OLED TVs: Technology Advancements Thread - Page 412 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #12331 of 12361 Old 08-18-2015, 06:39 AM
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Update on progress of JOLED (Sony & Panasonic's OLED joint venture)

This only involves medium-sized OLEDs destined for tablets and computer monitors, but here's an update on the progress of what's assumed to be OLEDs manufactured using printing technology Panasonic was working on.

JOLED commits €147 million to smart OLED production line: https://www.plusplasticelectronics.c...oled-productio
Quote:

Japanese manufacturers operating through the industry coalition JOLED have announced plans to create a mass production test line for OLED panels.

The new production facility will cost ¥20 billion (€147 million). It will be based in the Ishiwaka prefecture and begin pilot operation in spring 2016 according to a 4 August report from Nikkei – full production runs are slated to begin in 2018.

The initial focus will be to develop a cost-effective model for producing HD panels for screens in the 10-inch to 30-inch range for integration into tablets, other smart devices, and computer monitors.

JOLED pools the expertise of Sony, Panasonic and Japan Display (JDI). As reported on +Plastic Electronics it was created in August 2014 under the auspices of the public-private investment group the Innovation Network Corporation of Japan (INCJ).

JOLED’s goal is create a hub of expertise that will allow Japanese firms to catch up on the technology lead South Korea’s LG and Samsung have built up in commercial OLED fabrication.

JDI is believed to be the driving force behind the new Ishiwaka line, with conjecture from Digitimes naming it – alongside LG – as a future supplier of OLED panels for use in Apple smart devices.

By John Nelson
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post #12332 of 12361 Old 08-18-2015, 08:29 AM
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LG Display Co., a supplier to Apple Inc., plans to invest about 10 trillion won ($8.5 billion) over the next three years to develop next-generation screens to reverse slowing growth and gain an edge over competitors.


LG Display will shift its investment focus to screens powered by tiny organic light-emitting diodes, or OLEDs, the Seoul-based company said in an e-mailed statement Monday. The world’s largest maker of liquid crystal displays is betting on growth in demand for advanced displays, including foldable screens, for wearable devices, cars and televisions.


The display maker has set its sights on new technology as competition from up-and-coming Chinese manufacturers intensifies and demand for consumer electronics slows. The leader in large OLEDs is trying to expand its footprint in smaller devices, as it grapples with tepid sales and declining prices for LCD screens in TVs and computers.
“The investment aims to make LG Display grow as a sustainable company,” Chief Executive Officer Han Sang Beom said in the statement. LG Display’s priority is to “pioneer this untapped OLED market to sustain our leadership in the display industry and keep the competitors at bay.”


The global OLED market is forecast to grow to $28.3 billion by 2022, from $8.7 billion last year, the company said in the statement, citing estimates by researcher DisplaySearch.


Yet display earnings are at risk as Chinese newcomers try to catch up with the Koreans. Beijing-based BOE Technology Group Co. said in April it will spend 40 billion yuan ($6.3 billion) on an LCD factory that will produce displays for large TVs when it opens in 2018.


LG Display last month posted a better-than-expected second-quarter operating profit of 488 billion won.


However, sales growth slowed to 12 percent from the preceding period’s 26 percent pace. Chief Financial Officer Don Kim said at the time he expected panel prices to continue their downtrend in the third quarter.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...een-technology
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post #12333 of 12361 Old 08-18-2015, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Peterson View Post
This only involves medium-sized OLEDs destined for tablets and computer monitors, but here's an update on the progress of what's assumed to be OLEDs manufactured using printing technology Panasonic was working on.

JOLED commits €147 million to smart OLED production line: https://www.plusplasticelectronics.c...oled-productio
So this is actually very weird....

"We are building OLED displays -- tepidly -- for two categories that have thus far shown zero or near zero interest in OLED displays."

