OLED TVs: Technology Advancements Thread - Page 449 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews

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post #13441 of 13468 Old 11-21-2016, 11:32 AM
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{chucklechucklechuckle...} (<------not so subtle reference to our prior 3D arguments, :-P)




Feel free to bold that one yourself next time.... The @#$%ers....




Yeah...........I'm dubious of stuff like that. It isn't guaranteed to be the case in every C6P IMO. I suspect when things like component-level guts get "verified" that it's more a matter of what component deal LG made at the moment, not what is guaranteed to be in every display as if it were part of some spec.
Support for 3D requires LGs custom SOC. The (presumably cheaper) 3rd party SOC cant't support it.

I'd held out hope that the B6 had the 3D polarizing filters in place and could be upgraded (or hacked) to support 3D at some point in the future, but when I read about the use of a different SOC for the B, that was the last nail in the budget flat OLED 3D column.

Decided the get Stat Trek Beyond 3D Bluray and Batman vs Superman Dolby Vision on VUDU - will be interesting to see which presentation generates the most WOW factor with my crew...
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post #13442 of 13468 Old 11-30-2016, 12:15 AM
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First Chinese-made OLED TV panel used in new Skyworth TVs

http://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php...&id=1480485630
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post #13443 of 13468 Old 11-30-2016, 04:28 PM
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First Chinese-made OLED TV panel used in new Skyworth TVs

http://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php...&id=1480485630
"China’s TCL is also planning to set up a display plant capable of producing OLED panels starting from 2019."

If true, that would be a significant development and the first objective indication that OLED TV is here to stay...
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post #13444 of 13468 Old 11-30-2016, 05:43 PM
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I can't say I've been very happy or excited about the idea of Chinese Electronics playing a bigger, perhaps even dominant role in the future. I'm sure many of you have heard my reasons and concerns about that before. Now that said... if China is really the only way OLED TV's have a future beyond LG then I guess I have hope for the best and give China credit
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post #13445 of 13468 Old 11-30-2016, 06:47 PM
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So BOE mass production at the earliest in 2018.

TCL at the earliest in 2020.

But still, I'd say these are generally bullish moves.
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post #13446 of 13468 Old 11-30-2016, 07:19 PM
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China is pouring tens of billions into OLED capacity. You are going to see massive overcapacity in LTPS OLED's sometime in 2019 or 2020. The smartphone market wont be able to absorb it all and we are likely going to see some really cheap OLED enabled laptops/tablets.

Televisions are farther out but it looks like China plans on following the same path. They will spend large amounts on capex well before they have the technical expertise to justify the expense. That should nicely solve the chicken or egg scenario and will end up benefitting consumers but I'm not sure how the rest of the industry is going to survive (ex LG who should have a substantial technical lead).
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post #13447 of 13468 Old 11-30-2016, 10:38 PM
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So since LG pretty much owns WOLED, does that mean this Chinese OLED panel is RGB?
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post #13448 of 13468 Old 11-30-2016, 11:50 PM
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Televisions are farther out but it looks like China plans on following the same path. They will spend large amounts on capex well before they have the technical expertise to justify the expense. That should nicely solve the chicken or egg scenario and will end up benefitting consumers but I'm not sure how the rest of the industry is going to survive (ex LG who should have a substantial technical lead).
I presume you similarly like Samsung in mobile for the same reasons you like LG in TV -- substantial technical lead.

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post #13449 of 13468 Old Yesterday, 02:16 AM
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Despite the OLED fanfares don't bury the LCD yet. I told you it is an extremely adaptable technology and it shows once again.
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post #13450 of 13468 Old Yesterday, 02:53 AM
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That Panasonic tech isn't coming to consumers
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post #13451 of 13468 Old Yesterday, 06:04 AM
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I presume you similarly like Samsung in mobile for the same reasons you like LG in TV -- substantial technical lead.
Yes. They will have to move fast though because the mobile OLED capacity is coming on earlier and there is more of it.

This graph is from the OLED Association and is strictly LTPS OLED capacity (mobile).



