OLED TVs: Technology Advancements Thread - Page 430 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #12871 of 13179 Unread 01-31-2016, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Cooters View Post
The market for high end and ultra high end technology does not always remain stagnant. Think the high end smartphone market in 2007 prior to the iPhone, versus today. I am certainly not predicting anything to that degree, but IMO the high end is expanding now, and will continue to. In other areas OLED is creating markets that did not even exist with LCD - VR, flexible displays, soon foldable displays.


Everyone that sees my EC9300 notices it is different. As these TV's appear in public places and as more people have at least one experience in a home setting, the demand curve can shift.
Those other uses aside, the FABs being built (and recommissioned) for OLED are only intended for screen sizes of 55"+ from my understanding. OLED does compete relatively well in a showroom/retail environment in comparison to a plasma, but high-end FALD displays are also competitive there as well.
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post #12872 of 13179 Unread 01-31-2016, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by RLBURNSIDE View Post
wow...8k + hdr OLED in 2017.

Goes to show that 99% of market predictions here on AVS are completely worthless conjecture that reality roundly mocks at regular intervals. And thank goodness, because this is terrific news.
Let's just take this bet now. The 99% of predictions here on AVS (most of which, when made by smart folks, are pretty close), against the "not any chance in hell" belief of an organization formed to hype OLED that there'll be an 8K HDR OLED for sale from Samsung next year?

You go and save up your money but there won't be any such thing for sale in 2017. Feel free to make me eat crow on this in the unlikely event our universe is swapped with another portion of the The Matrix.

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Originally Posted by barth2k View Post
That tiling display looks like a great idea. What's stopping it from being reality?

OLED yield on 77" is abysmal, but it appears pretty good for 55". Tile four of those and you get 110" @8k. Tile four 65" and you get 130". R I P front projection.
The problem with the 77s isn't yield, it's panels per substrate.

The problem with going to tiled 55s to fix this is there isn't a way to make a completely border-free tile using existing production technology.
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I imagine they put the panels on solid metal backs that can be jointed together. The joint does not have to be seamless, just good enough to not be noticeable at 1.5× or so screen width.
It would be visible at greater than that.
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Of course they need to fix the vignetting and uniformity issues. The electronics required to drive multiple displays are well known. The pieces can be shipped separately and installed on site. Should cost less than the 77" right :-)
It would cost more and wouldn't be as uniform so, no. This isn't the fix. The fix is 2018-19 and the bigger fab. The long-term dream of tiles is attainable, but I believe it would use a smaller tile and a purpose-built production line to make it possible.

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Originally Posted by Cooters View Post
The market for high end and ultra high end technology does not always remain stagnant. Think the high end smartphone market in 2007 prior to the iPhone, versus today.
The difference is something called "jobs to be done." We hired phones in 2006 to make calls, maybe send texts (inconveniently) and rarely surf the web very (poorly). We hire the iPhone to surf the web like a computer, send tons of messages with a keyboard that's usable, and run millions of app that do everything. It's a globally connected supercomputer in your pocket.

The OLED TV does the same job as the $500 Walmart special. That's why it's not a game changer, nor is FALD, nor is any of this. And it's why there will not be an expansion of the high end. If anything, OLED will actually shrink the high end by bringing videophile picture quality down from the highest price bands, causing the next group of buyers to question paying the highest premiums.
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I am certainly not predicting anything to that degree, but IMO the high end is expanding now, and will continue to. In other areas OLED is creating markets that did not even exist with LCD - VR, flexible displays, soon foldable displays.
Yes, OLED technology is amazing. Very easy to get excited about its potential.
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post #12873 of 13179 Unread 01-31-2016, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post
Considering Cleveland Plasma has been selling the EF9500 for $4250 for awhile now, I think it's highly likely the B6 would be less than $4k.
We'd have a better idea of pricing if supply outpaced demand and it doesn't seem like its there yet.
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post #12874 of 13179 Unread 01-31-2016, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by sytech View Post
He didn't say 65B6, he said 65E6. The 65B6 should hit below $4K by the end of the year, the E6 with sound bar, probably not. I'll offer you the same deal, I'll take the over on $3750 65E6 by the the end of the year.
I know exactly what I said, and what he said. My comment was about B6 pricing, obviously...

Anyone that thinks the E6 will be less than $3750 may need help. That line of thinking doesn't make me or you a savant either.

