OLED TVs: Technology Advancements Thread - Page 450 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews

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post #13471 of 13495 Unread 12-03-2016, 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post
Well, as one of the mini-legion of folks that have kept a candela (sic) burning for anything of the form "Crystal LED", I have to say that I'm overjoyed at the potential. Do you suppose that 4K was what kept it from showing up on the radar sooner?
The higher resolution does make it harder, but there are other issues where size impacts yields. The rumors expect the Apple Watch to be first and even assuming success there, I would expect it will be a while before TV's are feasible.

Here is a decent article covering some of the issues.

http://www.asahi-optics.com/news/36.html

Eye opening quote.

Quote:
“Micro-LEDs require a high yield rate of more than 99.9999%, close to 100% in fact,” said PlayNitride CEO Charles Li.
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post #13472 of 13495 Unread 12-03-2016, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by slacker711 View Post
The higher resolution does make it harder, but there are other issues where size impacts yields. The rumors expect the Apple Watch to be first and even assuming success there, I would expect it will be a while before TV's are feasible.

Here is a decent article covering some of the issues.

http://www.asahi-optics.com/news/36.html

Eye opening quote.
They are talking primarily about assembly-related yield onto the backplane where each failure will result in a dead pixel;

"Micro-LEDs require a high yield rate of more than 99.9999%, close to 100% in fact,” said PlayNitride CEO Charles Li.
The reason behind this especially high demand is the issue of dead-pixels."


By way of reference, LGs WOLED spec is apparently somewhere between 5 and 10 dead pixels. A 4K display contains ~8M pixels, so an assembly yield of 99.9999% corresponds 0.00001% or about 8 bad pixels .
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post #13473 of 13495 Unread 12-03-2016, 02:38 PM
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The concept of True LED displays has been around for a long time but they've mostly been used strictly as very large billboards and theme park displays. Perhaps with a few advancments we'll see a few new proprietary LED based displays for niche things in the future, but I think it's got practically no chance of ever turning into a mainstream display technology for TV's, PC's, or mobile devices. For those devices I don't think we'll see anything besides LCD and OLED in the next 5 years. After that point if anything will come after them it's probably going to be QLED, unless somebody has some secret display tech cooking in a lab some where waiting ot be announced...
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post #13474 of 13495 Unread 12-04-2016, 08:22 AM
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I also look forward to the longevity and uniformity measurements.

Longevity in particular is going to be interesting. I remember as a kid asking about a red LED I saw: "What happens if that 'everything's ok' light on that ancient circuit board burns out." I was told: "That thing has been shining bright for 18 years. Don't ask me why, but these things don't burn out."

No clue if this relates to now.

Thought #AYI: The number of my facebook friends that are forwarding and liking articles without even reading them is astounding. Guys, these days, the tag line for an article is almost certainly click-bait. Let's get a little more responsible out there please.
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post #13475 of 13495 Unread 12-05-2016, 06:07 AM
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Anyone in Canada get the HDR Game Mode firmware update yet?? Been checking a couple times a day in the update menu, nothing coming up.
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post #13476 of 13495 Unread 12-05-2016, 07:35 AM
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SONY OLED AT CES 2017?

http://4k.com/news/rumors-spread-of-...january-17815/

We, The Unwilling, led by The Unknowing, are doing the impossible for The Ungrateful.
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post #13477 of 13495 Unread 12-05-2016, 10:09 PM
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Bad news to me. I am expecting a Sony 85" similar to the 75XZ9d to be announced but if Sony goes OLED , my hopes are gone. Chances are they will promote the OLED as the new flagship and never release anything high-end larger than 77". If they do, price will be crazy. LeEco 85" is cheap,FALD but....no Sony.

I was so happy without HDR...
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post #13478 of 13495 Unread 12-06-2016, 12:16 AM
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Putting LCD out to pasture in the high end would be good news. That horse has been beat long enough.
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post #13479 of 13495 Unread 12-06-2016, 12:21 AM
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Putting LCD out to pasture in the high end would be good news. That horse has been beat long enough.
I doubt LCD will be put out to pasture in the high end anytime soon. There are always going to be customers attracted to very bright TVs (especially those who watch with bright lights on).

