OLED TVs: Technology Advancements Thread - Page 406 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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Old 06-01-2015, 02:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1959Dodge View Post
MIT Professor Vladimir Bulović co-founds QD Vision, Kateeva and Ubiquitous Energy.


Note, the same MIT Professor co-founded both Quantum dot company as well as the Kateeva printer (which supposedly) was going to be used to print "cheaper OLED TVs"


Myself, I think the kind of "ink" that will go in to the Kateeva will be "QD ink" and not "OLED Ink".


Of course , time will tell, but how long have we been hearing about OLED TV's via Kateeva?


I bet we see QD TV's via Kateeva well before we see Kateeva Oleds, particularly since the same individual cofounded both a Quantum Dot Company as well as the Kateeva.


Gary
Well. The guy is one of the founders. Currently he is a Kateeva advisor. Steven van Slyke, the co-inventor of OLED, on the other hand, is Chief Technology Officer of Kateeva..

Printed OLED is the focus of Kateeva. Show me a link which shows that Kateeva is also focussing on printed Quantum Dots.
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Old 06-01-2015, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post
Well. The guy is one of the founders. Currently he is a Kateeva advisor. Steven van Slyke, the co-inventor of OLED, on the other hand, is Chief Technology Officer of Kateeva..

Printed OLED is the focus of Kateeva. Show me a link which shows that Kateeva is also focussing on printed Quantum Dots.

So far this is what I've found, but I can't fine the "whole Article" yet


"www.displayalliance.com/news/tag/avionic


1st

"May 3, 2015 - What the hell are quantum dots, and why do you want them in your next TV? ... It is the first product to emerge from Kateeva's YIELDjet platform, a breakthrough ..."


2nd


"The DuPont and Kateeva cooperation is non-exclusive and manufacturers will not be restricted in their choice of equipment or materials through this effort; it will only aim to increase viable, manufacturing-ready options. The companies expect to provide cross-referenced data for DuPont materials with Kateeva printing equipment."


Samsung bought a Kateeva, last year, (or so the rumours go), I can post links to that if you need it, but just google
Samsung kateeva.


Add to this The report that Samsung "may ditch" Oled in favor of QLED, and if I were a betting man, my bet would be on the QLED.


I suspects we will see a lot more in the next few days.


Gary
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Old 06-01-2015, 04:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1959Dodge View Post

Myself, I think the kind of "ink" that will go in to the Kateeva will be "QD ink" and not "OLED Ink".
I don't.

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Originally Posted by 1959Dodge View Post

Samsung bought a Kateeva, last year,
Invested in... yes. That's all, and it wasn't a rumor.

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Add to this The report that Samsung "may ditch" Oled in favor of QLED, and if I were a betting man, my bet would be on the QLED.
There has never been a demonstration of a workable quantum-dot emissive TV. Not sure how you've concluded a company pursuing OLEDs is suddenly switching to a technology that basically exists only in theory.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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Old 06-02-2015, 06:22 AM
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Originally Posted by 1959Dodge View Post
Myself, I think the kind of "ink" that will go in to the Kateeva will be "QD ink" and not "OLED Ink".
Not a chance. Where did you get this idea from?


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There has never been a demonstration of a workable quantum-dot emissive TV. Not sure how you've concluded a company pursuing OLEDs is suddenly switching to a technology that basically exists only in theory.
Yeah, at one point a few years ago I searched high and wide for even evidence of a lab demo of non-light activated QD emission and never found one. The theory was that you could activate the things by electrons directly and have them excite.

I do understand the reasoning, and I believe it's hardly a crazy idea:

1. QD's absorb and retransmit light at varying frequencies
2. Light is part of the Electro-Magnetic spectrum
3. All things that are part of the EMS can interact directly with anything electro-magnetic in nature, including electrons.

Electrons themselves can also be represented with duality: a wave and a particle. So I'm not completely sure what the hold-up is on this, but it must be significant because there's nothing there.

I would love it if someone actually found a demo of such things, but be warned, googling for it is a nightmare because nearly every link will discuss photon activated QD.

