OLED TVs: Technology Advancements Thread - Page 445 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews

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post #13321 of 13473 Old 10-28-2016, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post
There is a juli article which states that Kateeva will supply OLED TV deposition system prototypes later this year to customers in Korea, China and Japan. Looks to me like checking out these prototypes and see if they can be of any use in the near future is all that these customers will do.
http://www.oled-info.com/kateevas-ko...-oled-tvs-2018


btw in the article Kateeva states that Samsung wil use these printers for OLED mass production two years from now. According the other article LG will start printer mass production in 2019. I find all of this hard to believe..
You should find it hard to believe. It's, incidentally, perfect possible to test all this with existing soluble blue OLED materials. What you can't do is mass produce anything with them given that darned blue problem -- and this isn't a small problem, the progress in the past decade is close to invisible.

I suggest anyone interested in inkjet printed OLEDs set up a Google news alert for "blue OLED solution" "blue OLED soluble" and "blue OLED inkjet". You'll get a few garbage hits, but if you get the one real one, "UDC/Merck/XYZ announced commercial availability of a soluble blue OLED emitter with 10,000 hour lifetime" you'll know what's possible.

Until then, Kateeva is basically selling machines that can't be used for any commercial purpose.

BTW, tgm, what you propose may not be out of the question but it feels unlikely. Seems like a lot of waste, for one. But also it's a solution (no pun intended) in search of a problem. The world doesn't need inkjet OLEDs. It has OLEDs made easily with super-high-tech silkscreening that can be scaled up to all portable display sizes. It has a clunky but workable method for TVs that has already yielded big ones for less money that expensive full array LCDs. We're good.

Now, do we want more OLED competition brought on by inkjets? Sure it would be nice. I still think folding screens would be nice to allow my smartphone to expand to tablet-sized. But I don't need either; and neither does anyone else.

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post #13322 of 13473 Old 10-28-2016, 06:00 PM
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Seems like they're always a couple of years away from printing OLEDs.
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post #13323 of 13473 Old 10-29-2016, 03:32 AM
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Seems like they're always a couple of years away from printing OLEDs.
Recall this statement by skipping 'always' to avoid being cited for epic wrong forecast . Information about LG IJOLED pilot production line in H1 2017 means the technology is ready and on track for mass manufacturing ramp-up in 2018-19. LG would not leak such information if they are not confident and their fantastic performance on scaling up OLED production to 100 000 panels per month and 80% yield adds credibility.
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post #13324 of 13473 Old 10-29-2016, 03:55 AM
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Originally Posted by irkuck View Post
Recall this statement by skipping 'always' to avoid being cited for epic wrong forecast . Information about LG IJOLED pilot production line in H1 2017 means the technology is ready and on track for mass manufacturing ramp-up in 2018-19.
Nonsense. Find evidence the blue material exists.

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LG would not leak such information if they are not confident and their fantastic performance on scaling up OLED production to 100 000 panels per month and 80% yield adds credibility.
Um, ok.

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post #13325 of 13473 Old 10-29-2016, 04:11 AM
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Nonsense. Find evidence the blue material exists.
How about the blue in the current LG OLEDs ?
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post #13326 of 13473 Old 10-29-2016, 03:51 PM
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How about the blue in the current LG OLEDs ?
We're talking about soluble blue, no?

Thought #AYB: If you choose to buy the very brightest of TVs, are you nitpicking?
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post #13327 of 13473 Old 10-30-2016, 04:28 AM
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post
We're talking about soluble blue, no?
What I am implying is the LG could manage to find an innovative solution involving some kind of 'indirect' blue. Similar story was with the current OLED. Samsung was maniacally pursuing the most obvious, natural and simple RGB colors which in the end proved to be nonviable while LG took an innovative indirect WOLED approach and here we are today. Now, purists will tell a pure RGB would be better and that is true but in the end something which is real is better than a pipedream .
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post #13328 of 13473 Old 10-30-2016, 05:37 AM
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Originally Posted by irkuck View Post
What I am implying is the LG could manage to find an innovative solution involving some kind of 'indirect' blue. Similar story was with the current OLED. Samsung was maniacally pursuing the most obvious, natural and simple RGB colors which in the end proved to be nonviable while LG took an innovative indirect WOLED approach and here we are today. Now, purists will tell a pure RGB would be better and that is true but in the end something which is real is better than a pipedream .
Speculating what LG might do is just that....speculation.