The Korean press is already talking about how Samsung and LGD are organizing themselves to withdraw from LCD production. That wont happen overnight but that seems to be the path they are on. I have no idea what the Japanese and Taiwanese suppliers do unless they get some sort of R&D miracle (microLED/printing OLED's/QLED).
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post #13452 of 13468 Old Yesterday, 06:29 AM
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Despite the OLED fanfares don't bury the LCD yet. I told you it is an extremely adaptable technology and it shows once again.
It isnt that LCD's arent adaptable. The question is the cost. The fact that they dont even mention televisions tells you everything you need to know.

http://news.panasonic.com/global/pre...n161128-4.html

Suitable applications:

High-end monitors for broadcasting, video production, medical, automotive, and other fields


PR departments arent in the habit of hiding breakthroughs for their biggest potential market.
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post #13453 of 13468 Old Yesterday, 06:33 AM
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Not to mention Panasonic is barely hanging on in consumer TV's.
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post #13454 of 13468 Old Yesterday, 07:57 AM
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What I find intriguing about this is that BOE is one of the investors in Kateeva

Could it be they are planning on using printing technology for the panel production? As Rogo has pointed out many times, we still don't have adequate lifetimes for soluble OLED materials so printing technology hasn't yet arrived. Nevertheless, I wouldn't be surprised if they are planning to use Kateeva's printing technology.
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post #13455 of 13468 Old Yesterday, 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by slacker711 View Post
It isnt that LCD's arent adaptable. The question is the cost. The fact that they dont even mention televisions tells you everything you need to know.
http://news.panasonic.com/global/pre...n161128-4.html
Suitable applications: High-end monitors for broadcasting, video production, medical, automotive, and other fields
PR departments arent in the habit of hiding breakthroughs for their biggest potential market.
It is most likely the cost is not a barrier here. Panasonic does not have resources and capabilities to start full scale manufacturing of TV LCD panels competing with Chinese and Koreans. They are thus trying to carve a niche in special applications which they can fill without being endangered by the giants. The only way of getting into TV panel manufacturing would be through licensing agreements. That may happen but depends on huge number of factors. For example the giants are not interested since they prefer own developments like OLED or QLED. It would be amazing if the technology Panasonic developed is inherently very expensive in mass production.
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post #13456 of 13468 Old Yesterday, 10:59 AM
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It is most likely the cost is not a barrier here.
I have always found that what companies dont say tells you at least as much as what they do say. You can never trust everything in a PR, but when they leave something out there is a very good reason.

In this case, I have no idea what Panasonic's "light modulating cells" entails. What does this do to yields? Can you manufacture this on a-si backplanes or do you need LTPS?

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That may happen but depends on huge number of factors. For example the giants are not interested since they prefer own developments like OLED or QLED. It would be amazing if the technology Panasonic developed is inherently very expensive in mass production.
I think you are misunderstanding the dynamics of the current display industry. Sharp, Innolux, and AUO have no current roadmap for success. They dont have the cash or the expertise for OLED's and they arent leading on the QLED front either.

They would kill for a technology that allows them to continue to be competitive while using their existing LCD facilities. Panasonic wouldnt have a moment's issue finding LCD capacity to bring this to the consumer market....if that was actually their plan.
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post #13457 of 13468 Old Yesterday, 01:01 PM
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I'm intrigued by a couple of things here:

1) That LG's mobile OLED capacity appears poised to approach Samsung's (maybe not match but close).

2) That the chart above holds out little hope for Japan Display and Sharp/Innolux as important mobile-OLED players. Apple can help both if they have a business elsewhere; it can't realistically support even one unless there is also a move to iPad OLEDs soon.

3) I'm still waiting on any evidence printing is possible. And by possible I mean not that Kateeva can demonstrate it (they can) but that someone can produce a commercially viable display on a printed line with a soluble blue. There is still no press release from anyone. Nor any roadmap.

4) The MicroLED stuff is intriguing for really small displays right now but not much more. Could that change over the next 5 years? Yes, though again I'd watch Apple. They're clearly intrigued about the tech for both performance reasons (1) and not-Samsung reasons (2). If they should any commitment to advancing it, that's a good sign. If they don't, I doubt it goes anywhere.