What do you call a Harley that doesn't leak oil?
Out of oil.
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Old 06-02-2015, 02:29 PM
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In OLEDs the gamma rays that get down-converted into visible light can never "escape" from the emitter (in fact OLEDs lose their brightness when they start to produce less gamma rays).

QDs as in TVs would use a lot of toxic material (not that OLEDs don't use toxic materials, but OLEDs are only moderately toxic when they burn due to "oils" (or in other words, solvents which are used to liquify OLED material (which comes in powder form) in order to vaporize it) that tends to become radioactive over time and emit gamma/X rays...

....

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Old 06-02-2015, 04:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stas3098 View Post
In OLEDs the gamma rays that get down-converted into visible light can never "escape" from the emitter (in fact OLEDs lose their brightness when they start to produce less gamma rays).

QDs as in TVs would use a lot of toxic material (not that OLEDs don't use toxic materials, but OLEDs are only moderately toxic when they burn due to "oils" (or in other words, solvents which are used to liquify OLED material (which comes in power form) in order to vaporize it) that tend to become radioactive over time and emit gamma/X rays...
So instead of glowing black levels it'll be us that are glowing. That's a comforting thought. lol
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Old 06-10-2015, 09:18 AM
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Old 06-10-2015, 11:19 AM
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Could Fujifilm's photoresists approach open up the prospect of easier OLED TV production with higher pixel density...?

http://www.techradar.com/news/televi...ng-for-1296371

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Old 06-10-2015, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Desk. View Post
Could Fujifilm's photoresists approach open up the prospect of easier OLED TV production with higher pixel density...?

http://www.techradar.com/news/televi...ng-for-1296371

Desk
That's interesting. Plus side is no filters for rbg.
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Old 06-10-2015, 11:58 AM
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Sounds intriguing, more likely applicable to small screens than big ones, and honestly likely 5 years from meaningfully impacting production if this is at lab stage.

It also sounds slow because photoresists take time to develop and then "wash away" the excess. But that's how backplanes are made so it wouldn't necessarily be much slower than that stage. I suspect it would be the "Herbie" however.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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Old 06-10-2015, 10:45 PM
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Some LGD yield rumors....

http://english.etnews.com/20150611200002

Quote:
LG Display Increases UHD OLED Panel’s Yield Value Up To 65%...Its Ultimate Goal Is 85% By End Of 2015
Jun 11, 2015

LG Display who was focused on targeting OLED TV market, raised UHD OLED panel’s yield value up to 65%. Its ultimate goal is 85%, and this will bring lot of momentum to expansion of OLED TV’s market share if LG Display ultimately reaches its goal.
According to high-rank LG Display executive, 65-inch and 77-inch UHD OLED’s yield value recently surpassed 65%. FHD OLED panel was able to secure a stable yield value by surpassing 80%.
FHD OLED TV was not able to receive any significant response from the markets because it was not able show any differentiated value like UHD LCD TV that chose quantum-dot (QD) film. OLED TV needs to surpass UHD if it wants to stay in the market, and this is why LG Display shifted its importance to production of UHD OLED panels starting this year. LG barely produces any FHD OLED panels.
One executive from LG Display said that yield value of 65-inch and 77-inch UHD OLED panels surpassed 65% since last April and the yield value of 55-inch is greater than 65-inch and 77-inch products.

