OLED TVs: Technology Advancements Thread - Page 424 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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Old 11-12-2015, 10:05 AM
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LG expected to finalize 8G OLED investment plans in November, says report

Source (Digitimes): http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20151104PD204.html

Quote:
Carmen Chen, Taipei; Alex Wolfgram, DIGITIMES [Wednesday 4 November 2015]

LG Display is expected to make a final decision by the end of November regarding how it will allocate a US$3.55 billion investment at its 8G OLED production facilities in Paju, South Korea, according to a report from Money Today.

The line is expected to cut 2,200 by 2,500 substrates and reach a monthly production capacity of 40,000 substrates, giving LG approximately 80,000 substrates in monthly capacity by 2018.

The report said LG will use the line to focus mainly on production of small- to medium-size flexible OLED displays in addition to large-size OLED TV panels, giving the company a more complete range of OLED solutions.

Meanwhile, other reports from Asia have stated LG is pushing up visits to China-based handset vendors such as Oppo and Vivo to discuss supplying increased amounts of AMOLED panels. The panel maker also expects a major increase in high-end smartphone demand through the end of 2015 and heading into 2016 in China in addition to increased global demand for OLED TVs from 2017 onwards.
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Old 11-12-2015, 10:16 AM
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Maybe they should work on improving the quality of their panels first before expanding.
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Old 11-12-2015, 01:12 PM
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In typical Digitimes fashion, you have to sort of translate the English to English. But I read this to say, "Most of this new production is for mobile screen, with a few more TVs thrown in."

That makes sense given that they already have all the TV production they need to get them through next year, but less sense given that we are talking about just 80,000 substrates in 2018?

Eek, that's way too low. If 100% of that went to TV*, it would be ~5 million TVs a year. Way too low.

* And clearly that isn't the plan.

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Old 11-13-2015, 10:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post
English to English
Shall we say, Engrish to English?
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Old 11-13-2015, 11:13 AM
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Shall we say, Engrish to English?
We could, but I was trying to be a tad more polite

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Old 11-17-2015, 04:30 AM
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Oled tv and water dangerous

Hi Guys,
I am thinking to buy LG EC9300.
Important question - how dangerous is water for the oled, is it a problem to wipe out the screen with wet cloth?
Thank you,
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Old 11-17-2015, 06:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossorange View Post
Hi Guys,
I am thinking to buy LG EC9300.
Important question - how dangerous is water for the oled, is it a problem to wipe out the screen with wet cloth?
Thank you,
There seems to be a lot of conflicting advice on the internet. What looked best to me was use three microfiber clothes. First dust the screen with one cloth. Then with a wrung out damp cloth, dampened with water or a specifically designed agent-you decide which is best-wipe the screen again. Then dry the screen with a third microfiber.

If you find better advice please post the information.
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Old 11-19-2015, 02:44 AM
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Now they speculate about a 10G OLED plant by LG:

Quote:
BusinessKorea 19 Korean media reported, citing industry sources, LGD plans to build in Paju, South Korea, the 10th generation OLED panel production line "P10", it is expected to be 4-5 trillion won of funds (equivalent to 34.2-42.7 billion).
https://translate.google.de/translat...67a6&sandbox=1

Edit: It seems it´s more than only a rumour:

Quote:
According to industry sources on Nov. 18, LG Display will set up its 10th organic light-emitting diode (OLED) panel production line, P10, in Paju. The company will make the investment worth 4 trillion to 5 trillion won (US$3.42 billion to 4.27 billion).