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post #13458 of 13468 Old Yesterday, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by slacker711 View Post
It isnt that LCD's arent adaptable. The question is the cost. The fact that they dont even mention televisions tells you everything you need to know.

http://news.panasonic.com/global/pre...n161128-4.html

Suitable applications:

High-end monitors for broadcasting, video production, medical, automotive, and other fields


PR departments arent in the habit of hiding breakthroughs for their biggest potential market.
This sounds a whole lot like the 'dual-LCD' approach that has been demonstrated by someone in the past.

Take an IPS LCD technology with contrast ratio of 1000:1 and one switching cell per colored subpixel.

Now create a second plane from the same technology with only one larger switching call per pixel.

Voila - a stack of these two 1000:1 planes creates a macro-plane with 1,000,000:1 contrast ratio.

I mean, they practically say as much:

"Panasonic's new high-contrast IPS panel uses newly developed light-modulating cells, which operate based on the operating principle of liquid crystals, and these cells are integrated into the display cells. As a result, it is capable of controlling the amount of backlight entering the display cells pixel by pixel, thus achieving a contrast ratio of 1,000,000:1."

I'm sure it will deliver the performance promised but suspect it is not going to be cost-competetive...
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post #13459 of 13468 Old Yesterday, 06:46 PM
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Sounds right to me too. Had this been advanced 5-7 years ago, it could well have been cost competitive. It would have had time to get mass produced and the increment to your typical $700 55-inch LCD might not be very much at 10MM scale. Alas, it's 2016 and that ship has sailed.
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post #13460 of 13468 Old Yesterday, 08:11 PM
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This sounds a whole lot like the 'dual-LCD' approach that has been demonstrated by someone in the past.

Take an IPS LCD technology with contrast ratio of 1000:1 and one switching cell per colored subpixel.

Now create a second plane from the same technology with only one larger switching call per pixel.

Voila - a stack of these two 1000:1 planes creates a macro-plane with 1,000,000:1 contrast ratio.
Any idea about the loss in luminance when going through the liquid crystal layer? Doubling that may be part of the issue. With HDR, I doubt you can drive the LED's much harder so you would need to increase the number of LED's. That would hit both power consumption and cost.

FALD alone might have an issue competing with OLED's based on cost. As you layer on new costs to try and improve the performance you end up with an even less competitive solution. The Z9D looks like a great TV, but Sony will have to cut the price of the 65" model almost in half next year to make it anything but a niche TV.
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post #13461 of 13468 Old Yesterday, 08:41 PM
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I'm intrigued by a couple of things here:

1) That LG's mobile OLED capacity appears poised to approach Samsung's (maybe not match but close).
There has to be some guess work in that estimate since LGD has yet to officially announce the capacity of their P10 fab that is for both flexible OLED's and TV's. $9 billion should buy you quite a bit of capacity though. They recently said that they expect half of their revenue to come from OLED's in 2020.

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2) That the chart above holds out little hope for Japan Display and Sharp/Innolux as important mobile-OLED players. Apple can help both if they have a business elsewhere; it can't realistically support even one unless there is also a move to iPad OLEDs soon.
That's my thought as well. If they go ahead and build OLED capacity, it will come on-line right when China is ramping up. Taiwan/Japanese suppliers are stuck between a rock and a hard place.

Their only realistic options are guarantees from Apple, but that wont save everybody.

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3) I'm still waiting on any evidence printing is possible. And by possible I mean not that Kateeva can demonstrate it (they can) but that someone can produce a commercially viable display on a printed line with a soluble blue. There is still no press release from anyone. Nor any roadmap.
The only optimistic indication is the LGD pilot line but there isnt a hint about who might be supplying a soluble blue. They've barely figured out the vapour deposition blue so I'm skeptical that a soluble blue is close to reality. Maybe it is the hybrid display with some layers being printed and blue using vapor deposition. If so, I doubt that such a clunky solution will ever see the light of day.

