OLED TVs: Technology Advancements Thread - Page 451 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #13501 of 13847 Old 12-10-2016, 01:14 PM
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Any idea of when/if we will see 'super size' OLED (or LCD/LED) tv's--i.e., ~ 140-150" diag--at a 'reasonable' price (e.g., </= $20K)? I currently have a JVC RS600 projector with screen that is ~ 150" diag for 16x9 pics; I like it very much, but would be willing to go with a high quality OLED or LCD of comparable size.
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post #13502 of 13847 Old 12-10-2016, 02:20 PM
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Doubt it...the demand isn't there.
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post #13503 of 13847 Old 12-10-2016, 02:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KOF View Post
Dolby made PQ, we play by their rules.

Because of its fixed luminance nature, if OLEDs do not get brighter, they will not only lose out on greyscale points, (hint: we can only attain maximum amount of greyscale points when we reach 10000 nits) but also on color volume as Mark Henninger has put. Since no tone mapping can make up for lost color voume, OLEDs will have much more difficult time accessing DCI-P3 gamut fully. It's ridiculous as I would have been very happy with concentrating on 1000 nits for movies.
Well LG's already demoed a 1400 nit OLED. Next year we're surely going to have at least a couple 1000 nit OLED's.
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post #13504 of 13847 Old 12-10-2016, 02:48 PM
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I requested moderation on this, but got nowhere, so I'll ask my fellow forum-ers:

Can we keep this thread to discussions about technology advancements, theoretical and -- especially -- real about OLED?

There is plenty of room to speculate on products, discuss relative merits vs. LCD, etc. in other threads in this forum.
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There's a saying about "everything in moderation". If only it was applied to well, you know...
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post #13505 of 13847 Old 12-10-2016, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by video_analysis View Post
Doubt it...the demand isn't there.
Really? I would think there would be, but what do I know!

So where do you think they will max out; 85"?
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post #13506 of 13847 Old 12-10-2016, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by KOF View Post
I did not mean for each and every colors to be at the maximum peak luminance, rather combined colors.

https://www.dolby.com/in/en/technolo...s-with-HLG.pdf

Dolby states 262.7 cd/m2 for red, 678 cd/m2 for green, 59.3 cd/m2 for blue for first 1,000 nits.

http://www.dvinfo.net/wp-content/upl...14IMG_7731.jpg

That 59.3 cd/m2 blue figure increases to 289 nits for 4000 nits contents. Rather worrying thing is that color gamut is constant, so if a DCI-P3 movie graded at 10,000 nits appear, that would require OLED to capture 722 nits blue just to resolve the same P3 gamut. Of course, 10,000 nits movie graded at P3 won't come out ever, so this is just a conjecture, but it still shows a need for luminance increase even when color gamut stays constant.
So that is what is bone-headed in the spec. Since the whole point of HDR is being able to deliver brighter highlights without increasing overall average brightest, the 59.3 cd/m2 blue figure is what matters and as long as your display can deliver that, it should qualify.

Just because you have a display that can deliver even brighter white and other bright-colored highlights of up to 4000 Nits for HDR, why must it also be able to deliver brighter levels of 289 Nits of pure blue? It makes no sense and would only be useful for bright highlights of pure blue (the 'blue sun' I referred to earlier), which are completely irrelevant.

LG (and the rest of the content industry) should fight this - it is idiotic (and Dolby should know better).
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post #13507 of 13847 Old 12-10-2016, 10:59 PM
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Originally Posted by millerwill View Post
Any idea of when/if we will see 'super size' OLED (or LCD/LED) tv's--i.e., ~ 140-150" diag--at a 'reasonable' price (e.g., </= $20K)? I currently have a JVC RS600 projector with screen that is ~ 150" diag for 16x9 pics; I like it very much, but would be willing to go with a high quality OLED or LCD of comparable size.
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Doubt it...the demand isn't there.
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Originally Posted by millerwill View Post
Really? I would think there would be, but what do I know! So where do you think they will max out; 85"?
Such cinema/HT-size active screens depend on one word becoming flesh: Printing. If OLED printing is mastered size stops being a rigid factor, screens can be printed on elastic substrates, manufacturing does not require multibillion investment and one can imagine active screens of size made to order - all at prices within reason.