Earlier, the company announced in July that it will invest more than 1 trillion won (US$853.97 million) in building a new plant in Gumi to produce the 6th-generation OLED substrate sheet of 1,500mm x 1,850mm. Therefore, the total investments for plants in Gumi and Paju will reach 5 trillion to 6 trillion won (US$4.27 billion to 5.12 billion) within this year. According to the plan announced by LG Display in Aug., the company will make an investment of 10 trillion won (US$8.54 billion) by 2018.
http://www.businessk...-new-oled-plant-paju

Last edited by ALMA; 11-19-2015 at 07:19 AM.
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Old 11-19-2015, 07:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ALMA View Post
Now they speculate about a 10G OLED plant by LG:

https://translate.google.de/translat...67a6&sandbox=1

Edit: It seems it´s more than only a rumour:

http://www.businessk...-new-oled-plant-paju
6 months ago I was under the impression that there was quite a bit of doubt about whether OLED for large screen TV was here to stay. Are we now over the hump where we can be sure it will be sticking around for quite a while?

--Darin
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Old 11-19-2015, 11:51 AM
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Alma, interesting. There is a lot of detail missing: Is it a "10G" substrate as we know it in the sense of Sharp's Sakai plant, the only operating 10G plant to date? Are they committed to making it OLED (there's conflicting language in the Business Korea story)? What's the nonsense about maybe making LCDs with LTPS or "oxide"? They are already making some IGZO LCDs and some LTPS I'm fairly sure. They can't both be doubling down on LCD and also going all in on OLED.

Darin, what has changed -- at least for the moment -- is LG has made plans/announcements to push forward. That's very bullish because of a sort of interesting cycle: They've already learned that there is essentially no volume to be had by inventing a new super-premium tier of pricing. To reach even next year's goals of selling something like 1.5M TVs, they will have to compete with real, existing, LCDs you can buy.

Once they do that, they will be poised to not only hit some sales goal for 2016, but also grow into 2017-18 and beyond. With new capacity then online and the need to sell even more TVs, they have to push into more tiers of LCD pricing.

So I'm bullish that if they go through will all their announced investments, we'll see a $3000 65-inch OLED and a $1500 55-inch OLED. Because without those, there is simply no way to hit the sales goals. And without hitting the sales goals, there is no way to fully build out the capacity justified by announced plans.

That they have OEMs interested and also have competition possibly thinking about emerging from Samsung and China is just more good news.
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Old 11-22-2015, 11:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post
6 months ago I was under the impression that there was quite a bit of doubt about whether OLED for large screen TV was here to stay. Are we now over the hump where we can be sure it will be sticking around for quite a while?

--Darin
In this case I am an arm chair quarterback. However, based on the amount of investment that has been taking place. I would say that they are seriously have a desire to over take the market.
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Old 11-22-2015, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post
So I'm bullish that if they go through will all their announced investments, we'll see a $3000 65-inch OLED and a $1500 55-inch OLED.

You have selected attractive price points. When do you think this might happen?
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Old 11-22-2015, 03:14 PM
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You have selected attractive price points. When do you think this might happen?
By 2017.

Today, we're at about $5000/$3000 for flat models (I'm discussing real prices, at major retailers like Amazon / Best Buy. While it's good to know about better deals, especially from reputable discounters like forum sponsor Cleveland Plasma, those are not reflective of the deals most people will ever obtain)

It's also worth noting that the 1080p 55-inch can be had for ~$1,800 pretty easily I believe, which would be tantalizing for someone who (a) didn't mind a curved screen (b) needed just a 55-inch display.

Anyway, historically, we've seen ~30% price drops on technology that sees rapidly falling prices. That doesn't tell us much about what happens in a given single year, however. So it doesn't for example inform us that next year's prices will be $3500/$2100. Nor that the year after's will be $2500/$1500.

That said, to get from $5000 to $3000 only requires 25% compounded declines over a couple of years. That feels pretty doable. (n.b. I'm quite confident LG will offer a 65" OLED for not only $2500, but even $2000 before the decade is over*. The vast majority of 60" TVs sold are now $1200 and less. For even 70", the vast majority of sales are well below $2000. LG cannot hit its sales goals without 65" TVs that are $2000, if not cheaper.)

