OLED TVs: Technology Advancements Thread - Page 431 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #12901 of 12923 Unread 02-03-2016, 11:50 AM
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post #12902 of 12923 Unread 02-03-2016, 11:54 AM
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Yes, because most trucking companies are totally interested in spending tens of thousands of dollars to keep other people on the road safe!

With HDMI cables, if you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. Also, while anecdote is the "singular of data" your personal anecdote isn't data. When you conflate your anecdote with data and then decide someone else's anecdote isn't data, you earn a place on my ignore list.
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post #12903 of 12923 Unread 02-03-2016, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post
Yes, because most trucking companies are totally interested in spending tens of thousands of dollars to keep other people on the road safe!
Not to mention the liability concerns - what happens when the TV goes on the blink and a passing vehicle has an accident as the result - talk about Black Crush
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post #12904 of 12923 Unread 02-03-2016, 06:08 PM
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Originally Posted by irkuck View Post
It's hilarious how dim even HDR TVs are compared to a bright, sunny day.
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post #12905 of 12923 Unread 02-04-2016, 06:55 AM
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Originally Posted by irkuck View Post
Holy crap, that thing might just disorient me enough to swerve off the road.

People tend to "zoom into" displays when they look at them. Oye.

Might as well show a roller coaster ride.

We've had a lot of evaluation with this, and it's time to consider wiping out all mosquitoes. We can do that with carefully crafted GMO. It's just not an insect that is worth having around. Mother nature will adapt, just as she always has with the millions of other species that have vanished on their own. In fact, the impact will be remarkably minor.
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post #12906 of 12923 Unread 02-04-2016, 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post
Holy crap, that thing might just disorient me enough to swerve off the road.

People tend to "zoom into" displays when they look at them. Oye.

Might as well show a roller coaster ride.
I think the more economical and effective solution is to paint on the back of each truck a pictogram of a car attempting to pass a truck with the caption "go ahead, make my day."
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post #12907 of 12923 Unread Yesterday, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by RLBURNSIDE View Post
It's hilarious how dim even HDR TVs are compared to a bright, sunny day.
The RearEndTV trucks are absolutely real and will hit the roads later this year. For FUD distributors and Naysayers there is this: The IP56-certified signage are water- and dust-proof and were designed to maintain visual quality even under strong sunlight. It just remains to be seen if on boring long stretches of narrow roads it will be possible to order hot movies from the truck driver via CB radio.
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post #12908 of 12923 Unread Yesterday, 08:22 AM
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How many here realize this thread is approaching 10 years old and we still don't have a product without substantial problems and at a reasonable cost?

According to the 1st post (which was never updated) it's been 15 years since the 1st announcement of this tech.

.
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post #12909 of 12923 Unread Yesterday, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by irkuck View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post
Holy crap, that thing might just disorient me enough to swerve off the road.

People tend to "zoom into" displays when they look at them. Oye.

Might as well show a roller coaster ride.
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Originally Posted by barth2k View Post
I think the more economical and effective solution is to paint on the back of each truck a pictogram of a car attempting to pass a truck with the caption "go ahead, make my day."
Perhaps it might be hacked into and suddenly show a car going the wrong direction and swerving right into your lane at you head on. Aye yi yi.