The question is thus when printing may come. Doubters like rogo say printing is a pipe dream as nobody printed any OLED yet, optimists like me point to rumors that printing is essentially ready and may be demoed even next year.
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post #13508 of 13847 Old 12-10-2016, 11:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Vader1 View Post
Well LG's already demoed a 1400 nit OLED. Next year we're surely going to have at least a couple 1000 nit OLED's.
That brings about question about what is the reason for limitation OLED nits. First answer is that it is due to the potential for burn-out or burning OLED subpixels. This is true if one thinks how big might be the light output from single (sub)pixels. But the issue is more about nits produced by larger areas or the whole display, In this case the limitation is due to the power supply and heat dissipation which seem to be the main reason for ABL in LG OLED. This is supported by the fact that ABL can be switched off in the LG TV service menu with no apparent issues.

It thus seems that OLED nits can be ncreased quite easily by improving heat dissipation from the panel areas and enlarging the power supply. Making a sophisticated cooling backplane with fins and heatpipes could in principle eliminate any practical limitations on OLED nits.

Last edited by irkuck; 12-10-2016 at 11:24 PM.
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post #13509 of 13847 Old 12-10-2016, 11:53 PM
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Originally Posted by irkuck View Post
That brings about question about what is the reason for limitation OLED nits. First answer is that it is due to the potential for burn-out or burning OLED subpixels. This is true if one thinks how big might be the light output from single (sub)pixels. But the issue is more about nits produced by larger areas or the whole display, In this case the limitation is due to the power supply and heat dissipation which seem to be the main reason for ABL in LG OLED. This is supported by the fact that ABL can be switched off in the LG TV service menu with no apparent issues.
I've never heard this before... is it really true? If so that's pretty awesome
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post #13510 of 13847 Old 12-11-2016, 02:24 AM
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.......optimists like me point to rumors that printing is essentially ready and may be demoed even next year.
This thread existed for 8 years based solely on rumours.
Rumours are good, keep them coming.
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post #13511 of 13847 Old 12-11-2016, 03:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Vader1 View Post
I've never heard this before... is it really true? If so that's pretty awesome
Too narrow focus and you miss blinding OLED
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post #13512 of 13847 Old 12-11-2016, 07:34 AM
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Originally Posted by irkuck View Post
That brings about question about what is the reason for limitation OLED nits. First answer is that it is due to the potential for burn-out or burning OLED subpixels. This is true if one thinks how big might be the light output from single (sub)pixels. But the issue is more about nits produced by larger areas or the whole display, In this case the limitation is due to the power supply and heat dissipation which seem to be the main reason for ABL in LG OLED. This is supported by the fact that ABL can be switched off in the LG TV service menu with no apparent issues.

It thus seems that OLED nits can be ncreased quite easily by improving heat dissipation from the panel areas and enlarging the power supply. Making a sophisticated cooling backplane with fins and heatpipes could in principle eliminate any practical limitations on OLED nits.
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The link is mainly ASBL related (thread: How to: Turn off ABSL on LG OLED TV) . Folks in that link keep saying that ABL cannot be turned off..
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post #13513 of 13847 Old 12-11-2016, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post
The link is mainly ASBL related (thread: How to: Turn off ABSL on LG OLED TV) . Folks in that link keep saying that ABL cannot be turned off..
ASBL: dim when the average picture is similar after 60s.

ABL: dim when more than 60% of the picture is bright.

ASBL has clearly intention of preventing IR but people say there is not a problem in normal use and any IR from abnormal(=static picture for very long time) use can be cleared . ABL seems then more concerned with heat dissipation and power supply, after proper treatment of both it can be non-issue. Designing panel for the worst case of full screen blindingly bright picture kept long time would be an overkill but I see light in the tunnel made by 1000-2000 nits OLEDs
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post #13514 of 13847 Old 12-11-2016, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by irkuck View Post
ASBL: dim when the average picture is similar after 60s.

ABL: dim when more than 60% of the picture is bright.

