of the television market and for the vast majority of AVS readers. An M3 fab with 75,000 substrate capacity would nearly achieve that goal. The mid-tier of the market will open up as capacity is added and prices follow the cost curve.
So you mean 50+% of this mythical high end. But let's be clear on something. With M2 + M3, that's still 100K substrates a month, 6M TVs a year. The distance between that demand and today's pricing is measured in astronomical units.
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2) LG Display is not run by Elon Musk or Steve Jobs.
And that's partly why LCD will dominate the TV market well into the next decade. (n.b. Of course, so will gas-powered vehicles, but such is the peril of analogies.)
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3) The torrent of capacity that you are looking for will come if/when other vendors start adding OLED capacity. No single vendor would be taking a bet the company kind of risk but the combined addition would get to the kind of numbers that you are looking for.
Waiting... waiting... Waiting on the world to change.
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4) The key indicator of LG Display's cost structure with mature yields is not current 4K pricing but the 55EC9300 which is selling for between $2000 and $3000. That represents the vast majority of their current sales and gives an idea as to the revenue per substrate that will give them an acceptable return. Of course, I am assuming that 4K yields eventually converge with 1080p yields but I dont think that is unreasonable considering the recent commentary on yields and the fact that 4K adds little in additional bill of materials.
So $2000 is somewhere near where they need to be. I'm still very skeptical there's a worldwide market for 6M TVs where the 55-inch models are even $2000, unless you make share assumptions approaching 100% (illogical) and assume expansion of the high-dollar category (also illogical).

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #12002 of 12030 Old 04-21-2015, 12:01 AM
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According to the following report, LG are not selling enough of their OLED TVs to shift the current stock being generated, and this is before M3 is even set up.

I think we're going to have to see a drop in prices shortly, if LG hope to resolve this problem.

http://www.koreaittimes.com/story/47...tv-inventories

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post #12003 of 12030 Old 04-21-2015, 01:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Desk. View Post
According to the following report, LG are not selling enough of their OLED TVs to shift the current stock being generated, and this is before M3 is even set up.

I think we're going to have to see a drop in prices shortly, if LG hope to resolve this problem.

http://www.koreaittimes.com/story/47...tv-inventories

Desk
And to think that one already can get an OLED TV for under 2000 of greenbacks...


www.amazon.com/LG-Electronics-55EA9800-Cinema-Curved/dp/B00E5U3YEK/ref=lp_6463520011_1_2?s=tv&ie=UTF8&qid=1429596456& sr=1-2

....
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post #12004 of 12030 Old 04-21-2015, 01:16 AM
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I don't know if you heard it yet or not, but Apple officially contracted the following companies: JOLED (tablets), Samsung (phones/tablets) and LG(wearables/phones) to produce OLED displays for them. 2016 is the year when first OLED apple phones will be released.


All the displays will be produced using the shadow-mask RGB LTPS (Universal display) technology.


By 2020, it is thought that OLED will supplant LCD in phones and tablets.


http://www.eweek.com/mobile/samsung-...for-apple.html


http://www.bidnessetc.com/40237-appl...inch-ipad-pro/

....

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post #12005 of 12030 Old 04-21-2015, 01:23 AM
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Originally Posted by stas3098 View Post
I don't know if you heard it yet or not, but Apple officially contracted the following companies: JOLED (tablets), Samsung (phones/tablets) and LG(wearables/phones) to produce OLED displays for them. 2016 is the year when first OLED apple phones will be released.
And this is false.
Notably this rumor contains no mentions of Samsung producing any kinds of OLEDs for Apple.
Notably, this article is pure gibberish. It starts out talking about Oxide TFT LCD, magically equates that with OLED (not even close) and then goes totally off the rails.

Apple may be moving to OLED screens for the iPhone in 2016, but there is no evidence of this at this time. Nor is there any evidence that there is enough of a supply chain to make this possible. If it's happening, it's happening in a very quiet way. It might be limited to the phablet sizes only. It might be nothing but a rumor.

Apple will sell 200+ million iPhones next year. No one on earth has remotely close to the spare capacity needed to make that many OLED screens.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #12006 of 12030 Old 04-21-2015, 07:20 AM
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Hah, if you read the recent comments the EA is out of stock and the vendor is (secretly?) unloading 55EC9300's for 2k. Not bad.
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post #12007 of 12030 Old 04-21-2015, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Desk. View Post
According to the following report, LG are not selling enough of their OLED TVs to shift the current stock being generated, and this is before M3 is even set up.