We've had a lot of evaluation with this, and it's time to consider wiping out all mosquitoes. We can do that with carefully crafted GMO. It's just not an insect that is worth having around. Mother nature will adapt, just as she always has with the millions of other species that have vanished on their own. In fact, the impact will be remarkably minor.
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post #12910 of 12923 Unread Yesterday, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by irkuck View Post
The RearEndTV trucks are absolutely real and will hit the roads later this year. For FUD distributors and Naysayers there is this: The IP56-certified signage are water- and dust-proof and were designed to maintain visual quality even under strong sunlight. It just remains to be seen if on boring long stretches of narrow roads it will be possible to order hot movies from the truck driver via CB radio.
Ok, but it is 4 46" LED outdoor digiital signage displays with 3,000 nits brightness (not an OLED). One of the displays by itself costs $6,000 (according to Google) so the system would probably be $25,000. I'd have to agree with Rogo that not many truckers are going to voluntarily spend that kind of money for it. Great idea though.
https://news.samsung.com/global/sams...ruck-prototype
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post #12911 of 12923 Unread Yesterday, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by videobruce View Post
How many here realize this thread is approaching 10 years old and we still don't have a product without substantial problems and at a reasonable cost?
That's not a universal finding. Some folks are happy with current models, though the teething problems *are* being eradicated. The sole unit of Vizio's failure-to-launch flagship model (Reference) sold had significant banding itself, and how much does that cost? You've got to pay beacoup money for LCD (hello, 940c) if you want performance that compares to OLED.
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According to the 1st post (which was never updated) it's been 15 years since the 1st announcement of this tech.
LCD development began at least in the 70s so it's not unusual. Why ignore the progress? I can walk into Best Buy today and purchase one at just a little over $2k for a 55", which was nothing more than a dream 3 short years ago.
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post #12912 of 12923 Unread Yesterday, 02:18 PM
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The fact that it's taken ~15 years is entirely the point.

It takes that long for every flat panel technology that has made it to become commercially viable.

OLED has crossed that threshold. But plasma is an object lesson the entire era of commercialization can be shorter than the journey. Work to be done, excitement to be had.

And a 100% certainty that if tomorrow someone comes up with something better, cheaper, faster we won't be buying it this decade.

This is what we have.

With HDMI cables, if you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. Also, while anecdote is the "singular of data" your personal anecdote isn't data. When you conflate your anecdote with data and then decide someone else's anecdote isn't data, you earn a place on my ignore list.
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post #12913 of 12923 Unread Yesterday, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by videobruce View Post
How many here realize this thread is approaching 10 years old and we still don't have a product without substantial problems and at a reasonable cost?

According to the 1st post (which was never updated) it's been 15 years since the 1st announcement of this tech.
Not that the war is won yet, but that's an overstatement.

The 55EC9300 is a real product without 'substantial problems' and at $1400, cost is pretty reasonable (certainly compared to the Samsung 55F8500 which is the best relatively recent 55" 1080p plasma ).
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post #12914 of 12923 Unread Yesterday, 11:34 PM
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Consider that we had commercial LCD screens on hand-held devices in 1990, but LCD TVs weren't really a thing until around 10 years later...and they weren't exactly cheap.

So I wouldn't get paranoid about OLED not dropping in price quick enough until we've had handheld OLED displays for at least 10 years (we're around 7 years currently I believe?).
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post #12915 of 12923 Unread Today, 01:16 AM
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Consider that we had commercial LCD screens on hand-held devices in 1990, but LCD TVs weren't really a thing until around 10 years later...and they weren't exactly cheap.

So I wouldn't get paranoid about OLED not dropping in price quick enough until we've had handheld OLED displays for at least 10 years (we're around 7 years currently I believe?).
I had an HTC Incredible around 2008. So 7 years sounds right.

With HDMI cables, if you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. Also, while anecdote is the "singular of data" your personal anecdote isn't data. When you conflate your anecdote with data and then decide someone else's anecdote isn't data, you earn a place on my ignore list.
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post #12916 of 12923 Unread Today, 05:55 AM
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The fact that it's taken ~15 years is entirely the point.
Didn't we get to the moon in 10?

.
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Abundant OTA television is what makes this country different from all others. Lets keep it this way. If you like Wi-Fi so much, OTA fits right in. After all, it is wireless.
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post #12917 of 12923 Unread Today, 11:34 AM
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Didn't we get to the moon in 10?

Actually, no :-P More like 150, but then we tend to forget that scientists "stand on the shoulders of giants..."

We've had a lot of evaluation with this, and it's time to consider wiping out all mosquitoes. We can do that with carefully crafted GMO. It's just not an insect that is worth having around. Mother nature will adapt, just as she always has with the millions of other species that have vanished on their own. In fact, the impact will be remarkably minor.
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post #12918 of 12923 Unread Today, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by video_analysis View Post
LCD development began at least in the 70s so it's not unusual..
Yep. I remember in the 70's that my uncle was selling plasma displays. My university even had an ancient plasma terminal. All monochromatic green, and scarred up like crazy from years of burn-in. From there they added abilities.