Quote:
4) The MicroLED stuff is intriguing for really small displays right now but not much more. Could that change over the next 5 years? Yes, though again I'd watch Apple. They're clearly intrigued about the tech for both performance reasons (1) and not-Samsung reasons (2). If they should any commitment to advancing it, that's a good sign. If they don't, I doubt it goes anywhere.
It is hard to know what to make of microLED. There are hints and rumors coming out of Taiwan making it sound like it could be commercial in the next few years. I would disregard that completely except for the fact that Apple is the one pushing it. They dont publish anything so maybe they have made some progress? Who knows?
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post #13462 of 13468 Old Today, 07:36 AM
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This sounds a whole lot like the 'dual-LCD' approach that has been demonstrated by someone in the past.

Take an IPS LCD technology with contrast ratio of 1000:1 and one switching cell per colored subpixel.

Now create a second plane from the same technology with only one larger switching call per pixel.

Voila - a stack of these two 1000:1 planes creates a macro-plane with 1,000,000:1 contrast ratio,
Is that correct though?

The black does get blacker, but so does the white; a liquid crystal diode never lets everything though. That would keep the ratio of lowest:highest the same, no?

Also: This wouldn't this taller structure also halve the viewing angle?

Thought #AYB: If you choose to buy the very brightest of TVs, are you nitpicking?

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It is hard to know what to make of microLED. There are hints and rumors coming out of Taiwan making it sound like it could be commercial in the next few years. I would disregard that completely except for the fact that Apple is the one pushing it. They dont publish anything so maybe they have made some progress? Who knows?
Well, as one of the mini-legion of folks that have kept a candela (sic) burning for anything of the form "Crystal LED", I have to say that I'm overjoyed at the potential. Do you suppose that 4K was what kept it from showing up on the radar sooner?

Thought #AYB: If you choose to buy the very brightest of TVs, are you nitpicking?
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Presumably this is directly from IHS. If correct, this data would square the circle for me. Anecdotal evidence from AVS and sales rank data from Amazon indicates that LG is destroying Sony and Samsung's flagship models in sales...and yet LGD isnt raising their guidance and Samsung SUHD sales seem to be going well. I had thought that the explanation might be that high-end market was even smaller than we have speculated.

This makes more sense, though I dont have the explanation for why OLED's are doing so much better in the US. Perhaps LG's brand is stronger here? Distribution is weaker elsewhere (or matters more)?

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post #13465 of 13468 Old Today, 10:26 AM
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Is that correct though?

The black does get blacker, but so does the white; a liquid crystal diode never lets everything though. That would keep the ratio of lowest:highest the same, no?
No, because a black LCD pixel doesn't let through the same amount of light as a white LCD pixel, or else everything would look horrible, right? So let's say, crude example with made up numbers, a 0% (black) pixel passes through 1% of the light, but a 100% (white) pixel passes through 95% of the light. Single panel, 0.95 : 0.01 ratio = 95. Stacked, this would be 0.9025: 0.0001 ratio, or 9,025. (0.95 * 0.95, 0.01 * 0.01) So the contrast ratio still increases quite a bit.
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Is that correct though?

The black does get blacker, but so does the white; a liquid crystal diode never lets everything though. That would keep the ratio of lowest:highest the same, no?

Also: This wouldn't this taller structure also halve the viewing angle?
The two contrast Ratios Multiply, regardless of what level of light gets blocked.

Take an extreme case of 1000:1 CR letting at most 50% of the light through. So if the backlight is 2000 cd/m2 raw, white is 1000 cd/m2 peak and black is 1 cd/m2.

Add a second layer with the same raw backlights and now peak white drops to only 500 cd/m2 (your point and your concern) but black drops to 0.0005 cd/m2 (1,000,000:1 contrast ratio)

Double the raw lumen output of the backlight to 4000 cd/m2, and now you get peak white back to 1000 cd/m2 with black increasing to 0.001 cd/m2.

