OLED TVs: Technology Advancements Thread - Page 402 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #12031 of 12042 Old 04-24-2015, 11:28 PM
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Originally Posted by irkuck View Post
If LG uses glass sheet size 2200x2500 mm in its M2 OLED plant what might be the biggest size two displays stamped on this glass? Half of the glass sheet is either 2200x1250 mm or 2500x1100 mm but which of these is possible? Both?? Do they stamp four 55 inchers on this sheet?
The M2 fab is a classic 8G fab essentially.

It allows for 6-up production of 55-inch displays because it doesn't require cutting the sheets in half.

A 55-inch display is 1216mm wide, which fits into the width with enough space for edge handling and cutting.

It's 685 mm tall, which fits into a 3-tall format.

What it doesn't do is fit into a half sheet and allow you to make four displays. Period. You would never cut to the 1100 dimension, you'd only get two. Instead, you'd cut the other way and and you'd get three. This is presumably what they'd done with M1, cutting the sheets "early" and getting the same total output.

You can't magically get make displays off of half sheets, however. Basic math should make that clear.

It should similarly be clear that making 65s and 77s is much less efficient. Once you start cutting those sizes out, you get waste that can't be avoided.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #12032 of 12042 Old Yesterday, 03:10 AM
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^Brilliant. My fault I have not expressed clearly what I had in mind. The question was about the biggest size of two displays which would fit onto the LG glass sheet. The size would be then limited by the cut in half, is this the reason why LG is making the 77"?

Another efficient cut for maximizing single display size seems to possible since 6x55" is clearly being done. The cut would be at 2/3 of the height and thus there would be one 110" display and two 55". Glass would be utilized then as in the 6x55" but is such arrangement possible?
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post #12033 of 12042 Old Yesterday, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by irkuck View Post
^Brilliant. My fault I have not expressed clearly what I had in mind. The question was about the biggest size of two displays which would fit onto the LG glass sheet. The size would be then limited by the cut in half, is this the reason why LG is making the 77"?

Another efficient cut for maximizing single display size seems to possible since 6x55" is clearly being done. The cut would be at 2/3 of the height and thus there would be one 110" display and two 55". Glass would be utilized then as in the 6x55" but is such arrangement possible?
No way to mix panel sizes on the same sheet.

Both 3 65" and 2 77" utilize about 2/3 of the panel (meaning 1/3 is wasted).

The 77" 2-up is probably based on stacking 2 along the short 2200mm side of the sheet and if the can manufacture with two stacked along the long 2500mm side of the panel, they should at least be able to manufacture 88" TVs.

If there was no overhead (which there is), the long side of the screen would be the full 2200mm side of the sheet and the result would be a 99" TV.

The fact that Sharp is selling 90" LCD TVs is reason to have confidence that 90" OLEDs being manufactured in 2-up configuration will eventually be possible...
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post #12034 of 12042 Old Yesterday, 01:31 PM
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I have a Fabrication 401 question.

Are these glass substrates for rigid panels only?

Using Artificial Life algorithms, I created a bunch of creatures and let them evolve on my system. Over the years they gained intelligence, a society, and quite a few interesting abilities. However, using the rules from their world, they concluded that I did not exist. So I created a special creature meant to spread the Word about Me with amazing magical abilities that only He had. Went well, until they decided to nail the poor Guy to a tree.
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post #12035 of 12042 Old Yesterday, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by irkuck View Post
^Brilliant. My fault I have not expressed clearly what I had in mind. The question was about the biggest size of two displays which would fit onto the LG glass sheet. The size would be then limited by the cut in half, is this the reason why LG is making the 77"?

Another efficient cut for maximizing single display size seems to possible since 6x55" is clearly being done. The cut would be at 2/3 of the height and thus there would be one 110" display and two 55". Glass would be utilized then as in the 6x55" but is such arrangement possible?
I don't see why it isn't. They don't "pixel pattern" the OLED material so it seems like this could be done. Whether it's efficient/practical is another matter. But technologically, it should be achievable.

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No way to mix panel sizes on the same sheet.
Well, that's not entirely true.
Quote:
Both 3 65" and 2 77" utilize about 2/3 of the panel (meaning 1/3 is wasted).
That, however, is much more true.
Quote:
The 77" 2-up is probably based on stacking 2 along the short 2200mm side of the sheet and if the can manufacture with two stacked along the long 2500mm side of the panel, they should at least be able to manufacture 88" TVs.
The thing is, they can obviously make 110" inch TVs the way irkuck describes. They'd be wasting no more of the sheet than they waste today in the 65s and 77s. And arguably, because the cut actually makes sense, they'd be wasting zero of the sheet, while using the 1/3 they didn't use on a 110" for 2 55s. This sets a theoretical lower bound for the 110 at 4 x 55 plus a yield factor compensator plus a logistic factor compensator plus a "this is a small market" compensator. In short, I actually believe they could someday sell $20,000 110-inch TVs pretty easily if they decide people would buy them.