But there is a new panel in town, and just for OLED to capture 51% market share at the high-end would be a pretty remarkable achievement...
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post #13480 of 13495 Unread 12-06-2016, 01:42 AM
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There will always be someone who wants it brighter...and I'm sure if a marketer said we've managed to match the output of the sun, some lemmings would jump at the prospect. That's fine. Let them overcomplicate LCD (with costly FALD implementations) to the point that they can no longer compete on price and form factor. As a former plasma fan, I will consider it comeuppance upon those who have mercilessly exploited a similar competitive manufacturing advantage over the past decade.
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post #13481 of 13495 Unread 12-06-2016, 01:53 AM
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Customers are generally attracted to brighter TV's but I've long suspected only to a point. We're in an era now were pretty much any TV can do 500 nits peak brightness at least. Once you get to that level things like showroom viewing and daytime viewing in living rooms aren't an issue for people anymore, and I think that's when most people stop caring about how much brighter the TV is and only a small percentage of videophiles want some 2000 nit display. You got people in the LCD forum complaining that TV's aren't 4000 nits yet... I can't help but laugh when I read that. My guess is most people don't want a 2000+ nit display in their living room, I really feel like a lot of people would call it over the top and/ or say it hurts their eyes. It will make them uncomfortable. This is one of the reasons I think HDR wont ever be as successful as some people on this site think it will be. 4-5K nits is just insane and the average persons TV will never be that bright. Most normal people want brightness for daytime viewing, not HDR, and if it's good enough to see clearly in the day then they will be very happy.
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Last edited by Vader1; 12-06-2016 at 01:58 AM.
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post #13482 of 13495 Unread 12-06-2016, 05:28 AM
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I think what we're forgetting is that the big number nits that's being discussed only applies to specular highlights using HDR.

That's not how we currently measure standard dynamic range displays.

I prefer a bright picture but even today's LEDs are have to be turned down to get a good picture.

One thing I'd want to take a look at is how OLED displays may or may not distort color at different APL levels. Kind of a big deal when the only way to have linear color tracking is when using an APL level that's darker than what you normally watch.
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post #13483 of 13495 Unread 12-06-2016, 06:55 AM
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From the general public's point of view, I truly doubt there's that huge a difference between LCD and OLED. The numbers are awfully close, and while I know that we folks here at AVS somehow think differently, I also think we folks at AVS have succumb to myopic reasoning many times before.

The TV market is driven by ever lower prices. And it will be a long time for OLED to catch up to the volume/learning-curve headstart of LCD. Videophiles aren't interested in lower end TVs. But videophiles simply don't drive the TV market.
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post #13484 of 13495 Unread 12-06-2016, 09:10 AM
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My point has nothing to do with brightness. I just want a large screen TV, over 80", with very good picture (FALD is OK) that I can afford. An Oled 85" would cost a fortune, that's why I mentioned Sony's decision not being good to me. Almost certainly Sony will show 65" or smaller with OLED tech.

I was so happy without HDR...
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post #13485 of 13495 Unread 12-06-2016, 09:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slimoli View Post
My point has nothing to do with brightness. I just want a large screen TV, over 80", with very good picture (FALD is OK) that I can afford. An Oled 85" would cost a fortune, that's why I mentioned Sony's decision not being good to me. Almost certainly Sony will show 65" or smaller with OLED tech.
Brightness allows for a shortened Sample-and-Hold frame length which decreases motion discomfort. Congruent to that, it also makes it ever more likely that HDR (which requires brightness) can work with a shortened frame length.

Thought #AYI: The number of my facebook friends that are forwarding and liking articles without even reading them is astounding. Guys, these days, the tag line for an article is almost certainly click-bait. Let's get a little more responsible out there please.
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post #13486 of 13495 Unread Yesterday, 06:33 AM
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Does anybody can confirm 100% if Sony 4K 55" OLED professional grading monitor is using Sony own OLED panel? They call panel type as Sony Trimaster EL OLED which suggests it is their own panel and Sony makes OLED panels of smaller size. If so it means Sony has an consumer size OLED panel. But Sony will be entering consumer OLED market with LG panels. If they do have their own 55" OLED panel it means their mastering of OLED technology is on the level of LG but their process may have too low yields and/or they do not have resources for building huge plants and competing with the LG.
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post #13487 of 13495 Unread Yesterday, 07:27 AM
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Does anybody can confirm 100% if Sony 4K 55" OLED professional grading monitor is using Sony own OLED panel? They call panel type as Sony Trimaster EL OLED which suggests it is their own panel and Sony makes OLED panels of smaller size. If so it means Sony has an consumer size OLED panel. But Sony will be entering consumer OLED market with LG panels. If they do have their own 55" OLED panel it means their mastering of OLED technology is on the level of LG but their process may have too low yields and/or they do not have resources for building huge plants and competing with the LG.
Sony was producing their previous Trimaster OLED's on a pilot fab. I thought it was a Gen 2 fab but cant find confirmation of that. That wouldnt be large enough to build a 55" panel so they either upgraded the pilot fab or are getting panels from LG/Samsung.