Another safe bet would be that the Patriots will not win SB 50.
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post #12875 of 13179 Unread 01-31-2016, 01:49 PM
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It's unfortunate LG is pretty much ceding 70 inches market to Samsung and Sony. Current 65 inches inefficiency will be solved with the P10, but not 77 inches. I wonder how big is the market for the 70 inches and over compared to 55~65 inches to have LG make such decision? Insignificant I bet, but still... 64/65 inches plasma owners will be the saddest people to find this out as they're more likely to increase size over what they have. (for example, ME!) I know, I know, plasma owners were the least significant bit to begin with.

The only configuration I can think of that can salvage substrate waste of the P10 9.7G is to go with 2.35:1 instead of 16:9 for the 77 inches and 98 inches which will make for 96 inches and 120~123 inches. LG could fund Panamorph to get them to put anamorphic encoding into Blurays. Since those fools at BDA decided to forgo anamorphic encoding into their base spec of the UHD BD, extra metadata would have to be relied upon, but if LG is serious with this as they were once serious with 3D, I think they can pull it off. Then they could advertise to the consumers, "Hey, look at this! No black bars!" I'd gladly pay the 77 inches price for the 2.35:1 96 inches. The 90 inches Sharp and the 85 inches Sony X850B were beginning to look fat on vertical sides. So, instead of wasting four 8G substrates on sub-120 inches LCD like Samsung, LG, and BOE did, single substrate could be used to produce two. The question is, do they want to? Do they want to invest in the ultra niche that Hollywood has passed over for the very same reason?

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post #12876 of 13179 Unread 01-31-2016, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by JimP View Post
We'd have a better idea of pricing if supply outpaced demand and it doesn't seem like its there yet.
But we do.

We know that when the price of 65" OLEDs increases to $6000, supply outpaces demand, and we know that when the prices of 65" OLEDs decreases to $5000 (along with widely-available street discounting to $4500), demand apparently outstrips supply...

If the claim that LG sold 200,000 OLEDs in Q4'15 is to be believed, this represents roughly full Q4 4K production capacity of 65" 4K OLEDs, half the capacity of Q4 55" 4K OLEDs, and far less than half of the Q4 production capacity if the 55" 1080p OLEDs coming off of M1 are included in the mix...

LG has found the sweetspot on pricing of their 65" OLEDs for now, but as yields continue to improve and pent-up demand continues to be fulfilled, I believe we are going to see convergence to pricing for the 65EF9500/65EG9600 below $5000 as the norm...
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post #12877 of 13179 Unread 01-31-2016, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
But we do.

We know that when the price of 65" OLEDs increases to $6000, supply outpaces demand, and we know that when the prices of 65" OLEDs decreases to $5000 (along with widely-available street discounting to $4500), demand apparently outstrips supply...

..
...is that backwards? Shouldn't prices drop when there is more supply than demand at a given price point?
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post #12878 of 13179 Unread 01-31-2016, 04:29 PM
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...is that backwards? Shouldn't prices drop when there is more supply than demand at a given price point?
I think you're reading backwards.

Just double-checked and I believe that is what I said .
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post #12879 of 13179 Unread 01-31-2016, 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted by KOF View Post
It's unfortunate LG is pretty much ceding 70 inches market to Samsung and Sony. Current 65 inches inefficiency will be solved with the P10, but not 77 inches. I wonder how big is the market for the 70 inches and over compared to 55~65 inches to have LG make such decision? Insignificant I bet, but still... 64/65 inches plasma owners will be the saddest people to find this out as they're more likely to increase size over what they have. (for example, ME!) I know, I know, plasma owners were the least significant bit to begin with.
So the 70+ market is probably currently only 2-5% of the 65-inch market alone. A bunch of that is price, though. If you compare it to the 55+65 market, it's certainly below 1%.

If we were to look at the premium-only segment and just arbitrarily say, "It's 55 and up" then more of the market is 70 and up. How much of the premium tier? Maybe 10%? Those panels rarely sell outside of North America and truthfully most of the 70s are not truly premium models (especially if we are talking $2000+ at 70). In short, I doubt LG is ceding anything important today. But...
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snip on future stuff
So yeah, a lot of things are possible. A lot of them aren't especially optimal because you get things like a 110" cut from and 8G with 1/3 of the substrate wasted. You could get a decent cut of 2 x 85" from the 8G glass, which might ultimately prove to be a more interesting model than the 77, even though it does limit the buyer pool.

I don't know what they'll do to work into the 70s, but I suspect a better solution than what exists now is coming. It just may not come for 2-3 years. It has made me reconsider whether I want a 65 sooner rather than waiting on a 77 later.