I think we're going to have to see a drop in prices shortly, if LG hope to resolve this problem.

http://www.koreaittimes.com/story/47...tv-inventories

Desk
Fry' had a special 1-day sale on the 55EC9300 for an unbeatably good price yesterday (check the OLED deals Forum for details - well under $2000). That was an offer I could not pass up, but by the time I got there, they had sold out (as had the Fry's inventory in the entire Bay Area). The manager told me they would not be carrying the 55EC9300 any more and wanted to flush remaining inventory in advance of the new 4K OLEDs.

I agree with you - I think we are going to see drops on the 55" and 65" 4K OLEDs shortly...
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post #12008 of 12030 Old 04-21-2015, 11:40 PM
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According to this report, LG has cut OLED production estimates to 500K for this year (down from 600K). They also mention 4K yields have fallen short of expectations.

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According to multiple industry officials on the 20th, LG Display has recently cut down productions for the OLED TV panel partially. (LGD had originally planned from last year to produce 742000 OLED TV panels this year, but this fell to 650000 and then to 500000 at the beginning of the year, which has recently fallen again to below 500000.)

There are two reasons why LG Display decided to make production adjustments. They are low market demand for the FHD OLED panel that had raised yields to a high level, and the increase in the charge of stock due to this. It has become especially hard for them to put up a differentiated value as they have lost in the price competition with the UHD LCD TV adopting the Quantum Dot(QD) film.

An official who is familiar with the inside affairs of LG Display said, “FHD OLED yields are as high as that of the LCD panel, but it is troubling how UHD OLED yields fall short of our expectations. The overall production plan has fallen as the production proportion of UHD OLED, which has a relatively low yield, was expanded. If LG Display secures the UHD OLED TV panel yield at a 70~80% rate this year, we are planning on increasing investment nearly double the amount of current output next year.”

LG Display has been building the 8th generation(2200×2500㎜) WRGB M2 line since 2012 in addition to the existing M1, for the expansion of the OLED business. The M2 line’s panel production goal is 26000 sheets per month, and started operating a 8000 sheet-scale portion in advance from last year.

LG Display had announced their plans to produce diverse large area UHD OLED panels including 55·65·77 inch-sized ones at the M2 line, but decided to concentrate on the 55 inch UHD OLED TV panel production because 65·77 inch-sized TVs are too expensive.

An industry official said, “If LG Display’s UHD OLED TV becomes firmly rooted in the market this year, other competing companies must also react to OLED TV or quickly start 8K UHD LCD panel production. We are at an important crossroads this year, where the mid-and-long-term winner will be determined.”
More details at the link: http://global.ofweek.com/news/LGD-ad...e-panels-28203
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post #12009 of 12030 Old 04-21-2015, 11:52 PM
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LG cuts 2015 production goal to 500,000 due to low demand for 1080p OLED sets, and focuses efforts on increasing 4K OLED yields...

http://english.etnews.com/20150422200001

Interestingly, they quote some unnamed source as saying that 1080p OLED yields are now the same as LCD...

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An official who is familiar with the inside affairs of LG Display said, “FHD OLED yields are as high as that of the LCD panel, but it is troubling how UHD OLED yields fall short of our expectations. The overall production plan has fallen as the production proportion of UHD OLED, which has a relatively low yield, was expanded. If LG Display secures the UHD OLED TV panel yield at a 70~80% rate this year, we are planning on increasing investment nearly double the amount of current output next year.”
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post #12010 of 12030 Old 04-22-2015, 02:46 AM
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If the yields are equivalent to lcd on the fhd set, is there a chance they will produce a budget, bare bones fhd oled that is 55 inches or smaller in the near future, I'd be happy with a 50 or a 47
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post #12011 of 12030 Old 04-22-2015, 04:18 AM
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LG Display reiterated their outlook for a 600,000 unit target this year and 1.5 million next year.

http://www.globalpost.com/article/65...urns-profit-q1

Quote:
In its outlook for organic light-emitting diode (OLED) TV panels, LG Display said it expects to sell 600,000 units this year, with the figure to more than double to 1.5 million units in 2016.
LG Display has pushed for production of the premium-line TV panels, but relatively high costs as opposed to a low yield have been a drag on mass production.
Song Young-kwon, a LG Display executive, said at an IR session that the company hopes to bring good results this year with the OLEDs.
"Last year was a year when we convinced ourselves with the OLED technology. This year will be the one when we can show our belief through better yields," he said.
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post #12012 of 12030 Old 04-22-2015, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by x3sphere View Post
According to this report, LG has cut OLED production estimates to 500K for this year (down from 600K). They also mention 4K yields have fallen short of expectations.



More details at the link: http://global.ofweek.com/news/LGD-ad...e-panels-28203
Production for 2015 has fallen to 'below 500,000.'