Look, this may work and perhaps someone will commit to OLED tablets based on this (Apple?)... I wonder how big (small) the entire 30" computer display market is these days. Bigger than, say, "all Microsoft Surface sales by volume" but still not very big.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #12334 of 12361 Old 08-18-2015, 11:53 AM
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Sony currently sells OLED broadcast monitors in that size range and has been for several years now:
http://www.sony.co.uk/pro/products/b...-oled-monitors
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post #12335 of 12361 Old 08-18-2015, 12:37 PM
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Tablet market isn't looking like it was a couple of years ago.

Unless OLED is at price parity to IPS, why would anyone use them in tablets and give up margins.
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post #12336 of 12361 Old 08-18-2015, 04:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NintendoManiac64 View Post
Sony currently sells OLED broadcast monitors in that size range and has been for several years now:
http://www.sony.co.uk/pro/products/b...-oled-monitors
They sell thousands of those per year. By "thousands" I don't mean "tens of thousands."

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Tablet market isn't looking like it was a couple of years ago.

Unless OLED is at price parity to IPS, why would anyone use them in tablets and give up margins.
Right.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #12337 of 12361 Old 08-18-2015, 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by wco81 View Post
Tablet market isn't looking like it was a couple of years ago.

Unless OLED is at price parity to IPS, why would anyone use them in tablets and give up margins.
Readability in bright sunlight used to be a factor. OLED could go brighter. Is it still factor? Has LED/LCD closed that gap?

Cheers,
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post #12338 of 12361 Old 08-20-2015, 09:34 PM
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Let me know when I can get a 75" OLED flat screen at a reasonable price.2K or less. Come on Vizio lol

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post #12339 of 12361 Old 08-21-2015, 01:23 AM
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Originally Posted by dnoonie View Post
Readability in bright sunlight used to be a factor. OLED could go brighter. Is it still factor? Has LED/LCD closed that gap?

Cheers,
OLED is not really efficient... but yeah OLED is bright

Has LED/LCD closed that gap?

I don't think so.

Also as a side note, the Tab S2 8.0 has a horrible display (very comparatively speaking) and the Tab S2 9.4 has one that's even worse when compared to that of the Tab S 10.5 so if you want to get a tablet with the best display then you'd better hurry up and get a Samsung Tab S 10.5.
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....

Last edited by stas3098; 08-22-2015 at 12:39 AM.
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post #12340 of 12361 Old 08-21-2015, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by stas3098 View Post
OLED is not really efficient... but yeah OLED is bright

Has LED/LCD closed that gap?

I don't think so.

Also as a side note, Tab S2 8.0 has a horrible display and 9.4 has one that's even worse when compared to that of the Tab S 10.5 so if you want to get a tablet with the best display then you'd better hurry up and get a Samsung Tab S 10.5.
That's disappointing. How did it get worse?
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post #12341 of 12361 Old 08-21-2015, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by cdecker78 View Post
Let me know when I can get a 75" OLED flat screen at a reasonable price.2K or less. Come on Vizio lol
Would you expect to get a Hyundai Elantra for the same price as a Corvette?
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post #12342 of 12361 Old 08-21-2015, 07:32 PM
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Wait a second. Something wooshed by me on the samsung page. Did we talk about this recently?

Apparently their OLED page is still alive and well. Why?

http://www.samsung.com/us/oled-tv/#home

The phrasing is as if the S9C (etc.) are still viable products. Is this just a leftover page with no connective link? Google landed right on it.

V/I is futile.
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post #12343 of 12361 Old 08-22-2015, 12:19 AM
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post
Wait a second. Something wooshed by me on the samsung page. Did we talk about this recently?

Apparently their OLED page is still alive and well. Why?

http://www.samsung.com/us/oled-tv/#home

The phrasing is as if the S9C (etc.) are still viable products. Is this just a leftover page with no connective link? Google landed right on it.
All I know is that they don't sell them, anymore.

....
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post #12344 of 12361 Old 08-22-2015, 12:30 AM
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That's disappointing. How did it get worse?
In one word, Pentile. Plus poor viewing angles (relatively speaking) as well, about as good as those of the PS Vita, and the gamma tracking is really out of whack (mine doesn't track the 2.2 gamma ideally by all means), but other than that it's pretty good. Also Reading Mode does not seem to make a heck of a difference when it comes to alleviating eye-strain from prolonged reading sessions... but it's really bright, though, or so it seems to the naked eye.