Goal of LG Display for this year is to increase 77-inch, 65-inch, and 55-inch UHD OLED panels’ yield values up to 87%, 85%, and 75% respectively. If they are able to succeed in reaching that goal, then it will invest in building expansions that are double of current output.
If ink jet printing technique, which is currently being developed, gets successfully applied on mass-production line, LG is hoping that it can raise yield values and greatly lower production cost. Ink jet technique does not plate previous OLED luminous material that was in powder form, but it uses solution-form like material to put it on top of a board. LG Display will soon do a demonstration of operating ink jet pilot line at M2 line in Paju.
To raise OLED TV’s total yield value, it needs to not only improve panels, but also modules’ yield values. Because modules’ yield values are not high, total UHD OLED TV’s production yield values are also low.
A person in the business circle said that LG is currently having a difficult time because its modules’ yield values are low due to voltage problems. A person also said that LG’s goal is to improve module’s yield values up to more than 95% by end of the year.
If LG Display were to secure stable UHD OLED panel’s yield value, it is projected that it will advance the timing of making the market more advanced. It is predicted that other competitors will also work to rush into the market.
Market investigation company called HIS is predicting that shipping amount of UHD OLED TV will increase from 510,000 in 2015 to 1.29 million in 2006, and 5.07 million in 2018. It is also predicting that sales in 2020 will be 5.8 billion dollars, and percentage of OLED TV’s sales in all TV markets will increase to 9% in 2019.
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Old 06-11-2015, 12:34 PM
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65%.. No wonder prices are still sky high
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Old 06-11-2015, 12:39 PM
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Question that I have wondered for a long time: How/when in the production process of an oled panel is it determined that the panel is faulty? And what do they do with it? Can't just hit it with a brick can they? Seems to me that being able to reuse/recycle a reject panel would have a maybe large bearing on the overall cost of doing business?
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Old 06-11-2015, 02:14 PM
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So the voltage problems are what lg is saying is the problem. Is this then a confirmation on what's causing the black border issues on near black content?
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Old 06-12-2015, 12:28 AM
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So the voltage problems are what lg is saying is the problem. Is this then a confirmation on what's causing the black border issues on near black content?
Yes, it is. Transistor drift of IGZO causes a lot of issues. I think they are eventually going to have to switch to some version of LTPS if they want 95 to 99% yield rates.

In fact, I believe their IGZO is already very close to LTPS in that they try to make crystalline structure IGZO for the amorphous IGZO tends to drift like crazy. They might not call it LTPS, but in really modern IGZO and LTPS have virtually crystalline structure( for those of you who don't know it a crystalline structure allows for lower tolerances and what that means is that you may drive a crystalline structure transistor without a fear of drift and threshold shift at lower/higher voltages and what that in turn means is the finer voltage control necessary to drive an OLED panel).
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....

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Old 06-12-2015, 05:05 AM
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Yes, it is. Transistor drift of IGZO causes a lot of issues. I think they are eventually going to have to switch to some version of LTPS if they want 95 to 99% yield rates.

In fact, I believe their IGZO is already very close to LTPS in that they try to make crystalline structure IGZO for the amorphous IGZO tends to drift like crazy. They might not call it LTPS, but in really modern IGZO and LTPS have virtually crystalline structure( for those of you who don't know it a crystalline structure allows for lower tolerances and what that means is that you may drive a crystalline structure transistor without a fear of drift and threshold shift at lower/higher voltages and what that in turn means is the finer voltage control necessary to drive an OLED panel).
That's very interesting to read.

Voltage problems seem to have been an the heart of quite a few issues with the OLED sets, from the 'staining' resulting from transistor threshold drift (which now appears largely resolved through compensation algorithms), to the remaining quirks around banding and vignetting.

So if this is the case, and if adopting an LTPS backplane would eliminate these remaining issues, giving much greater fine voltage control, delivering much higher yields, then why doesn't LG simply do just that?

Is it just down to cost, or is there some proprietary issue around LTPS?

Desk
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Old 06-12-2015, 06:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Desk. View Post
So if this is the case, and if adopting an LTPS backplane would eliminate these remaining issues, giving much greater fine voltage control, delivering much higher yields, then why doesn't LG simply do just that?

Is it just down to cost, or is there some proprietary issue around LTPS?

Desk
It's cost. The LTPS cost is one of the main reasons Samsung isn't investing in OLED TV production yet. LG's slow ramp in production was to due to getting the oxide TFT yields up to the required rates. Here's a discussion...

8 mask oxide TFT production processes were reduced to 4 mask production and lowered investment cost, which led to a more reasonable panel price.

The halved number of masks in the TFT production signifies that the number of processes can be reduced and increase the yield rate. It also means the amount of large scale investment essential to the TFT production can be reduced by 50%.