ASBL has clearly intention of preventing IR but people say there is not a problem in normal use and any IR from abnormal(=static picture for very long time) use can be cleared . ABL seems then more concerned with heat dissipation and power supply, after proper treatment of both it can be non-issue. Designing panel for the worst case of full screen blindingly bright picture kept long time would be an overkill but I see light in the tunnel made by 1000-2000 nits OLEDs
That ASBL seems to suck big time and got me wondering the moment i read about it a while back, and people are complaining about it, though hdtvtest stated that ''the auto-dimming happens so slowly, and gradual, that most viewers probably won't notice it until they need to perform user menu action''. They also state that disabling ASBL is not recommended.
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post #13515 of 13847 Old 12-11-2016, 11:48 AM
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That ASBL seems to suck big time and got me wondering the moment i read about it a while back, and people are complaining about it, though hdtvtest stated that ''the auto-dimming happens so slowly, and gradual, that most viewers probably won't notice it until they need to perform user menu action''. They also state that disabling ASBL is not recommended.
For the uninformed DIY calibrator, it makes calibrating a pain. There you are cycling back and forth between readpoints, and suddenly one small setting change results in a larger-than-expected change in reading. Undo the change to read again and the reading does not return to its prior value. After a feeling like you are sliding down a slippery slope and have no idea what the heck is going on, reboot everything and start from scratch. By about the third time this happens, ask questions on AVS and get wise to the ASBL problem with static calibration patterns on LG OLEDs .
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post #13516 of 13847 Old 12-11-2016, 01:11 PM
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We're steering a little off course here. I've certainly been an OT offender in the past, but we're now off the road and in the weeds. I'm bored to tears with all the LG model-year specific stuff that's already polluted every thread it even tangentially touches. "Turning off ASBL"? Ugh, elsewhere please.

Thought #EAA: I wonder how many people know that no one ever says "What we've got here is a failure to communicate." in the movie "Cool Hand Luke" (1967).

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post #13517 of 13847 Old 12-11-2016, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by irkuck View Post
Such cinema/HT-size active screens depend on one word becoming flesh: Printing. If OLED printing is mastered size stops being a rigid factor, screens can be printed on elastic substrates, manufacturing does not require multibillion investment and one can imagine active screens of size made to order - all at prices within reason.

The question is thus when printing may come. Doubters like rogo say printing is a pipe dream as nobody printed any OLED yet, optimists like me point to rumors that printing is essentially ready and may be demoed even next year.
Thanks for the info/insight. I'll keep posted.
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post #13518 of 13847 Old 12-11-2016, 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by irkuck View Post
The question is thus when printing may come. Doubters like rogo say printing is a pipe dream as nobody printed any OLED yet, optimists like me point to rumors that printing is essentially ready and may be demoed even next year.
You can demo printing a year ago, 2 years ago even.

What you can't do is sell such a display with blue OLED material that lasts more than a few 100 hours.

This isn't about optimism or pessimism. It's about facts.

When someone demonstrates a long-lasting soluble blue OLED material, we can have an intelligent conversation about printing OLED TVs.

Until then, every time you talk about it being demoed without mentioning the fact no one has even implied at SID or elsewhere that this OLED material exists, you sound as ridiculous as the OLED-info people or whatever nonsensical Korean publication that uncritically repeats a rumor that "OLED printing is coming" without mentioning the enabling technology doesn't exist.

The reason this matters is that if I kept repeating that Tesla was going to make an electric car with a 1000-mile range next year, everyone would be correct to say, "You can't do that, the batteries for it don't exist yet."

And this is the same thing.

The burden would be on Tesla.

Or Samsung.

To demonstrate something that proves the enabling technology is more than theoretical.

Until then, you're not being optimistic. You're talking about wishing something theoretical comes into existing.

Personally, I'm rooting for the hyperloop and autonomous personal aircraft. By all means, you can root for soluble blue OLED.
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post #13519 of 13847 Old 12-11-2016, 11:12 PM
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They also state that disabling ASBL is not recommended.
Sure, disabling ASBL is not within recommended behaviors and LG is using it to protect against potential cases of utmost irresponsible behaviors of some consumers leaving the sets with static picture on for very long times. But as people in the other thread say, in any normal use there was no problem observed with ASBL off. To check the extremes, suicidal experimenters leaving their sets with static picture for weeks and months with ASBL off at a time are welcomed .

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You can demo printing a year ago, 2 years ago even. What you can't do is sell such a display with blue OLED material that lasts more than a few 100 hours.
This isn't about optimism or pessimism. It's about facts.
I do not consider this as a demo of real printed OLED and so for me there was no demo yet. The litmus test of the rumors will be 2017 since if the rumors are true a printed OLED will be demoed, display lasting XX-thousands of hours.
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post #13520 of 13847 Old 12-21-2016, 02:11 PM
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I just found this: http://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php...&id=1477658447

Old news from when I was not paying attention, but my read is that LG will seriously explore whether printed OLED is viable next year but is very unlikely to introduce any mainstream product (meaning 55/65B/C/E/G7P) based on printed technology in 2017.