The Samsung Galaxy Tab S 10.5's display was not PenTile, it was full-on RGB.

....

Last edited by stas3098; 08-22-2015 at 07:35 AM.
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post #12345 of 12361 Old 08-22-2015, 01:04 PM
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Would you expect to get a Hyundai Elantra for the same price as a Corvette?
That was really a joke about Vizio creating cheap TVs, But yeah... Do you have a corvette for sale?

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post #12346 of 12361 Old 08-23-2015, 07:40 AM
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I'm not sure if they are sales or permanent price cuts but there are finally some major price reductions at the big retailers (Best Buy/Amazon) on all of the models.

55EC9300 for $1999 (from $2500)
55EG9600 for $4000 (from $5000)
65EG9600 for $6000 (from $7000)


The 55EC9300 is probably getting phased out so I could imagine even lower close out pricing soon.
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post #12347 of 12361 Old 08-23-2015, 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by slacker711 View Post
I'm not sure if they are sales or permanent price cuts but there are finally some major price reductions at the big retailers (Best Buy/Amazon) on all of the models.

55EC9300 for $1999 (from $2500)
55EG9600 for $4000 (from $5000)
65EG9600 for $6000 (from $7000)


The 55EC9300 is probably getting phased out so I could imagine even lower close out pricing soon.
Your post got me looking around a little. Only because I found it interesting, here is the price history of those above models (from camelcamelcamel.com). Note: I'm choosing "all date ranges" to be shown, so the time scales won't match up:

55EC9300


55EG9600


65EG9600
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post #12348 of 12361 Old 08-23-2015, 08:44 AM
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post
Your post got me looking around a little. Only because I found it interesting, here is the price history of those above models (from camelcamelcamel.com).
Thanks. I cant believe I never ran across that site before but it seems pretty useful.

The pricing gap between the majors and places like CP seems more reasonable now. IFA is next week and my WAG is that we'll get some pricing details about the new models then.
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post #12349 of 12361 Old 08-23-2015, 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by slacker711 View Post
Thanks. I cant believe I never ran across that site before but it seems pretty useful.
More than welcome. I've been trying to spread the word about ccc for a long time. Something to keep in mind though: There have been some cases where they just cannot get the information. In 2012-2013, LG's LM series was one of them. It happens.

Where these guys become priceless is when you want something like a CD/DVD/BD, but just don't want to pay much for it. You can then be notified the moment it descends below your asking price. Absurd sales happen all the time. You can search for used as well.

Also, he has different sites monitoring best buy, and others.


Quote:
Originally Posted by slacker711 View Post
The pricing gap between the majors and places like CP seems more reasonable now. IFA is next week and my WAG is that we'll get some pricing details about the new models then.
I had lost track of time apparently; good grief.

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post #12350 of 12361 Old 08-23-2015, 10:18 AM
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I am mildly encouraged that $6000 is just 2 more 30% price cuts from where the 65" needs to be to start moving reasonably substantial unit counts -- the kind LG will absolutely need 2 years from now to come anywhere close to its production target.

As many know, 30% annual price cuts are not exceptional in this kind of technology. Both LCD and plasma saw them for significant stretches.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #12351 of 12361 Old 08-23-2015, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post
I am mildly encouraged that $6000 is just 2 more 30% price cuts from where the 65" needs to be to start moving reasonably substantial unit counts -- the kind LG will absolutely need 2 years from now to come anywhere close to its production target.

As many know, 30% annual price cuts are not exceptional in this kind of technology. Both LCD and plasma saw them for significant stretches.
I know you're speaking in aggregates, and not strictly list pricing, but what I find encouraging is that the amazon price went from $9000 to $6000 in 5 months. 33% couldn't possibly be repeatable every 5 months of course, .....but it certainly gives me significant pause to wonder what it'd be like if it did.

price = list * (0.66 ^ (months / 5))

....sort of gets my attention.