Mind as well be speculating about mice on Mars.
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post #13329 of 13473 Old 10-30-2016, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by irkuck View Post
What I am implying is the LG could manage to find an innovative solution involving some kind of 'indirect' blue. Similar story was with the current OLED. Samsung was maniacally pursuing the most obvious, natural and simple RGB colors which in the end proved to be nonviable while LG took an innovative indirect WOLED approach and here we are today. Now, purists will tell a pure RGB would be better and that is true but in the end something which is real is better than a pipedream .
That seems to me to be an odd implication to make: "An invention was made before, why not again?" (??) In any case, LG didn't invent the stack approach, Kodak did. Unless you mean that Kateeva's innovative approach might include buying the appropriate patent that they can't seem to find yet.

Thought #AYB: If you choose to buy the very brightest of TVs, are you nitpicking?
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post #13330 of 13473 Old 10-30-2016, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by JimP View Post
Speculating what LG might do is just that....speculation. Mind as well be speculating about mice on Mars.
This speculation is based on the fact LG is starting pilot production lines of IJOLED in H1'17. Some question this is possible as liquid blue OLED dye is not available. Now LG would not be starting pilot production not having blue color for display. Logic then tells they should have intelligent solution for blue and the speculation looks quite plausible.
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post #13331 of 13473 Old 10-30-2016, 01:55 PM
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To be clear, even if someone wanted to build WOLEDs with ink-jet printing, they need a soluble blue.

And you may ask yourself well how did I get here?
And you may ask yourself am I right? Am I wrong?
And you may say to yourself: What have I done?!
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post #13332 of 13473 Old 10-30-2016, 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post
To be clear, even if someone wanted to build WOLEDs with ink-jet printing, they need a soluble blue.
There is no point in making an ink jet printed WOLED. The sole purpose of ink jet printing is to pattern the separate red, gren and blue subpixels.

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Samsung - Galaxy TabPro S 2-in-1 12" OLED Touch-Screen Laptop - 256GB - Gold
$999
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/samsung-...?skuId=5507808
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post
Like I said, $1000

But seriously, that's an interesting machine. Not one that will set the world on fire, but an interesting machine.
Price already down to $899 at Best Buy.


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Originally Posted by irkuck View Post
Information about LG IJOLED pilot production line in H1 2017 means the technology is ready and on track for mass manufacturing ramp-up in 2018-19. LG would not leak such information if they are not confident and their fantastic performance on scaling up OLED production to 100 000 panels per month and 80% yield adds credibility.
Kind of like Samsung was confident in building their OLED TV pilot line in 2012?
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post #13333 of 13473 Old 10-30-2016, 11:58 PM
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There is no point in making an ink jet printed WOLED. The sole purpose of ink jet printing is to pattern the separate red, gren and blue subpixels.
Actually, that's not the purpose at all. The purpose is to lower materials cost and increase yields.

But we do agree completely this wouldn't be used for WOLED. I was just pointing out there is no OLED variant that can be inkjet printed since 100% of them need soluble blue which does not exist in any commercial version.
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Kind of like Samsung was confident in building their OLED TV pilot line in 2012?
Exactly. Never trust a liar.

Incidentally, anyone who believes there a stealth breakthrough to solve the blue problem might want to read this:

http://www.ipnomics.net/?p=16189

Note that it's (a) very recent and (b) a public statement about the state of blue OLED (which still has no phosphorescent product let alone a soluble one).