Yields on 55" FHD good but market demand is low.

Focusing on 55" UHD because 65" and 77" are 'too expensive'

Yields on 55" UHD below 70%.

If they can get UHD yields above 70%, they will invest in additional capacity by the end of this year.

Suddenly the price increase and low availability of 65" OLEDs snaps into focus...

Oh, and the 'increase in the charge of stock' of 55" FHD OLEDs due to high yields and low market demand is going to translate into lower prices for the 55EC9300 soon...

It is very strange to see the same report make reference to the fact that the 55" FHD OLEDs have 'lost in the price competition with the UHD LCD TV adopting the Quantum Dot (QD) Film' and yet they are clinging to hope that the UHD OLEDs will become 'firmly rooted in the market this year' forcing competitors to 'quickly start 8K UHD LCD panel production.'

Hope springs eternal
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post #12013 of 12030 Old 04-22-2015, 01:20 PM
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If yield for 55 HD is now on par with LCD, maybe LG should flood the market with lower priced 55 HD (well, flood-ish). Make it the new value best buy.

Don't sell the resolution, sell the picture. Sell the fact that it is OLED. Ask WWSJD. Well, Steve Jobs would sell the sh** out of it.

I get frustrated watching LG. Can't help feeling they are wasting their window of OLED exclusivity and display tech supremacy. Maybe they can't do something about the yield and production hiccups but they can do something on the pricing and marketing front.
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post #12014 of 12030 Old 04-22-2015, 02:18 PM
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If yield for 55 HD is now on par with LCD, maybe LG should flood the market with lower priced 55 HD (well, flood-ish). Make it the new value best buy.

Don't sell the resolution, sell the picture. Sell the fact that it is OLED. Ask WWSJD. Well, Steve Jobs would sell the sh** out of it.

I get frustrated watching LG. Can't help feeling they are wasting their window of OLED exclusivity and display tech supremacy. Maybe they can't do something about the yield and production hiccups but they can do something on the pricing and marketing front.
I totally agree with you. While they are getting the UHD OLED yields up to an acceptable, LG could sell a boatload of 55" FHD OLED TVs.

Fry's proved on Monday that when the price of the 55EC9300 drops to $1500, demand skyrockets (and customers are literally lining up outside the door). If LG can truly approach price parity with high-end 55" 1080p LED/LCDs, LG should gain market share and mindshare by selling as many as they can as fast as they can...

Stopping production because customers would prefer to spend $3500 on a 65" UHD LED/LCD rather than a 55" FHD OLED makes no sense.
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post #12015 of 12030 Old 04-22-2015, 03:09 PM
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I totally agree with you. While they are getting the UHD OLED yields up to an acceptable, LG could sell a boatload of 55" FHD OLED TVs.

Fry's proved on Monday that when the price of the 55EC9300 drops to $1500, demand skyrockets (and customers are literally lining up outside the door). If LG can truly approach price parity with high-end 55" 1080p LED/LCDs, LG should gain market share and mindshare by selling as many as they can as fast as they can...

Stopping production because customers would prefer to spend $3500 on a 65" UHD LED/LCD rather than a 55" FHD OLED makes no sense.

Beginning to sound like down the tubes we go. Wish I could say that I haven't seen similar spirals begin before. At least I'll be able to (hopefully) pick up a 77" on closeout like I did with my kuro and Sharp elite.
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post #12016 of 12030 Old 04-22-2015, 04:18 PM
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I totally agree with you. While they are getting the UHD OLED yields up to an acceptable, LG could sell a boatload of 55" FHD OLED TVs.

Fry's proved on Monday that when the price of the 55EC9300 drops to $1500, demand skyrockets (and customers are literally lining up outside the door). If LG can truly approach price parity with high-end 55" 1080p LED/LCDs, LG should gain market share and mindshare by selling as many as they can as fast as they can...

Stopping production because customers would prefer to spend $3500 on a 65" UHD LED/LCD rather than a 55" FHD OLED makes no sense.
I wonder how sustainable that would be, though. Is it really profitable? Not likely. Is there a ton of demand at $1500 for a 1080p TV? Also probably not likely after satisfying the knowledgeable videophile sector.

Does this buy them solutions to any long-term problems? I don't really see it.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #12017 of 12030 Old 04-22-2015, 04:25 PM
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I totally agree with you. While they are getting the UHD OLED yields up to an acceptable, LG could sell a boatload of 55" FHD OLED TVs.

Fry's proved on Monday that when the price of the 55EC9300 drops to $1500, demand skyrockets (and customers are literally lining up outside the door). If LG can truly approach price parity with high-end 55" 1080p LED/LCDs, LG should gain market share and mindshare by selling as many as they can as fast as they can...