And you may ask yourself well how did I get here?
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post #12880 of 13179 Unread 01-31-2016, 07:23 PM
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I don't know what they'll do to work into the 70s, but I suspect a better solution than what exists now is coming. It just may not come for 2-3 years. It has made me reconsider whether I want a 65 sooner rather than waiting on a 77 later.
Spot on as usual. Would you consider "one last LCD" in the 75" size? Or is it OLED or bust at this point?
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post #12881 of 13179 Unread 01-31-2016, 07:31 PM
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Spot on as usual. Would you consider "one last LCD" in the 75" size? Or is it OLED or bust at this point?
For me, it's OLED or bust. But that's because (a) I don't consider the Sony's design very workable (b) I value viewing angles a good deal because I like being able to have everyone in the room enjoy the TV as much as everyone else (c) Sony's price is cray cray for me.

I can see the argument for the Sony, though, if someone has the funds and really doesn't care about limiting viewing to the sweet spot or mind the speakers. It's a great product (IMO) and at half the price would be pretty easy to consider for a 3-5 year TV.

Obviously, someone who needs size more would value this differently. And someone not especially concerned with PQ but really wanting size has lots and lots of options. I'm a VT50 owner who won't take a downgrade on any picture quality attributes I have. To me, therefore, only the absolute creme de la creme of LCDs represents an option.

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post #12882 of 13179 Unread 02-01-2016, 07:23 AM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post
For me, it's OLED or bust. But that's because (a) I don't consider the Sony's design very workable (b) I value viewing angles a good deal because I like being able to have everyone in the room enjoy the TV as much as everyone else (c) Sony's price is cray cray for me.

I can see the argument for the Sony, though, if someone has the funds and really doesn't care about limiting viewing to the sweet spot or mind the speakers. It's a great product (IMO) and at half the price would be pretty easy to consider for a 3-5 year TV.
Except for active 3D.

BTW, didn't the 2016 940(D?) dump the speakers?

And yeah, the list prices as you pointed out are still clearly in the domain of yesteryear "Sony Thinking".

Oye.


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Obviously, someone who needs size more would value this differently. And someone not especially concerned with PQ but really wanting size has lots and lots of options. I'm a VT50 owner who won't take a downgrade on any picture quality attributes I have. To me, therefore, only the absolute creme de la creme of LCDs represents an option.
For most folks, I can't see a reason to move sideways from an undamaged VT50, unless 3D passive is critical for you (as it is for me), or 4K (HDR, and other flimsy standards) are similarly something you're no longer willing to do without.

Thought #AUI: If the source of your political information is from internet memes or your politically like-minded friends, congratulations. You're part of the disinformation machine.

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post #12883 of 13179 Unread 02-01-2016, 11:39 AM
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BTW, didn't the 2016 940(D?) dump the speakers?

And yeah, the list prices as you pointed out are still clearly in the domain of yesteryear "Sony Thinking".
Yeah, the speakers are gone. But the 2016 isn't for sale yet and, I imagine, will still be $6000.
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For most folks, I can't see a reason to move sideways from an undamaged VT50, unless 3D passive is critical for you (as it is for me), or 4K (HDR, and other flimsy standards) are similarly something you're no longer willing to do without.
I'm still kind of hoping to hold out until 2017-18. But what I'm thinking is that the "TV I want" is really going to be out in 2020, so maybe if the price is right on the B6, I might go sooner and then again later.

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post #12884 of 13179 Unread 02-01-2016, 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post

I'm still kind of hoping to hold out until 2017-18. But what I'm thinking is that the "TV I want" is really going to be out in 2020, so maybe if the price is right on the B6, I might go sooner and then again later.
So you are waiting for a QD-LED also.

DON'T ARGUE WITH ME. I AM NEVER WONG.
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post #12885 of 13179 Unread 02-01-2016, 10:33 PM
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So you are waiting for a QD-LED also.
Heh.

Humor aside, I think 2020 is an interesting inflection date to check in on something:

Has another technology emerged to take on OLED?
Is LCD investment continuing in any segments?

By decade's end, we should have a very strong window into the next decade. It may be pre-ordained, or there may be signs of future chaos.

And you may ask yourself well how did I get here?
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post #12886 of 13179 Unread 02-02-2016, 04:28 AM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post
Heh.

Humor aside, I think 2020 is an interesting inflection date to check in on something:

Has another technology emerged to take on OLED?
Is LCD investment continuing in any segments?