The significance of the $3000 price point is that -- for several years -- it represented the price at which a state of the art plasma could be found on sale. In short, it was sort of a high-water mark for volume TV selling and therefore a short-term maximum for LG to attract notice that it's 65-inch OLED is "something you can really buy." I think the $4000 TVs sell in far, far lower quantity than nearly anywhere hear believes. I don't actually believe they are mostly intended for sale, but rather to promote less expensive models.

Anyway, I digress... Two years seems very doable for that decline. One year does not seem completely impossible.

The 55-inch models are trickier. I don't believe -- for a number of technical reasons -- that the 4K models are inherently more expensive to make than the 1080p models by more than perhaps $20-50. And the only reason for the delta is that the semiconductors aren't in as high volume and the bill of materials is slightly higher overall. In the short term, yields are likely lower but that's not inherent.

As we've already seen 55-inch models comfortably below $2000 at retail, I think the $3000 price of today's 4K model is somewhat artificially high. If we apply the 30% reduction twice, you'll see we still get there in 2 years ($2100, $1500)**. In the 55-inch category, I'm actually skeptical there is a market above $1500 today that has any real volume. There might be some small amount of volume at $2000, but I think it's quite a bit smaller than -- again -- most people at AVS believe.

LG is seeking volume increases that amount to more than doubling in 2016 and then something similar in 2017. You can't make people up their spending in TV so you'll have to meet them at prices they are willing to pay.

I look forward to it.




* Assuming, of course, they keep making OLED TVs on the expected capital expansion trajectory.
** Yes, I can do math. Yes, I also round off for simplicity.

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Old 11-22-2015, 03:34 PM
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I saw this article recently, claiming LG is about to cut the prices by almost half before christmas.

http://www.techeye.net/news/lg-to-sl...s-to-push-tech
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Old 11-22-2015, 04:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post
LG is seeking volume increases that amount to more than doubling in 2016 and then something similar in 2017. You can't make people up their spending in TV so you'll have to meet them at prices they are willing to pay.
Perfectly stated. For me, it's also not a question of overall cost, but of value. And in terms of value...that thread on the flat 55" and 65" scares the heck out of me with all the problems. Why would I pay 5,000 and risk being unhappy. At 3,000...i'd be much more inclined to jump in and "hope for the best".

What's really got me intrigued is the new 2016 77" OLED won some sort of CES Innovations award (how they won for a show that hasn't occurred yet, I don't know, but I'll take it on faith). I would love to know 1.)how much that 77" is going to street for by mid-2016 and 2.)what its going to do to the price of the 65" (there always seems to be about a "roughly 2x" MSRP premium for the largest size in any range).

Anyway, 5,000 is about as high as I'll go on a TV. It would have to be something really special for my to go up to 6-8,000.
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Old 11-22-2015, 05:33 PM
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I saw this article recently, claiming LG is about to cut the prices by almost half before christmas.

http://www.techeye.net/news/lg-to-sl...s-to-push-tech
Sounds to me like that means in half from where they were:
Quote:
LG Electronics is going to slash the price of OLED TVs almost in half before Christmas in a bid to make the TV technology mainstream.
...
LG Electronics said production improvements allowed it to cut prices of six models in the world’s biggest TV market by as much as 45 percent from last month, without crimping margins. Two are now below $2,000, a fraction of the $14,999 of LG’s first OLED TV in 2013.
While it would be great to see I doubt what LG was saying is that this year they are going to cut another 50% off the 45% they already claim to have cut prices.

--Darin

This is the AV Science Forum. Please don't be gullible and please do remember the saying, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."
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Old 11-22-2015, 10:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Esox50 View Post
]
What's really got me intrigued is the new 2016 77" OLED won some sort of CES Innovations award (how they won for a show that hasn't occurred yet, I don't know, but I'll take it on faith). I would love to know 1.)how much that 77" is going to street for by mid-2016 and 2.)what its going to do to the price of the 65" (there always seems to be about a "roughly 2x" MSRP premium for the largest size in any range).

Anyway, 5,000 is about as high as I'll go on a TV. It would have to be something really special for my to go up to 6-8,000.