Stopping production because customers would prefer to spend $3500 on a 65" UHD LED/LCD rather than a 55" FHD OLED makes no sense.
There still has not been a competitively priced flat OLED. How many consumers are waiting for that? I suspect that there are more than LG thinks, and that demand for OLED can't really be gauged until such a display is released.
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post #12018 of 12030 Old 04-22-2015, 08:44 PM
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I have no idea why an article using sources received more attention than the one with direct statements from LGD, but for the record, they reiterated their 600,000 unit target for this year and 1.5 million for next year. Their comment was that any reduction in that target will be because of mix shift rather than a shortfall in demand.

Take that for whatever it is worth, but LGD continues to push those numbers to their investors....though it will obviously take pricing reductions on the 4K units to reach anywhere near those kind of shipment numbers.


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post #12019 of 12030 Old 04-22-2015, 10:49 PM
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I have no idea why an article using sources received more attention than the one with direct statements from LGD, but for the record, they reiterated their 600,000 unit target for this year and 1.5 million for next year. Their comment was that any reduction in that target will be because of mix shift rather than a shortfall in demand.

Take that for whatever it is worth, but LGD continues to push those numbers to their investors....though it will obviously take pricing reductions on the 4K units to reach anywhere near those kind of shipment numbers.


Slacker
Has LGD already held their Q1 earnings call and was there any information provided on OLED (in Q&A or whatever)? There have been three quasi-independant sources reporting a build-up of 55" FHD (55EC9300) inventory. Maybe it's telephone and rumor resonance, but it seems to have been orchestrated to coincide with the 55EC9300 price drop to $2500..

The year is now 1/3rd gone. The only sign I have seen of increased demand was when Fry's put out the coupon for $1500 one-day-only-while-supplies-last discount on the 55EC9300.

You think LG is anywhere close to selling 50,000 OLED TV's a month? (Which only gets them to 400,000 for the year if it just starts now ).
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post #12020 of 12030 Old 04-22-2015, 11:06 PM
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I wonder how sustainable that would be, though. Is it really profitable? Not likely. Is there a ton of demand at $1500 for a 1080p TV? Also probably not likely after satisfying the knowledgeable videophile sector.

Does this buy them solutions to any long-term problems? I don't really see it.
Slacker is right - if this is all just FUD being spread by industry gossipers, not worth spending too much time on it.

But that being said, if LG truly has reached LCD-level yields on the 55EC9300, they should be able to sell at LCD prices amd not lose their shirt.

It's pretty hard to find a 55" 1080p LED/LCD TV for much over $1000 now so those are obviously being manufactured for less than that.

There are a few 56" 2160p TVs costing around $3000 but they are all pretty new and unclear how many of them are selling. I'd certainly want to spend $2500 on an 55EC9300 before I spent $3000 on a 55" 4K LED/LCD (but spending that much for a 55" TV of any kind just seems nuts ).

If it is true that LG has good enough yields to sell 55EC9300 at prices of $1500-2000 and not lose money, the problem it solves is twofold:

A/ Keeps the factory running so they don't' slip backwards - yields can drop quickly when you don't maintain continuous production

B/ signals momentum and progress - at the moment I have greater confidence that we are going to see the $4000 Vizio R65 this year than that we'll see an attractively-priced 65" flat LG OLED...
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post #12021 of 12030 Old Yesterday, 05:10 AM
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Has LGD already held their Q1 earnings call and was there any information provided on OLED (in Q&A or whatever)? There have been three quasi-independant sources reporting a build-up of 55" FHD (55EC9300) inventory. Maybe it's telephone and rumor resonance, but it seems to have been orchestrated to coincide with the 55EC9300 price drop to $2500..
Yes, LGD reiterated their 600,000 unit target during both their Korean and English conference calls. They did say that any change in the unit target would happen because of a mix shift and not because of demand.

The price drop on the 55EC9300 finally brought the prices at the major chains more in line with the independent retailers. It looks like combination of the price drop and advertising have pushed the range on the Amazon sales rankings from above 5000 to somewhere below 3000. They ultimately need to bring down pricing on the 4K units though. The UK sites have talked about the new 55" 4K model hitting similar price points (presumably pre price cut) as the EC9300.

The yields on 1080p OLED's look very good but they are going to have to repeat the same process of increasing yields in 4K. That will be the determining factor on hitting the above targets and the timing of the decision on an M3 fab.
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post #12022 of 12030 Old Yesterday, 05:14 AM
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But that being said, if LG truly has reached LCD-level yields on the 55EC9300, they should be able to sell at LCD prices amd not lose their shirt.
I should also say I doubt that they have actually hit LCD yield levels. The number that they gave out at a conference at the beginning of April was 80 to 90% and I doubt it has risen to the mid-90's or above in three weeks.