By decade's end, we should have a very strong window into the next decade. It may be pre-ordained, or there may be signs of future chaos.
For those of us who are in our final 10 years(more or less), I sure wish this stuff would come around sooner than later.
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post #12887 of 13179 Unread 02-02-2016, 05:51 AM
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So you are waiting for a QD-LED also.
Actually Robert Heron stated at CES 2016 wrap up that he was told that they would come up with a prototype at years end | 41:50

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post #12888 of 13179 Unread 02-02-2016, 08:45 AM
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At a recent presentation LG Display CTO commented on changes made to OLED TVs. He made these points.
1. oxide TFT changed from etch stopper to coplanar method
2. went from internal to external compensation
3. new OLED device structure
4. improved high efficiency and high color gamut OLED materials
5. improvement in uniformity in gen 8 manufacturing equipment

I'll just comment on a couple of these. The oxide TFT changes make a pretty significant improvement in the cost of oxide TFT. While it is still more expensive than aSi it is getting closer both in terms of capital expense and process steps during manufacturing. The OLED device structure has been said to be a 3 stack structure which improves blue and thus overall performance.
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post #12889 of 13179 Unread 02-02-2016, 09:51 AM
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Would you please provide a link to the source ?

----------------------------------------------------------
Pioneer PDP 434 (bought in 2004, still wonderful and in use) Now looking for an OLED; Samsung 46ES5800 in vacation home, can't stand the LCD pic after having been spoiled by plasma :-)
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post #12890 of 13179 Unread 02-02-2016, 11:07 AM
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For those of us who are in our final 10 years(more or less), I sure wish this stuff would come around sooner than later.
I get a kick out of folks who can plan for toys on a decade basis.
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post #12891 of 13179 Unread 02-02-2016, 11:55 AM
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Actually Robert Heron stated at CES 2016 wrap up that he was told that they would come up with a prototype at years end | 41:50
Right, so if they achieve that, then sometime around 2020 we'll learn if it's possible to mass produce a display based on it. Nothing in display works fast. And there isn't a real chance that some end of 2016 prototype is going to lead to an affordable commercial display before decade's end.

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Originally Posted by ynotgoal View Post
At a recent presentation LG Display CTO commented on changes made to OLED TVs. He made these points.
1. oxide TFT changed from etch stopper to coplanar method
2. went from internal to external compensation
3. new OLED device structure
4. improved high efficiency and high color gamut OLED materials
5. improvement in uniformity in gen 8 manufacturing equipment

I'll just comment on a couple of these. The oxide TFT changes make a pretty significant improvement in the cost of oxide TFT. While it is still more expensive than aSi it is getting closer both in terms of capital expense and process steps during manufacturing. The OLED device structure has been said to be a 3 stack structure which improves blue and thus overall performance.
I'm very excited about the external compensation. (I kid, I have no idea what that means.)

Everything that drives down cost, improves quality of finished products as well as production quality (e.g. uniformity) is clearly a good thing.

And you may ask yourself well how did I get here?
And you may ask yourself am I right? Am I wrong?
And you may say to yourself: What have I done?!
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post #12892 of 13179 Unread 02-02-2016, 12:16 PM
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I'm very excited about the external compensation. (I kid, I have no idea what that means.)

Everything that drives down cost, improves quality of finished products as well as production quality (e.g. uniformity) is clearly a good thing.
Here is a total guess at what 'external' versus 'interna'l compensation could mean:

We know that LG has a way to measure near-black offset/fixed-pattern-noise/nonuniformity.

My guess is that today they are using that information to make adjustments of the voltage levels being applied to the OLED cells, so it is completely distinct from CMS/pixel-level-processing. And this could be 'internal' because it is 100% internal to the panel and completely divorced from the desired pixel display target coming from CMS.

Using that nonuniformity data to take it into account within the pixel processing/CMS that converts incoming video levels to target stimulation would be much more effective (as well as complicated ) and would be within the pixel processing engine and hence 'external' to the panel.

There are only a very few video levels that cause issues near black and I have always thought that with a simple fixed-pattern-noise map near-black uniformity of these WOLEDs could be dramatically improved by addressing it at the input-end rather than the output end.

Think of it as a very, very, simple greyscale LUT applied to video levels 16,17,18, 19 and 20 on an individual pixel basis.

I'm very excited now about what improvements in near-black uniformity the G6P may have to offer (regardless of whether my whacky hypothesis proves to be realistic or not )

The poor near-black uniformity and gradation control is the greatest Achilles-heel of 2015-generation WOLEDs (assuming more significant defects such as Vignetting have been resolved ), so I am excited to see hints that LG has recognized the importance of improving in this area and will hopefully have some new technology to show us soon .
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post #12893 of 13179 Unread 02-02-2016, 12:41 PM
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FWIW, the first page of a SID paper from LG Display on external compensation circuit. It is supposed to reduce power consumption as well as improve grey scale.

http://www.readcube.com/articles/10....2014.tb00191.x
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post #12894 of 13179 Unread 02-02-2016, 01:42 PM
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Hmm, that paper suggests better aperture ratios, i.e. better fill factors.