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post #12352 of 12361 Old 08-23-2015, 10:29 AM
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These prices are pretty much meaningless without knowing cost. LG could sell them for $1000 each if they wanted to take greater than the $500 per unit loss they are currently taking. All this is clearance pricing anyway. The real clues is in the pricing of the 4K 55EF9500 at $5K and 65EF9500 at $7K. Still about 3X higher than where they need to be. The one piece of good news is the 8.5 billion dollar investment in OLED that LG is making. Though it is hard to determine how much of that is for the large format market. OLED is going to remain niche much longer than expected as WHF LCD continues to drop to levels it can not match. Once the price the 4K 55" OLED is at $1500 and 65" at $2500, then we know they have cracked the yield problems and it finally has a chance at the mass consumer market.

DON'T ARGUE WITH ME. I AM NEVER WONG.
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post #12353 of 12361 Old 08-23-2015, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post
I know you're speaking in aggregates, and not strictly list pricing, but what I find encouraging is that the amazon price went from $9000 to $6000 in 5 months. 33% couldn't possibly be repeatable every 5 months of course, .....but it certainly gives me significant pause to wonder what it'd be like if it did.

price = list * (0.66 ^ (months / 5))

....sort of gets my attention.
I'm inclined to dismiss that kind of trend without seeing it repeatedly, including on newly announced models.

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These prices are pretty much meaningless without knowing cost. LG could sell them for $1000 each if they wanted to take greater than the $500 per unit loss they are currently taking. All this is clearance pricing anyway. The real clues is in the pricing of the 4K 55EF9500 at $5K and 65EF9500 at $7K. Still about 3X higher than where they need to be. The one piece of good news is the 8.5 billion dollar investment in OLED that LG is making. Though it is hard to determine how much of that is for the large format market. OLED is going to remain niche much longer than expected as WHF LCD continues to drop to levels it can not match. Once the price the 4K 55" OLED is at $1500 and 65" at $2500, then we know they have cracked the yield problems and it finally has a chance at the mass consumer market.
Right, those are very intriguing numbers Sytech: $1500/$2500. And those are 2017-18 at the absolute soonest, I think it's safe to assume. In fact, they would require the next-gen fab to be online because I think we can make a strong case that LG sells out of M1/M2 production at somewhat higher prices (notably: cracking $3500 on the 65" moves it into interesting territory, $3000 into much more interesting territory. On the 55", a real 4K for $2500 is mildly intriguing, at $2000 it's more intriguing.)

The $1500/$2500 benchmarks start to allow LG to think about selling millions of OLED TVs. It's somewhat probable that $1000/$2000 starts them thinking about many millions... The challenge, of course, is that everyone else isn't going to just concede market share. And there are very legitimate questions as to OLED TV will ever reach the levels LCD is at today. You can buy a 60" for well under $1000 at retail. I doubt LG has a price target like $800/60" anywhere on the road map. I am skeptical they intend to deliver a 65" at $1500 in the foreseeable future either -- which would allow LG to at least be price competitive with retail 70" TVs.

Most of the $8.5B is going to mobile. I think it's correct (per slacker) that LG and Apple already have a deal for an iPhone that is like 2017's model to use OLED. There exists some fairly small possibility that something happens there in 2016.

The TV stuff, even if we assume 125% growth off of next year's mythic 1.5M would be sub 8M units in 2018. At that point, growth will definitionally slow because building fab capacity becomes a constraint. LG seems incapable of selling even 10% of the world's TVs with OLED in 2020. But a much larger share of the 55" and up market is plausible and an even larger share of the premium market is plausible.

From there, much will depend on whether OLED really does get cheaper to produce (please, everyone, spare me the "no backlight = cheaper" facile argument here) and how quickly others can produce them. LG has a huge lead, but the development of the ecosystem that will let them get past 10M annually will help all competitors. That's just the way things work. And if printing ever becomes viable, it's actually a chance for competitors to leapfrog the pioneer.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #12354 of 12361 Old 08-23-2015, 12:39 PM
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News releases from the Kateeva website:

----- #1 -----
Kateeva consolidates global HQ and manufacturing operations in new larger Bay Area facility

"The move boosts Kateeva’s operations as it shifts fast into volume production, said the company’s President and Co-founder Dr. Conor Madigan."