Quote:
"He also showed his confidence in OLED blue phosphor materials, as well as materials for printed OLED which remains hardly commercialized around the world due to a high technology barrier.

“Currently, manufactures are facing many challenges in OLED like material, process and production and among these, manufacturing a blue phosphor material is a big challenge. But we will be able to unveil a product to ensure the longer life cycle of OLED panels within two to three years,” he stressed.

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post #13334 of 13473 Old 10-31-2016, 09:58 AM
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Actually, that's not the purpose at all. The purpose is to lower materials cost and increase yields.

But we do agree completely this wouldn't be used for WOLED. I was just pointing out there is no OLED variant that can be inkjet printed since 100% of them need soluble blue which does not exist in any commercial version.
Yes, the much discussed materials cost savings of inkjet printing. Every article says its so. It makes sense .. so much expensive materials wasted on the shadow mask. Its just that on current displays, the total cost of the materials (not royalties based on display price) they are talking about inkjet printing is about 2% of the cost of production. So saving 50% on those materials saves about 1% of the display cost. Ok. It has to be among the most overhyped cost savings in displays. It's fair to say inkjet printing yields could be greater than the really low RGB shadow mask yields at gen 8 and larger sizes. I'm not convinced why patterning with inkjet printing will have better yields than painting the whole substrate for WOLED though.

But I meant the functional purpose of inkjet printing is to deposit a patterned subpixel and the purpose of WOLED is to not require patterned subpixels. So why inkjet print WOLED.

As you say, though, it doesn't matter until there's a soluble blue material. There may be someday just not today.

Irkuck makes an interesting point about why they made it public. Lots of work happens that isn't made public. One possible reason is to signal to Chinese panel makers thinking about investing in 10.5 gen LCD lines that they may face competition from 10 gen OLED lines.
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post #13335 of 13473 Old 10-31-2016, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post
Incidentally, anyone who believes there a stealth breakthrough to solve the blue problem might want to read this:
http://www.ipnomics.net/?p=16189
Note that it's (a) very recent and (b) a public statement about the state of blue OLED (which still has no phosphorescent product let alone a soluble one).
If somebody missed how the story about IJOLED entered this thread, it is from the same outlet which rogo is citing:
http://www.ipnomics.net/?p=16358
and goes like this:

LG Display is going to carry out pilot production for inkjet printing OLEDs sometime during first half of 2017. Although it will take another one to two years from pilot production to actual mass-production, it is meaningful in that LG Display has actually in a stage of development after finishing up with R&D.


The blue text clearly implies the blue problem is solved and it is rather unlikely this publication would get it out of the blue (pun intended.
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post #13336 of 13473 Old 10-31-2016, 04:21 PM
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Yes, the much discussed materials cost savings of inkjet printing. Every article says its so. It makes sense .. so much expensive materials wasted on the shadow mask. Its just that on current displays, the total cost of the materials (not royalties based on display price) they are talking about inkjet printing is about 2% of the cost of production. So saving 50% on those materials saves about 1% of the display cost. Ok. It has to be among the most overhyped cost savings in displays. It's fair to say inkjet printing yields could be greater than the really low RGB shadow mask yields at gen 8 and larger sizes. I'm not convinced why patterning with inkjet printing will have better yields than painting the whole substrate for WOLED though.
I want to again be clear, we generally agree on this. The cost savings are minimal (no matter what Merck says) and the yield advantage is hypothetical only (no matter what anyone says).
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But I meant the functional purpose of inkjet printing is to deposit a patterned subpixel and the purpose of WOLED is to not require patterned subpixels. So why inkjet print WOLED.
Again, we are in perfect agreement. I mentioned it only so no one would ask without it already being answered. Not everyone understands how the tech all works.
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As you say, though, it doesn't matter until there's a soluble blue material. There may be someday just not today.
Correct.
Quote:
Irkuck makes an interesting point about why they made it public. Lots of work happens that isn't made public. One possible reason is to signal to Chinese panel makers thinking about investing in 10.5 gen LCD lines that they may face competition from 10 gen OLED lines.
It's possible that's the case, though a coming 10G fab is hardly news. The 2018 fab is ~10G, whatever method it uses (which every intelligent person should bet is almost identical to the existing vapor-deposited WOLED).