I would love, love, love a 77" Oled, but it needs to be well south of $10k.
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Old 11-22-2015, 10:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Esox50 View Post
What's really got me intrigued is the new 2016 77" OLED won some sort of CES Innovations award (how they won for a show that hasn't occurred yet, I don't know, but I'll take it on faith). I would love to know 1.)how much that 77" is going to street for by mid-2016 and 2.)what its going to do to the price of the 65" (there always seems to be about a "roughly 2x" MSRP premium for the largest size in any range).

Anyway, 5,000 is about as high as I'll go on a TV. It would have to be something really special for my to go up to 6-8,000.
I generally try to avoid too many of the: "This is what I'm concerned about personally" posts, but it's pretty well clear that the 77" (or thereabouts) is the one I personally want. The reason I didn't speculate on the price as much is that to date it's not actually a real product. Producing a few demo units for the rich and famous does not a "product" in the mass production sense make. I do believe it will eventually fall into line with the other models. Does that mean it will eventually be part of a lineup that is $1500/$2500/$3500? Perhaps. One that's $1500/$3000/$5000? More assuredly.

But as for 2016/17, I'd place fewer bets on where the 77" falls. I don't have confidence it gets much below $10,000 next year, for example. I'd like to believe it gets to $5000 in 2017, but I'm nowhere near certain of that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post
Sounds to me like that means in half from where they were:
While it would be great to see I doubt what LG was saying is that this year they are going to cut another 50% off the 45% they already claim to have cut prices.
Correct. We essentially see the prices that exist for the holiday season right now. Black Friday pricing is already widely available and the idea pricing will be below that is generally false.

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Old 11-22-2015, 11:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

But as for 2016/17, I'd place fewer bets on where the 77" falls. I don't have confidence it gets much below $10,000 next year, for example. I'd like to believe it gets to $5000 in 2017, but I'm nowhere near certain of that.

I have a real hard time with sets over $5-7k because any more than that and you can get a very, very nice projector coupled with a very nice screen the size of a wall. I understand its a different product, but $10k for a 77" TV is just too much to swallow.

But fingers crossed!
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Old 11-23-2015, 03:08 PM
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I have a real hard time with sets over $5-7k because any more than that and you can get a very, very nice projector coupled with a very nice screen the size of a wall. I understand its a different product, but $10k for a 77" TV is just too much to swallow.
Well, you aren't alone with that... and projectors are only a small part of the reason.

The market stratifies pretty quickly in TV. Of the ~250 million TVs sold, more than 225 million of them are sold below $1000. Of the remainder, the vast majority are then sold below $2000. And of that remainder, nearly everything left is sold below $3000.

And you may ask yourself well how did I get here?
And you may ask yourself am I right? Am I wrong?
And you may say to yourself: What have I done?!
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Old 11-23-2015, 11:47 PM
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Hmm, this could be a hint from Samsung for CES 2016...

samsungtomorrow(com)/tv-%EA%B5%AC%EB%A7%A4-%EA%BF%80%ED%8C%81-%E2%91%A1%EC%96%B4%EB%96%A4-%EB%B0%A9%EC%8B%9D%EC%9D%98-tv%EA%B0%80-%EC%A2%8B%EC%9D%84%EA%B9%8C

WOLED...
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Old 11-24-2015, 06:56 AM
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^^^ I can't get the link to work so can't read the article, but I'm hoping Samsung doesn't move to WOLED with their future OLED TVs. I would prefer their future OLED sets use printing and I think that implies RGB.
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Old 11-24-2015, 09:26 AM
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What future OLED sets?