The 55EC9300 debuted last fall with a sticker price of $3500 but was selling for $3000. If the set hits $2000 as the "Best Buy" price by this fall, that would be about the 30% YoY price cuts that Rogo consistently references.
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post #12023 of 12030 Old Yesterday, 10:47 AM
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Yes, LGD reiterated their 600,000 unit target during both their Korean and English conference calls. They did say that any change in the unit target would happen because of a mix shift and not because of demand.

The price drop on the 55EC9300 finally brought the prices at the major chains more in line with the independent retailers. It looks like combination of the price drop and advertising have pushed the range on the Amazon sales rankings from above 5000 to somewhere below 3000. They ultimately need to bring down pricing on the 4K units though. The UK sites have talked about the new 55" 4K model hitting similar price points (presumably pre price cut) as the EC9300.

The yields on 1080p OLED's look very good but they are going to have to repeat the same process of increasing yields in 4K. That will be the determining factor on hitting the above targets and the timing of the decision on an M3 fab.
Just read the transcript myself. You are correct - clear reaffirmation of the 600,000 2015 production target as well as clear statement that UHD OLED yields were 'in line with... (LGD) basic assumption... and track-record.'

Steady as she goes and everything on-track. Seems like a mystery to me but let's see how everything unfolds over the coming quarters.

What is the significance of 'below 5000' to 'below 3000' in terms of Amazon sales rankings?
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Just read the transcript myself. You are correct - clear reaffirmation of the 600,000 2015 production target as well as clear statement that UHD OLED yields were 'in line with... (LGD) basic assumption... and track-record.'

Steady as she goes and everything on-track. Seems like a mystery to me but let's see how everything unfolds over the coming quarters.

What is the significance of 'below 5000' to 'below 3000' in terms of Amazon sales rankings?
Something like 2000. :-P
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Cogito ergo sum makes a fundamental mistake because it ignores the implied existence of the narrator. Descartes might as well have said "A rose is red, therefore I am".
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Something like 2000. :-P
I'be never used Amazon Sales Rankings and don't know how to check it nor what it means.

If it is a useful way to track LG OLED sales progress, I would like to learn but could use some pointers...
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I'be never used Amazon Sales Rankings and don't know how to check it nor what it means.

If it is a useful way to track LG OLED sales progress, I would like to learn but could use some pointers...
I just checked the Amazon TV Top 100 sales rankings and the LG 55EC9300 is ranked 97. Of those priced above $1050, it is the 10th best selling TV on Amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-E...e_2_1266092011
The rankings are updated hourly so it will likely be different when checking again.
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I'be never used Amazon Sales Rankings and don't know how to check it nor what it means.

If it is a useful way to track LG OLED sales progress, I would like to learn but could use some pointers...
The number is simply the ranking for the set within the Electronics category at Amazon. Just search for "Best Sellers Rank" on the page.

http://www.amazon.com/LG-Electronics.../dp/B00KZER5GS

It isnt going to tell me anything about the number of units moved but I find it an interesting way to track the relative popularity of the set over time. The rank was generally between five and ten thousand two months ago but decreased as some of the independent retailers lowered their prices. I also believe that the NCAA advertising had an impact as the rank generally improved since the middle of March.

If you actually click on the best selling rankings for televisions, the 55EC9300 is 97th on the list (vs. ~2800th in the general Electronics category).
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I just checked the Amazon TV Top 100 sales rankings and the LG 55EC9300 is ranked 97. Of those priced above $1050, it is the 10th best selling TV on Amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-E...e_2_1266092011
The rankings are updated hourly so it will likely be different when checking again.
Thanks for the explanation - it's not within the top 80-100 any more.

Aside from how often it is updated, it's important to know over what period it is measuring - daily (24 h), weekly, monthly?
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So as of today, 55EC9300 is the #1 Best Seller for OLED TVs on Amazon
Doesn't really say much though. The field for OLED TV models has only recently been significantly widening, and the 9300 so far has had the longest "real" run.

Cogito ergo sum makes a fundamental mistake because it ignores the implied existence of the narrator. Descartes might as well have said "A rose is red, therefore I am".
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If LG uses glass sheet size 2200x2500 mm in its M2 OLED plant what might be the biggest size two displays stamped on this glass? Half of the glass sheet is either 2200x1250 mm or 2500x1100 mm but which of these is possible? Both??
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