I have no idea why they made it public, but LG doesn't seem to be a primary materials researcher and none of those that are has even suggested there is a soluble blue. The one thing we've heard in the past is the idea of a franken-hybrid using vapor deposited blue and then inkjet printed red and green. I could envision ways in which this is possible, but as I'm not a display-fab engineer I can only guess they might work. I also doubt they are economical, but who knows.

Quote:
Originally Posted by irkuck View Post
If somebody missed how the story about IJOLED entered this thread, it is from the same outlet which rogo is citing:
http://www.ipnomics.net/?p=16358
and goes like this:

LG Display is going to carry out pilot production for inkjet printing OLEDs sometime during first half of 2017. Although it will take another one to two years from pilot production to actual mass-production, it is meaningful in that LG Display has actually in a stage of development after finishing up with R&D.


The blue text clearly implies the blue problem is solved and it is rather unlikely this publication would get it out of the blue (pun intended.
You can keep believing this. I don't really care one way or the other. I'm just pointed out a soluble blue OLED with lifespan in the 1000s of hours (let alone the 10,000s) would be news. It would be a big deal for a Merck. Or a UDC. Or DuPont. Or CDT. No one even seems to have a recent paper, let alone a product.

Maybe LG itself has cooked something up in its lab and feels like it can mass produce that in 2-3 years. Their own failure to deliver on deadlines should make people skeptical of a claim like that, should they actually make a claim like that.

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post #13337 of 13473 Old 11-03-2016, 01:11 AM
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Should one expect visible PQ improvements in the 2017 OLEDs comparing to this year sets or it is rather stagnation to be seen?
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post #13338 of 13473 Old 11-03-2016, 08:01 AM
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Should one expect visible PQ improvements in the 2017 OLEDs comparing to this year sets or it is rather stagnation to be seen?
OLED has improved every year and I doubt next year will be any different. I would expect better handling of near-black and higher brightness in next year's models at a minimum.
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post #13339 of 13473 Old 11-03-2016, 08:35 AM
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OLED has improved every year and I doubt next year will be any different. I would expect better handling of near-black and higher brightness in next year's models at a minimum.
agree and probably another of the Hdr variants like HLG....the HFR..frame rate thing that as being talked about may or may not be added...no one knows on that yet.
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post #13340 of 13473 Old 11-03-2016, 02:00 PM
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Should one expect visible PQ improvements in the 2017 OLEDs comparing to this year sets or it is rather stagnation to be seen?
You would expect with there still being issues, that they'll be improving or eliminating them.

The fact is, we don't really know.
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post #13341 of 13473 Old 11-04-2016, 08:04 PM
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You would expect with there still being issues, that they'll be improving or eliminating them.

The fact is, we don't really know.
Of course we really don't know. Wondering what will come is the fun part
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post #13342 of 13473 Old 11-05-2016, 09:24 AM
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Yes great fun but only if you have not already invested in this years OLED

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Does anyone have any idea what LG's plans are for future 1080p panels? There are so many 4K models that I can't help but think 1080p displays are being phased out.
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Does anyone have any idea what LG's plans are for future 1080p panels? There are so many 4K models that I can't help but think 1080p displays are being phased out.


There is no turning back from 4K on the high-end.


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There is no turning back from 4K on the high-end.
Top DVDs played on an OPPO 93 and displayed on an EC9300 at 4 feet look as good or better than average Blu-rays. Average DVDs are quite watchable with no distracting artifacts.