They're touting quantum dot aren't they?
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Old 11-24-2015, 09:26 AM
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Hmm, this could be a hint from Samsung for CES 2016...

samsungtomorrow(com)/tv-%EA%B5%AC%EB%A7%A4-%EA%BF%80%ED%8C%81-%E2%91%A1%EC%96%B4%EB%96%A4-%EB%B0%A9%EC%8B%9D%EC%9D%98-tv%EA%B0%80-%EC%A2%8B%EC%9D%84%EA%B9%8C

WOLED...

can you relink please
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Old 11-24-2015, 09:32 AM
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See if this works. It is a link to the Korean Samsung Tomorrow website. There is a picture showing how WOLED works, but I'm not sure if they are being complementary of the process or not.

http://samsungtomorrow.com/tv-%EA%B5...9D%84%EA%B9%8C
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Old 11-24-2015, 12:01 PM
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The old non-ASCII characters in the URL strikes again!


The trick with URLs that have east-Asian characters (or other non-ASCII characters) is to copy only part of the URL, the easiest being everything but the http:// (you can still manually type in http:// afterwards if you really need it).

This then will give you the URL as it is displayed rather than the URL as the computer understands it.


The original URL was this:
samsungtomorrow.com/tv-구매-꿀팁-②어떤-방식의-tv가-좋을까
Nugget and sooke like this.

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Old 11-24-2015, 12:42 PM
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See if this works. It is a link to the Korean Samsung Tomorrow website. There is a picture showing how WOLED works, but I'm not sure if they are being complementary of the process or not.
The Google Translate does not feel like a compliment.

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Old 11-24-2015, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by NintendoManiac64 View Post
The old non-ASCII characters in the URL strikes again!


The trick with URLs that have east-Asian characters (or other non-ASCII characters) is to copy only part of the URL, the easiest being everything but the http:// (you can still manually type in http:// afterwards if you really need it).

This then will give you the URL as it is displayed rather than the URL as the computer understands it.


The original URL was this:
samsungtomorrow.com/tv-구매-꿀팁-②어떤-방식의-tv가-좋을까
Well that ^^^^ particular link works for me, though I have to employ the S3.Google app instead of having the webpage itself handle the English. If I ask for English from the site itself, I land on the main page far away from the article.

The gobbledygook that I get from S3.Google seems to indicate that they're simply taking a pulse of what's going on, and they differentiate between OLED and WOLED.

Nothing in it sound as if they're particularly impressed with WOLED.

Thought #AOY: So as a kid I tested the causality chain of something. When my cat was angry, she put her ears back. When that happened, I decided to push them forward, and then she purred. (!) Turns out that it's not that being angry causes the cat to push its ears back, but being angry and pushing their ears back are two parts of the same exact thing. She could not be angry with her ears forward.
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Old 11-24-2015, 02:10 PM
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I finally saw the 4K version of the 55" LG OLED TV (at Best Buy...we tend to be a bit behind here in Canada).
It looked quite promising, though it would be so nice to see one that was not in crushed/over-sharpened settings mode.
Some day I have to see one of these in a room with no lights on.

On another note: Vizio has finally shown up in our Best Buys (told you we were behind..) So I finally got a peek at their "M" and "P" series. Since there are so many flat panels on display these days showing proprietary 4K footage, well, they showed the usual sharpness and vividness. But the thing I really came away with was: How BAD the hot-spotting was on those displays!
An image with a mostly white screen came up and the image was bright in the center, dimming to grayish from there. I thought at first this was simply in the image, but when I moved I noticed that bright spot shifted over to the same side I shifted towards - and I realised it was a hot-spot, not in the source. A bit more checking of this (that was the more expensive model, "P" I think), and other models left me quite disheartened that such uneven illumination was still the bane of LCDs.

I don't really buy flat panels anymore, but if I did I'd be very frustrated with the dominance of LCD. (I happen to be more sensitive to those artifacts than many people. I also don't like the fact I can still see the screen surface on LCD TVs, whereas the emissive pixels of plasma were blissfully direct and unsullied).

Please save us OLED, you're our only hope...
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Old 11-24-2015, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by wco81 View Post
What future OLED sets?

They're touting quantum dot aren't they?
Samsung to produce OLED televisions in 2017
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