That any particular technology takes 2X amount of years instead of X is a {shrug} moment in the making. It's not the bottom line for anything meaningful, and only sounds like it's somehow indicting, when it isn't.

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The fact that it's taken ~15 years is entirely the point.

It takes that long for every flat panel technology that has made it to become commercially viable.
See, I'm not quite sure how your first sentence connects to the 2nd. Does it matter if something takes 30 years instead of 15, other than irritating all of us waiting? I don't see it. Were you saying the same thing?

We've had a lot of evaluation with this, and it's time to consider wiping out all mosquitoes. We can do that with carefully crafted GMO. It's just not an insect that is worth having around. Mother nature will adapt, just as she always has with the millions of other species that have vanished on their own. In fact, the impact will be remarkably minor.
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post #12919 of 12923 Unread Today, 01:52 PM
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Boy try to say something nice about the current state of OLED (all is well, we're exactly where we should be) and even that gets people riled.

And, yes, plasma took 30+ years before you could really buy a TV. Of course, while OLED research began arguably in the 1950s, with 1960 as sort of a turning point, the first OLED device generally dates back to 1987. That's 26 years from first device --> first commercial TV offering (let's just ignore the XEL-1 and the small LGs, neither of which came anywhere near close to 10,000 units).

For plasma, an arguably corresponding timeframe was 1964 --> 1995. 31 years.

LCD is trickier. We could sort of argue 1972 --> 1988. That would seem "short" at 16 years. But that would then concede 14-inch TVs are some sort of grail. It would not be until around 2003 that a 40-inch LCD was actually viable. Hmm, that's 31 years. I don't really think that's a coincidence.

So when someone starts talking about emissive quantum-dot displays, which unlike pretty much everything else (maybe MEMS-type shutter displays of various kind?!?) have at least been theorized and demoed in monochromatic at tiny sizes, I can speculate with the benefit of hindsight pretty well. We won't have emissive quantum-dot displays in the 2010s. We are very unlikely to have them in the 2020s even if -- like OLED -- they utilize significant parts of the LCD infrastructure. Sometime very late in the next decade or into the 2030s is plausible.

Do we need that technology? Only if it's discontinuously better or cheaper.* Because OLED (and LCD) are going to continuing improving and getting less expensive every year with volume.

* And even then, perhaps not. Futurists are now beginning to believe that AR technology (and to an extent VR) will begin to supplant displays as we currently know them. This won't happen immediately of course, but if we end up wearing our displays, we won't really need to carry them around or mount them on walls.

With HDMI cables, if you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. Also, while anecdote is the "singular of data" your personal anecdote isn't data. When you conflate your anecdote with data and then decide someone else's anecdote isn't data, you earn a place on my ignore list.
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For those of us who are in our final 10 years(more or less), I sure wish this stuff would come around sooner than later.
I'm with you Jim; I recently puchased an LG 79UB9800 as an interim display hoping to see a reasonably priced OLED 85 incher in two or three years. I think it's just within the realm of possibility that could happen.
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post #12921 of 12923 Unread Today, 02:49 PM
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Boy try to say something nice about the current state of OLED (all is well, we're exactly where we should be) and even that gets people riled.

And, yes, plasma took 30+ years before you could really buy a TV. Of course, while OLED research began arguably in the 1950s, with 1960 as sort of a turning point, the first OLED device generally dates back to 1987. That's 26 years from first device --> first commercial TV offering (let's just ignore the XEL-1 and the small LGs, neither of which came anywhere near close to 10,000 units).

For plasma, an arguably corresponding timeframe was 1964 --> 1995. 31 years.

LCD is trickier. We could sort of argue 1972 --> 1988. That would seem "short" at 16 years. But that would then concede 14-inch TVs are some sort of grail. It would not be until around 2003 that a 40-inch LCD was actually viable. Hmm, that's 31 years. I don't really think that's a coincidence.