That could mitigate one of the worst features of the early displays. I know people have been harping on this less claiming 4K is a solution (which I disagree with entirely). Anything that illuminates more of the display is a big win.

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post #12895 of 13179 Unread 02-02-2016, 02:04 PM
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Hmm, that paper suggests better aperture ratios, i.e. better fill factors.

That could mitigate one of the worst features of the early displays. I know people have been harping on this less claiming 4K is a solution (which I disagree with entirely). Anything that illuminates more of the display is a big win.
And also probably provides increased brightness .
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post #12896 of 13179 Unread 02-02-2016, 06:43 PM
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For me, it's OLED or bust. But that's because (a) I don't consider the Sony's design very workable (b) I value viewing angles a good deal because I like being able to have everyone in the room enjoy the TV as much as everyone else (c) Sony's price is cray cray for me.

I can see the argument for the Sony, though, if someone has the funds and really doesn't care about limiting viewing to the sweet spot or mind the speakers. It's a great product (IMO) and at half the price would be pretty easy to consider for a 3-5 year TV.

Obviously, someone who needs size more would value this differently. And someone not especially concerned with PQ but really wanting size has lots and lots of options. I'm a VT50 owner who won't take a downgrade on any picture quality attributes I have. To me, therefore, only the absolute creme de la creme of LCDs represents an option.
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post #12897 of 13179 Unread 02-02-2016, 06:50 PM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post
Hmm, that paper suggests better aperture ratios, i.e. better fill factors.

That could mitigate one of the worst features of the early displays. I know people have been harping on this less claiming 4K is a solution (which I disagree with entirely). Anything that illuminates more of the display is a big win.
There seem to be few of us who find that to be the case. I am still struck by the not-quite-invisible fill factor on 4K flat panels, OLED included. Part of this is because I'm used to a pretty immersive viewing angle so I naturally stand in a position with that in mind. And of course, it's those closer viewing angles at which you start really appreciating the 4K detail. But it's also those viewing angles that for me start showing slight granularity where I pick up on the pixel structure.
(And it's funny how, when you've become used to higher resolution, how much easier it is to notice pixel structure on lower resolution models. After owning a display that is FAIAP perfectly smooth and grid-free, and doing much standing in front of all the 4K panels at the stores, 1080p displays these days are hard for me to take seriously as an immersive experience due to the obvious-to-my-eyes pixel structure).
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post #12898 of 13179 Unread 02-02-2016, 10:16 PM
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Pixel structure and fill factor aren't precisely the same thing, though, Rich. Related, of course.

The first-gen 1080P LG OLEDs had awful fill factor. You could halve or quarter those pixels and they'd... still have awful fill factor.

The very thing you're doing by moving closer makes that still apparent.

I'll admit I just haven't spent enough time with even the existing LG 4K models to decide whether this is improved over the 1080P models. But I'm excited to know that it's possible the newest models will have a better aperture ratio and therefore a better fill factor. That will make the pixel structure less visible, to be sure, because fill will reduce the lines between pixels.

But I tend to see a lot of posts here where people just conclude "because 4K, lines between pixels so small that this stops mattering". And that's where I've parted ways with that kind of thinking.

And you may ask yourself well how did I get here?
And you may ask yourself am I right? Am I wrong?
And you may say to yourself: What have I done?!
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post #12899 of 13179 Unread 02-03-2016, 04:32 AM
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I wonder how the panel compensation is done (either internal or external) without having a measurement of the actual light level pixel by pixel. Do they really have in-built measurement circuits attached to each pixel ? Without this feedback they can't manage non-uniform areas and pixel degradation...

----------------------------------------------------------
Pioneer PDP 434 (bought in 2004, still wonderful and in use) Now looking for an OLED; Samsung 46ES5800 in vacation home, can't stand the LCD pic after having been spoiled by plasma :-)

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I wonder how the panel compensation is done (either internal or external) without having a measurement of the actual light level pixel by pixel. Do they really have in-built measurement circuits attached to each pixel ? Without this feedback they can't manage non-uniform areas and pixel degradation...
In general, Light Out = Current In, so it is possible to monitor the light out (current in) from within the panel.

I believe the non-uniformity issues WOLED suffer from a more directly related to mismatch and shift in threshold voltage rather that current (they are related, since threshold can be thought off as gating current).

It is possible to measure threshold voltage using very, very low currents (or modest currents for a very short pulse of time) which woukd mean that threshold mismatch/shift of individual pixels could be measured/estimated while the panel appears to be perfectly black.

I have always that this is what is going on while my WOLED is spending 5-10 minutes in it's silent and dark compensation cycle...
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