My guess is an upgrade of the pilot fab. The insane premiums on these sets makes the low volume manufacturing possible.
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post #13488 of 13495 Unread Yesterday, 12:22 PM
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Id love it if Sony turned their professional RGB OLED line into something for consumers, but I don't see any realistic way it's going to happen.
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post #13489 of 13495 Unread Yesterday, 02:14 PM
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Id love it if Sony turned their professional RGB OLED line into something for consumers, but I don't see any realistic way it's going to happen.
Given that in the entire flat panel era, Sony has never built a fab to build consumer TVs, I think you are correct. There is no realistic way it will happen, nor likely any unrealistic way.

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I remember hearing that some Japanese people were outraged when Sony partnered with Samsung for some LCD panels, because of the history between those countries.

How will they react to Sony buying OLED panels from LG?

Anyways, I don't know if the Sony TVs made from Samsung panels were better, vaguely recall Sony touting using better fluorescent backlights.
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post #13491 of 13495 Unread Yesterday, 02:38 PM
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I think LG is less hated in Japan than Samsung. Probably because Samsung is the number one of South Korea and represents that country more than LG. Either way it's all talk, Sony has partnered with and bought from both companies numerous times.
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post #13492 of 13495 Unread Yesterday, 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Vader1 View Post
Customers are generally attracted to brighter TV's but I've long suspected only to a point. We're in an era now were pretty much any TV can do 500 nits peak brightness at least. Once you get to that level things like showroom viewing and daytime viewing in living rooms aren't an issue for people anymore, and I think that's when most people stop caring about how much brighter the TV is and only a small percentage of videophiles want some 2000 nit display. You got people in the LCD forum complaining that TV's aren't 4000 nits yet... I can't help but laugh when I read that. My guess is most people don't want a 2000+ nit display in their living room, I really feel like a lot of people would call it over the top and/ or say it hurts their eyes. It will make them uncomfortable. This is one of the reasons I think HDR wont ever be as successful as some people on this site think it will be. 4-5K nits is just insane and the average persons TV will never be that bright. Most normal people want brightness for daytime viewing, not HDR, and if it's good enough to see clearly in the day then they will be very happy.
Dolby made PQ, we play by their rules.

Because of its fixed luminance nature, if OLEDs do not get brighter, they will not only lose out on greyscale points, (hint: we can only attain maximum amount of greyscale points when we reach 10000 nits) but also on color volume as Mark Henninger has put. Since no tone mapping can make up for lost color voume, OLEDs will have much more difficult time accessing DCI-P3 gamut fully. It's ridiculous as I would have been very happy with concentrating on 1000 nits for movies.
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post #13493 of 13495 Unread Today, 07:21 AM
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Dolby made PQ, we play by their rules.

Because of its fixed luminance nature, if OLEDs do not get brighter, they will not only lose out on greyscale points, (hint: we can only attain maximum amount of greyscale points when we reach 10000 nits) but also on color volume as Mark Henninger has put. Since no tone mapping can make up for lost color voume, OLEDs will have much more difficult time accessing DCI-P3 gamut fully. It's ridiculous as I would have been very happy with concentrating on 1000 nits for movies.
How bright are the displays when they are measuring color volume?

You can create a situation where you have a fully saturated blue color at 2000 nits but we are really hitting the edge case of the edge case.

FWIW, Samsung trademarks for HDR 1500 and HDR 2000 showed up a few days so that is probably a pretty good guide for their target luminances in 2017. They trademarked HDR 1000 last year.
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post #13494 of 13495 Unread Today, 08:59 AM
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Does anyone know
1.Can a wireless speaker be connected to the LG OLED audio system?
2.If it can , is it connected via the optical connection?
3. Alternately can you only connect via AV amp?
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post #13495 of 13495 Unread Today, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slacker711 View Post
How bright are the displays when they are measuring color volume?

You can create a situation where you have a fully saturated blue color at 2000 nits but we are really hitting the edge case of the edge case.

FWIW, Samsung trademarks for HDR 1500 and HDR 2000 showed up a few days so that is probably a pretty good guide for their target luminances in 2017. They trademarked HDR 1000 last year.
It's just that I'm worried that Sony's X550 OLED PVM, despite using LG panel with Y/B stack, only has 400 nits, citing reason such as "any more and white starts to wash out RGB's color gamut". Of course, as a BVM owner myself, I know expected standards for consumer products and professional products are completely different, but still...
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