The rival display of LCD mostly uses 4 mask process of a-Si TFT. If the existing Gen8 line, with capacity of 200K, is changed to LTPS TFT or 8 mask oxide TFT process, the capacity is reduced to approx.. 90K and increases the TFT production cost by more than 200%. However, in 4 mask production, the LCD line can be altered to TFT exclusive line for OLED without any loss of capacity; this would place the TFT production cost on the same level as LCD. Of course, as the existing line can be used without additional factory construction will reduce the investment cost even further.

Therefore, if OLED is developed using 4 mask oxide TFT technology, theoretically the production cost falls to the level of LCD panel production price excluding BLU. As the large area OLED panel market is in early stages, the OLED evaporator and encapsulation equipment price is still high, but the equipment price will fall rapidly within 2-3 years and the investment cost is also expected to be reduced.

The display market research organizations are estimating the large OLED panel price to be at least $3,000, but according to the 2015 Annual Report by UBI Research, the LG Display’s 55 inch FHD OLED panel price is only expected to be around $900, and a 55 inch UHD OLED panel is to be around $1,400. UBI Research analyses that there is some difference from the actual sales price as LG Display’s M2 line production and yield rates are low, but if the full capacity of 26K is reached and the yield rises to above 80%, the current supply price can easily be met. Particularly if the large scale mass production system is established with the addition of M3 and M4 lines, it is predicted that OLED panel price will be reduced so that there will only be 1.1 times difference compared to LCD panel.
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Old 06-12-2015, 08:05 AM
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Quote:
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That's very interesting to read.

Voltage problems seem to have been an the heart of quite a few issues with the OLED sets, from the 'staining' resulting from transistor threshold drift (which now appears largely resolved through compensation algorithms), to the remaining quirks around banding and vignetting.

So if this is the case, and if adopting an LTPS backplane would eliminate these remaining issues, giving much greater fine voltage control, delivering much higher yields, then why doesn't LG simply do just that?

Is it just down to cost, or is there some proprietary issue around LTPS?

Desk
It's the cost (more energy and more time) and the fact that LTPS requires the high-end electronic grade silicon due to higher temperatures involved.

There's no proprietary obstacles at all. The Applied Materials makes LTPS materials right next to the IGZO and a-Si and any one with a wad of cash can buy LTPS/IGZO/a-Si from them.

....

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Old 06-12-2015, 10:46 AM
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There is absolutely no way LG switches to LTPS and then scales that. In fact, there is pretty strong evidence that giant LTPS substrates aren't remotely viable from a manufacturing perspective at volume.

IGZO is still pretty new -- the first commercial products hit just 3 years ago or so. It will get there in time or other oxides will.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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Old 06-12-2015, 12:22 PM
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There is absolutely no way LG switches to LTPS and then scales that. In fact, there is pretty strong evidence that giant LTPS substrates aren't remotely viable from a manufacturing perspective at volume.

IGZO is still pretty new -- the first commercial products hit just 3 years ago or so. It will get there in time or other oxides will.
There's no fixing problems with oxides, becasue oxides are just additives which are added to crystallized a-Si to broaden the conductivity brackets thereof and a-Si's structure shifts slightly due to the near-instant voltage/current swings. And even current LTPS structures shift due to the voltage/current swings (as in swings in voltage and current from 0,0001 nit brightness to 300 nit brightness). In LTPS the swings in conductivity are cushioned by the rigidity of structure (meaning they are a good fit for compensation circuitry), but in IGZO the conductivity shifts (caused by structural shifts), on the finest of scales, are mostly unchecked, but for the compensation circuitry in many cases. But, I don't know, maybe compensation circuitry will get there in time, because IGZO is the best it can be right now...

....