July 15, 2015
Company also adds two senior executives to operations team
READ MORE
----- #2 -----
DuPont Displays and Kateeva Collaborate to Optimize Inkjet Printing for Mass Production of OLED TVs

June 1, 2015
Companies to Combine Expertise in OLED Materials and Printing Equipment
READ MORE

V/I is futile.

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post #12355 of 12361 Old 08-23-2015, 01:32 PM
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All the talk here understandably revolves around production capabilities and profit margins. But what about the evolution of product quality? What PQ improvements can we expect over the next two model years?
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post #12356 of 12361 Old 08-23-2015, 03:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post
Most of the $8.5B is going to mobile.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post
News releases from the Kateeva website
Would be curious how you know that most of it is going to mobile? Some things coming out of the IMID conference in Korea this past week..

"Out of $8.45 billion, it seems that most of investment will be used on establishing large-sized Gen 8 or higher OLED line."

I've heard $4.5 billion for large size. The initial talk was $2 billion for gen 8 fab beginning at the end of this year. So it would make sense to have that as the 2016 investment with another fab in late 2017/18. The economics of mobile and TV lines are very different. A $1 billion investment in a gen 6 mobile line gets you 7,500 sheets of capacity while a $1 billion investment in converting an existing LCD TV line to OLED gets you around 30,000 sheets. Something to consider when you wonder why Samsung failed to apply their mobile FMM RGB with LTPS technology to TV. So even if the $ are split evenly between mobile and TV it will result in far more area being for TV though perhaps not more units.

LG Display CEO on inkjet printing: "It's too early to talk about the timing of mass production of inkjet based OLED displays"
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post #12357 of 12361 Old 08-23-2015, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post
On the 55", a real 4K for $2500 is mildly intriguing, at $2000 it's more intriguing.)
FWIW, the pre-order pricing for the 55EG920V (4K OLED Curved) is $2550 in Finland after you subtract out the VAT.

It seems too early to hit that kind of price though. My guess is that this TV is priced higher and the flat models are priced lower than the $7000 and $5000 we have seen on some sites.
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post #12358 of 12361 Old 08-23-2015, 03:58 PM
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Lets say OLED hits price parity or is even 20% below LED. There is not going to be a mass upgrade. People may certainly opt for OLED as they replace their TVs but other than video and techphiles, they won't move up their replacement schedule.

Maybe if 4K was a big hit, with all major sports being broadcast in 4K and HDR, there would be excitement for upgrading to something they considered a big enough leap in PQ. (And will OLED necessarily do better with sports than either LCD or plasma?). Or ATSC 3.0 is mandated and people have to migrate to receive TV broadcasts and cable and satellite all put out cheap 4K set tops.

Can a slow uptake be enough to sustain continued manufacture of OLED, never mind continued development and refinement?

For most people, the TVs they have now are probably "good enough" that they don't feel any urgency to spend thousands or even hundreds to replace their TVs.


Not a good conclusion for those of us who want to see advances in displays come to market. Unfortunately, there just aren't enough people willing to spend on the best or at least better TVs.
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post #12359 of 12361 Old 08-23-2015, 04:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo
Most of the $8.5B is going to mobile.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024
News releases from the Kateeva website


Would be curious how you know that most of it is going to mobile? Some things coming out of the IMID conference in Korea this past week..
....you were directing this to rogo of course....

V/I is futile.
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post #12360 of 12361 Old Today, 05:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post
Wait a second. Something wooshed by me on the samsung page. Did we talk about this recently?

Apparently their OLED page is still alive and well. Why?

http://www.samsung.com/us/oled-tv/#home

The phrasing is as if the S9C (etc.) are still viable products. Is this just a leftover page with no connective link? Google landed right on it.
> Apparently their OLED page is still alive and well. Why?

The copyright date on that page is 2013.

The easiest (and usually cheapest) way to improve the sound of your system is to put on a better recording.
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Led Hdtv , Lcd Hdtv , Plasma Hdtv , Oled Tv , Lg , Samsung



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