There are many films I haven't seen yet that are not on Blu-ray. How do DVDs look at 5 feet on a 65" 4K OLED?

I don't expect SD TV to be watchable under these conditions, but it's too soon to declare DVD totally obsolete.
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post #13346 of 13473 Old 11-06-2016, 09:54 AM
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Top DVDs played on an OPPO 93 and displayed on an EC9300 at 4 feet look as good or better than average Blu-rays. Average DVDs are quite watchable with no distracting artifacts.

There are many films I haven't seen yet that are not on Blu-ray. How do DVDs look at 5 feet on a 65" 4K OLED?

I don't expect SD TV to be watchable under these conditions, but it's too soon to declare DVD totally obsolete.

DVD's and BD's are not obsolete but in the TV market, OLED and LED/LCD 4K TV's represent the high-end of the market.
Even in mid-priced TV's are 4K.

Plasma TV's demise was hastened by 4K, where they could not compete.

LG used to make 1080P OLEDs and now only 4K.

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post #13347 of 13473 Old 11-06-2016, 10:15 AM
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Does anyone have any idea what LG's plans are for future 1080p panels? There are so many 4K models that I can't help but think 1080p displays are being phased out.
They are being phased out. LG already announced a year ago no more 1080p OLED's.
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post #13348 of 13473 Old 11-10-2016, 03:56 PM
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OLED has improved every year and I doubt next year will be any different. I would expect better handling of near-black and higher brightness in next year's models at a minimum.
And LG will probably also fill the gap with Vizio as far as supporting Atmos-over-ARC.

After a 9-month hiatus from the Forum, I'm trying to catch up in terms of developments and anticipated developments that might impact a decision of pulling the trigger on a B6/C6 now versus holding off for the 2017 OLEDs to be released.

Progress on pricing has obviously been dramatic (65" OLED for $3000 everywhere, getting into the low $2000s online), but have their been any other developments in OLED-world over the past 9-months that I should be aware of before finalizing a decision?
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post #13349 of 13473 Old 11-10-2016, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
After a 9-month hiatus from the Forum, I'm trying to catch up in terms of developments and anticipated developments that might impact a decision of pulling the trigger on a B6/C6 now versus holding off for the 2017 OLEDs to be released...

...have their been any other developments in OLED-world over the past 9-months that I should be aware of before finalizing a decision?
While I've been back for several months deciding on a new pre/pro I'm not as up to speed on flat panels. I first narrowed my attention on the value proposition (Vizio P65) and then the P75 came down in price at Costco and I thought that might be the way to go but then it struck me that the price point I was considering was now in the OLED category and I'm wondering the same thing.

ck

Last edited by Chris Kane; 11-10-2016 at 08:05 PM.
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post #13350 of 13473 Old 11-10-2016, 08:47 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
And LG will probably also fill the gap with Vizio as far as supporting Atmos-over-ARC.

After a 9-month hiatus from the Forum, I'm trying to catch up in terms of developments and anticipated developments that might impact a decision of pulling the trigger on a B6/C6 now versus holding off for the 2017 OLEDs to be released.

Progress on pricing has obviously been dramatic (65" OLED for $3000 everywhere, getting into the low $2000s online), but have their been any other developments in OLED-world over the past 9-months that I should be aware of before finalizing a decision?
We really dont have any concrete details on the 2017 models. There was an article over the summer talking about LGD shifting from a blue/yellow/blue stack to a RGB stack (still WOLED), but we dont know the potential impact on performance.

Personally, my WAG is that we will see a 1000+ nit panel with better near black performance and a wider color gamut (though still well short of Rec2020). I am skeptical that we will see the various motion related improvements that I have see referenced on various threads. Brightness and lifetime will be LGD's primary focus for improvement.

Waiting another year will always get you some improvements and a cheaper price but like Rogo, I would now recommend the OLED's to my friends and family....even those that arent AV geeks.
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