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I have a Fabrication 401 question.

Are these glass substrates for rigid panels only?
Well, that's trickier to answer. LG has some fascinating "shenanigans" going on that allows them to already make the displays flexible. This involves what is very likely incredibly thin glass on the TVs as the substrate and not plastic, but it seems as though plastic is being used on the smart phones, perhaps a polyimide (which is the direction of the future) with thin-film encapsulation.

Irrespective of that, glass processing is being used by LG today which is then curving the vast majority of the TVs and is planning on launching a TV that will curve and uncurve repeatedly. So, no, glass substrates are not being used for rigid panels only. But LG has talked about how the glass eventually can "leave" the display even if it's used in the creation thereof and then a film-film encapsulation strategy can protect the OLED from air, etc. to preserve longevity.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #12036 of 12042 Old Yesterday, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post


Well, that's not entirely true.

The thing is, they can obviously make 110" inch TVs the way irkuck describes. They'd be wasting no more of the sheet than they waste today in the 65s and 77s. And arguably, because the cut actually makes sense, they'd be wasting zero of the sheet, while using the 1/3 they didn't use on a 110" for 2 55s. This sets a theoretical lower bound for the 110 at 4 x 55 plus a yield factor compensator plus a logistic factor compensator plus a "this is a small market" compensator. In short, I actually believe they could someday sell $20,000 110-inch TVs pretty easily if they decide people would buy them.
Yes, the max I commented on of 88-99" was for a 2-up configuration. The maximum size for a 1-up configuration is 110".

And while the theory of manufacturing 1110" and 2 55" OLED YV panels per sheet is enticing, I suspect it is a logistical nightmare. Among other things, LG would probably start by trying to salvage to 1/3 panel leftovers from manufacturing 3 65" or 2 77" OLEDs to start. For the number of 110" OLEDs they might ever produce, the payoff of solving the logistics issues to try to salvage the leftover panel space from manufacturing a single 110" OLED would be far less compelling than solving those issues to salvage the leftovers when manufacturing 3 65" OLEDs.

These exact same 'wasted sheet' issues exist when manufacturing LCDs - are you aware of any manufacturer like sharp that attempts to salvage the leftovers of their LCD sheets by mixing panels of differing sizes on a single sheet?

By the way, on the subject of LCD, I have another question for you - the largest 1-up size for a 2500mm X 2200mm sheet is just under 113" (assuming no overhead at all, which is not realistic).

So how is Vizio making a 120" LCD?

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post #12037 of 12042 Old Yesterday, 05:20 PM
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^^^ fix the quote. Who said what?

Using Artificial Life algorithms, I created a bunch of creatures and let them evolve on my system. Over the years they gained intelligence, a society, and quite a few interesting abilities. However, using the rules from their world, they concluded that I did not exist. So I created a special creature meant to spread the Word about Me with amazing magical abilities that only He had. Went well, until they decided to nail the poor Guy to a tree.
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post #12038 of 12042 Old Yesterday, 05:40 PM
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^^^ fix the quote. Who said what?
Apologies - fixed...
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post #12039 of 12042 Old Today, 01:34 AM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post


Irrespective of that, glass processing is being used by LG today which is then curving the vast majority of the TVs and is planning on launching a TV that will curve and uncurve repeatedly. So, no, glass substrates are not being used for rigid panels only. But LG has talked about how the glass eventually can "leave" the display even if it's used in the creation thereof and then a film-film encapsulation strategy can protect the OLED from air, etc. to preserve longevity.
Have you any idea of how pigments are treated for production of paint or ink?


And if not it's okay for it is not something that's highly publicized.


Because it is off-topic I am not going to go into gory detail about the aforementioned process. But basically, during the OLED manufacturing process some of the pigment containing oils will have evaporated before the rest of the material solidifies and it's all fine and in good order when you use natural pigments, but when you use pigments which constitute part of a small-molecule OLED which have very little nuturality about them... well, then the vapors coming out of those pigment oils are explosive and only one whiff of contaminated air is enough to poison a dozen of people that's why they can't have these vapors contaminating the air.