For a more real-world case where peak LCD transluninance is 90% or 95% or 98% or whatever it is in reality, the modest amount of increased raw lumen output needed to compensate for the light lost/blocked by the second LCD lightvalve C layer even when fully open is inconsequential...
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post #13467 of 13468 Old Today, 12:26 PM
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Presumably this is directly from IHS. If correct, this data would square the circle for me. Anecdotal evidence from AVS and sales rank data from Amazon indicates that LG is destroying Sony and Samsung's flagship models in sales...and yet LGD isnt raising their guidance and Samsung SUHD sales seem to be going well. I had thought that the explanation might be that high-end market was even smaller than we have speculated.

This makes more sense, though I dont have the explanation for why OLED's are doing so much better in the US. Perhaps LG's brand is stronger here? Distribution is weaker elsewhere (or matters more)?

If LG OLED has captured 2/3 of the US market for 65" TVs $3000 and above, and 3/4 of the US market for 55" TVs $2000 and above, this is huge and hopefully a solid indication that LGs OLED TV technology has finally 'rounded the corner' and is here to stay.

Between additional tarrifs, VAT, etc... the data for the rest of the world is much less important and unclear.

But if the US data is truly representative, this is huge.

And the agressiveness LG has shown on pricing this holiday season backs it up. Pricing of OLED TVs is about half of what it was a year ago and has become very competetive. The very fact that the premium for a 65" OLED over Vizio's P65 is now in the 20-30% range instead of 200-300% range speaks volumes.

I'd always expected this kind of agressive price reduction from LG if OLED was going to make it and was dissapointed that did not materialize a year ago.

Having slugged through a total of 4 defective 65EF9500s and now after only a few weeks with my new 65C6P (costing half as much ), it is clear to me that LG was not ready a year ago - the OLED technology was not yet ready for prime-time and LG knew it.

The 65C6P is a near-perfect TV. Near black uniformity is greatly improved and many bugs/nonlinearities impacting near-black performance have been fixed (the most egregious being excessive Vignetting which appears now to be largely resolved / greatly reduced).

If LG had hit the gas a year ago, they would have had a tsunami of unhappy customers and ended up with egg all over their face (and a likely commercial failure).

Between getting their ducks in a row addressing quality and performance issues, leap-frogging Vizio to an even more significant alliance with Dolby, and having the manufacturing capacity lined up to deliver increased volumes, it was masterful of LG to hold off until this season to make their passing move (in the premium 65"/$3000 & 55"/$2000 lanes).

Hopefully the coming years will allow us to observe whether the vaunted and yet theoretical cost advantages of OLED over LCD prove to be for real and are sustainable...
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post #13468 of 13468 Old Today, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by slacker711 View Post
Presumably this is directly from IHS. If correct, this data would square the circle for me. Anecdotal evidence from AVS and sales rank data from Amazon indicates that LG is destroying Sony and Samsung's flagship models in sales...and yet LGD isnt raising their guidance and Samsung SUHD sales seem to be going well. I had thought that the explanation might be that high-end market was even smaller than we have speculated.

This makes more sense, though I dont have the explanation for why OLED's are doing so much better in the US. Perhaps LG's brand is stronger here? Distribution is weaker elsewhere (or matters more)?

So, I wonder if the explanation isn't the Occam's Razor one here:

Is it possible that in Europe the ASPs of the LGs are relatively higher? In other words, the chart draws a bright line at X but LG sells at say 1.1x in the US and 1.5x in Europe. It's proportional share in Europe will be lower.

It does point out that (1) statistics are an amazing way to tell almost any story you want "In Europe, LG has captured 75% of the market for 65-inch displays over 3647 euro!" (2) that given a budget B, and a size S, once you can find an OLED inside that budget in the size you want, all other TVs are pretty much considered BS.

And you may ask yourself well how did I get here?
And you may ask yourself am I right? Am I wrong?
And you may say to yourself: What have I done?!
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Once you let the trolls run the bridge, you have a bridge run by trolls. I'll be back.
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Reply OLED Technology and Flat Panels General

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Led Hdtv , Lcd Hdtv , Plasma Hdtv , Oled Tv , Lg , Samsung

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