So when someone starts talking about emissive quantum-dot displays, which unlike pretty much everything else (maybe MEMS-type shutter displays of various kind?!?) have at least been theorized and demoed in monochromatic at tiny sizes, I can speculate with the benefit of hindsight pretty well. We won't have emissive quantum-dot displays in the 2010s. We are very unlikely to have them in the 2020s even if -- like OLED -- they utilize significant parts of the LCD infrastructure. Sometime very late in the next decade or into the 2030s is plausible.

Do we need that technology? Only if it's discontinuously better or cheaper.* Because OLED (and LCD) are going to continuing improving and getting less expensive every year with volume.

* And even then, perhaps not. Futurists are now beginning to believe that AR technology (and to an extent VR) will begin to supplant displays as we currently know them. This won't happen immediately of course, but if we end up wearing our displays, we won't really need to carry them around or mount them on walls.
Speaking as an owner of a current-generation WOLED TV, it seems to me this entire discussion about QD OLEDs is misplaced.

LG's progress on all of the scary concerns regarding OLED TVs has been pretty remarkable:
-lifetime appears to be acceptable
-image-retention / burn-in appears to be a non-issue

In terms of spec/capability, WOLED is well-positioned:
-brightness is far closer to LED/LCD than plasma
-color gamut is already 99% DCI-P3 (over 100% Rec.709)
-4K resolution is now the standard (impossible on plasma)

And all of this is in the context of actually delivering the truly 'perfect' blacks that plasma could only aspire to (and FALD LED/LCD can never reach) and at a price premium which has been steadily decreasing and will be less than 50% this year (only 17% premium if you want to use the $7000 65E6B OLED versus the $6000 R65 FALD LED/LCD as the benchmark).

So I don't understand all of this focus on QD OLED - there are only 2-3 areas where the current crop of WOLEDs are a step behind the best FALD LED/LCDs and these are more important areas for LG to deliver improvements:

-Motion: WOLED is still a step behind LED/LCD in terms of persistence-based motion blur and occasional stuttering which has never been well-explained. Especially with the increased peak brightness they are delivering, WOLED should be able to at least match LED/LCD through BFI/scanning and state-of-the-art processing (which it appears LG lacks) but this gets mentioned year after year without any signs of improvement.

-Near-Black Uniformity and Greyscale Resolution: this in my view is the greatest fundamental limitation of current-generation WOLED technology, and while LG appears to be making some small incremental steps in improving the way they manage this limitation, they will never be able to truly exploit the benefit of the perfect blacks WOLED can deliver without at least matching LCD in terms of near-black uniformity. I'm pretty confident that if even 10% of the engineering effort is put into compensating for these limitations though techniquess including temporal dithering, spatial dithering, compensation processing, etc... that has been put into plasma technology to address similar technical limitations, WOLED will be able to deliver the same jaw-dropping image quality with the lights off that it is able to deliver with some lights on, but that is not the case today.

-Near-White Uniformity & Off-Axis Performance: this is not an issue that I consider anywhere close to being as important as the other two, but for plasma purists, current-generation WOLED does not deliver the same near-white uniformity when viewed off-angle as does a reference plasma. Between the on-axis white uniformity (which has improved but is still not perfect currently) and the shifts in whitepoint when viewed off-axis, WOLED has a remaining area to deliver improvements (though since WOLED is already superior to FALD LED/LCD in terms of off-axis viewing performance, this is not a potential Achilles Heel ).

Rather than talking about wild-goose chases into the technical weeds of further improvements to a wide-color-gamut which already exceeds the requirements of available content, I'd like to see some speculation as to why LG is still so far behind in the emmissive-display processing department and when they are finally going to bring some good ex-plasma image quality engineers onto their team.

It's as though LG is using their LCD team to develop all of the picture quality processing of their WOLED TVs...

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post #12922 of 12923 Unread Today, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
-4K resolution is now the standard (impossible on plasma)
Pretty sure not impossible on plasma. Just really expensive.

http://gizmodo.com/5442012/panasonic...biggest-tv-yet

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post #12923 of 12923 Unread Today, 03:31 PM
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Pretty sure not impossible on plasma. Just really expensive.

http://gizmodo.com/5442012/panasonic...biggest-tv-yet
Didn't read the link, but I'm pretty sure it was 'impossible' when the European TV power consumption standards/limitations were taken into account .
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