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Old 06-13-2015, 07:03 AM
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65%.. No wonder prices are still sky high
Actually it is not even close to 65%... All those panes with darkened sides are defective, but in LG's opinion - they are not faulty
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Old 06-13-2015, 07:11 AM
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Actually it is not even close to 65%... All those panes with darkened sides are defective, but in LG's opinion - they are not faulty
They are only able to sell 6 out of 10, so for right now it is 60%. And that doesn't mean those entire 60% were good. Many of those are repaired to make them sellable or shipped defective. I keep hoping for some good news on printing OLED method because even if they get to the 80% of HD OLED, it will still never be able to compete in the mass consumer market. LCD tech continues to improve with WCG/HDR/FALD and even a 25% OLED premium in price would be hard sell to Joe Consumer.
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Old 06-13-2015, 08:02 AM
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They are only able to sell 6 out of 10, so for right now it is 60%. And that doesn't mean those entire 60% were good. Many of those are repaired to make them sellable or shipped defective. I keep hoping for some good news on printing OLED method because even if they get to the 80% of HD OLED, it will still never be able to compete in the mass consumer market. LCD tech continues to improve with WCG/HDR/FALD and even a 25% OLED premium in price would be hard sell to Joe Consumer.
I think they key is hitting that magic yield number of >85%. That article from slackers post says once they can reach that high of yields lg will invest in doubling there current production. I take it as expanding to another fab. If lg can double then triple the amount of tvs at those high yields I bet we will see prices more acceptable. Let's hope.
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Old 06-14-2015, 03:08 AM
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Actually it is not even close to 65%... All those panes with darkened sides are defective, but in LG's opinion - they are not faulty
They are not faulty it is just that IGZO structure varies from transistor to transistor a little. If you want 100% uniformity than the only option is LTPS ( which of course, in really is no option at all) at the moment.

....
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Old 06-14-2015, 03:39 AM
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They are not faulty it is just that IGZO structure varies from transistor to transistor a little. If you want 100% uniformity than the only option is LTPS ( which of course, in really is no option at all) at the moment.
So what criteria do you use to say its faulty if you want to say that its not faulty when visible to users?

Another thought is if its not visible early in a display's life, is it possible that it'll show up after a few hundred hours after most return windows have closed?
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Old 06-14-2015, 06:56 AM
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So what criteria do you use to say its faulty if you want to say that its not faulty when visible to users?

Another thought is if its not visible early in a display's life, is it possible that it'll show up after a few hundred hours after most return windows have closed?
It's just that some degree of variation in structure is inevitable during the process of production and deposition of IGZO at least with current production equipment/tech.

No, it shouldn't get much worse over time (or at least noticeably worse, because voltages are too fine to be able to rock the IGZO's boat significantly) unless the back-plane is faulty, but it might just get worse enough to be able to get your proverbial goat...

....

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Old 06-14-2015, 10:43 AM
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hi
Can one Reliable source About sub pixel oled curved To me Introduce?
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Old 06-14-2015, 01:01 PM
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They are not faulty it is just that IGZO structure varies from transistor to transistor a little. If you want 100% uniformity than the only option is LTPS ( which of course, in really is no option at all) at the moment.
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Originally Posted by stas3098 View Post
It's just that some degree of variation in structure is inevitable during the process of production and deposition of IGZO at least with current production equipment/tech.

No, it shouldn't get much worse over time (or at least noticeably worse, because voltages are too fine to be able to rock the IGZO's boat significantly) unless the back-plane is faulty, but it might just get worse enough to be able to get your proverbial goat...
So what you're saying is, stay away from OLED unless it is LTPS? Unless you want darkened edges which are part and parcel of OLED which could theoretically worsen
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Old 06-14-2015, 02:47 PM
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So what you're saying is, stay away from OLED unless it is LTPS? Unless you want darkened edges which are part and parcel of OLED which could theoretically worsen
The problem is that there's no LTPS OLED TVs out there and there might not be any for a long time.

But for now there's going to be some OLEDs with darkened edges which shall come as part and parcel of them, but some lucky guys might win the OLED lottery and get one without such blemishes... in the TV world you never know until you open the box.

....
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Old 06-15-2015, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by stas3098 View Post
They are not faulty it is just that IGZO structure varies from transistor to transistor a little. If you want 100% uniformity than the only option is LTPS ( which of course, in really is no option at all) at the moment.
Are you saying that it's the backplane which is responsible for LG OLED non-uniformity? I was under the impression that it was caused by the imperfect deposition of the actual OLED material. Why do IGZO LCDs not have these uniformity problems?
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