Encapsulation has little to do with longevity down the line, but it is very important that oils don't evaporate right after they are deposited.


P.S. These are just inferences based off my experience with the treatment of pigments for fluorescent and phosphorescent materials for LEDs and CCFLs. I am not personally familiar with how LGD does it, but this is what I'd have done in order to avoid explosions and air contamination and prevent pigment evaporation i.e, encapsulation and air-tight production rooms.

....

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post #12040 of 12042 Old Today, 06:44 PM
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Fafrd, this isn't LCD. LCD is laid down as pixels on the substrate and to "mix sizes" would be more logistically challenging.

Because the OLED vapor deposition step isn't pixel based, however, it's less of a logistical challenge to deposit the whole sheet, cut, and then make the rest of the magic happen separately. At least in theory.

Practice? I have no idea.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #12041 of 12042 Old Today, 07:03 PM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post
Fafrd, this isn't LCD. LCD is laid down as pixels on the substrate and to "mix sizes" would be more logistically challenging.

Because the OLED vapor deposition step isn't pixel based, however, it's less of a logistical challenge to deposit the whole sheet, cut, and then make the rest of the magic happen separately. At least in theory.

Practice? I have no idea.
Your saying the color filters are deposited following singulation?

Agree that would make size mixing more practical, but I assumed the entire stack was processed in sheet form and only singulated following completion of all of the processing steps (including color filter).

P.s. Still curious how/where Vizio is manufacturing the 120" panel for the R120 - is there a Gen 9 LCD fab somewhere!??

P.p.s. Found this: http://www.displaysearchblog.com/201...amsung-and-lg/

Sounds like a Gen 10 fab must be getting used to manufacture that 120" panel for Vizio. Either Sharp or possibly Hon Hai if they are in production yet...

P.p.p.s Sounds like it must be Sharp Sakai - found this interesting DARPA presentation on Gen 10 manufacturing: http://arpa-e.energy.gov/sites/defau...PV%20final.pdf

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post #12042 of 12042 Old Today, 11:18 PM
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Your saying the color filters are deposited following singulation?
I'm saying it's possible. It's also the case that given a 110" would have the same size pixels as a 1080p 55", well....
Quote:
Agree that would make size mixing more practical, but I assumed the entire stack was processed in sheet form and only singulated following completion of all of the processing steps (including color filter).
So, anyway... I haven't seen the fab or how it does it's magic. But you could have multiple different color-filter layouts. One for all 55s, one for 65s, one for 77s, one for a 110 and 2 55s... I mean lots of things are possible.
[quote]
P.s. Still curious how/where Vizio is manufacturing the 120" panel for the R120 - is there a Gen 9 LCD fab somewhere!??[/quite]

AFAIK, no.
Quote:
P.p.s. Found this: http://www.displaysearchblog.com/201...amsung-and-lg/

Sounds like a Gen 10 fab must be getting used to manufacture that 120" panel for Vizio. Either Sharp or possibly Hon Hai if they are in production yet...
All Hon Hai did was give Sharp some bailout money to help stave off bankruptcy. And Sharp is still bitter that Foxconn didn't agree to buy shares at some dumb price that they are unlikely to ever trade at again. Sharp still wants that price honored for any future investment even though it's like 2x current market. Non-starter much?
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P.p.p.s Sounds like it must be Sharp Sakai - found this interesting DARPA presentation on Gen 10 manufacturing: http://arpa-e.energy.gov/sites/defau...PV%20final.pdf
Pretty sure that's the only >8G fab running on earth still and perhaps forever using conventional techniques. If we're going to see bigger fabrication, it's likely going to come from some sort of roll-to-roll processing that allows for an 8G (or perhaps a bit more) width and an arbitrary length. If (when?) printable OLED ever becomes real, this becomes an exciting technique though it may prove very difficult to adapt roll-to-roll to Kateeva's nitrogen atmosphere. We'll see.

AVS Forumers continue to wildly overestimate the demand for giant displays. The fact that 8G fabs can easily be adapted to 110" screens means there's a path to larger screens than have ever been sold in any commercial volumes. While I continue to believe the ability to sell said screens for <$10,000 is well within the grasp of existing manufacturing (for LCD, not yet for OLED), I don't believe the demand even at $9999 is especially high. It's clearly far higher than today's demand at many multiples of that. And with OLEDs that are likely to survive the shipping due to flexible substrates, it'll be far more interesting.

Is this a 1 million unit/$10B business someday? We might learn that in 2025 or so.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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