Perhaps a 77" model possibly including the new Wallpaper model .

My view is LG wants to determine whether printed OLED technology is viable before finalizing equipment purchases for 9.7G equipment in P10.

It's already been reported that a first Gen 8 phase in P10 is being accelerated while a next phase with Gen 9.7 sheets is being delayed.

Anyone else see it differently?

Things are just going too well for LG OLED now for me to see them taking any technology risk without being very certain it is ready for prime time.

If they've got to take risk with some customers to get field experience with printed OLEDs, those shelling $15,000+ for wallpaper-mounted 77" OLEDs sound like the perfect Guinea Pigs .
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Japan Display is projecting that they will have mass production printable OLED's in 2019. They have a Gen 4.5 pilot line up and running. As always, I tend to be skeptical of any estimate beyond two years.

http://www.oled-info.com/files/jdi-j...ember-2016.pdf

JDI has raised $700 million from the Japanese government so at least they'll have some cash to throw at the OLED R&D that is necessary to have any chance of surviving.
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post #13522 of 13847 Old 12-21-2016, 02:24 PM
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Japan Display is projecting that they will have mass production printable OLED's in 2019. They have a Gen 4.5 pilot line up and running. As always, I tend to be skeptical of any estimate beyond two years.

http://www.oled-info.com/files/jdi-j...ember-2016.pdf

JDI has raised $700 million from the Japanese government so at least they'll have some cash to throw at the OLED R&D that is necessary to have any chance of surviving.
2019 sounds a hell of a lot more credible than 2017.

I believe that you are agreeing with me that the chance of any printed production of mainstream OLED TVs in 2017 is vanishingly close to 0% .
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post #13523 of 13847 Old 12-21-2016, 02:47 PM
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2019 sounds a hell of a lot more credible than 2017.

I believe that you are agreeing with me that the chance of any printed production of mainstream OLED TVs in 2017 is vanishingly close to 0% .
The LGD inkjet line was described as a "pilot" line. I know some jumped to conclusions, but I didnt interpret that as having any chance of becoming commercial production in 2017. Both the JDI and LGD lines are necessary but not sufficient steps to getting a commercial printable display. I assume that they think that there is some chance that they will get a soluble blue with a good lifetime in the next few years and in the meantime the pilot line allows them to work on the various manufacturing issues.

A soluble blue OLED is probably closer than a blue QLED, but whether it actually happens...I doubt anybody knows that either.
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post #13524 of 13847 Old 12-21-2016, 03:03 PM
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The LGD inkjet line was described as a "pilot" line. I know some jumped to conclusions, but I didnt interpret that as having any chance of becoming commercial production in 2017. Both the JDI and LGD lines are necessary but not sufficient steps to getting a commercial printable display. I assume that they think that there is some chance that they will get a soluble blue with a good lifetime in the next few years and in the meantime the pilot line allows them to work on the various manufacturing issues.

A soluble blue OLED is probably closer than a blue QLED, but whether it actually happens...I doubt anybody knows that either.
Exactly what I had understood - thanks for the confirmation.

The number of members talking about printed 77" OLEDs next year is unbelievable. I guess everyone needs a dream, right .
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post #13525 of 13847 Old 12-21-2016, 03:31 PM
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OLED's still have a way to go.

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/oled-...1612214392.htm
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post #13526 of 13847 Old 12-21-2016, 03:40 PM
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The peak brightness is the deal killer AFAIC. Plasma had the same problem, similar to CRT's. I'm not sure why it is a problem other than heat concerns.
Might as well forget watching hockey or Winter sports (not that do either, but the problem is still there).

Another broken technology.

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Free, abundant OTA television separates this country from many others. ATSC1 has only been in force since 2009. The wireless industry has enough spectrum. Enough of 'planned obsolesce'.
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post #13527 of 13847 Old 12-21-2016, 03:41 PM
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Only if you get your knickers in a twist about HDR, which is still not fully fleshed out yet in terms of content and the software/hardware to run it. It is hard for me to care less as a result in 2016 and 2017.
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post #13528 of 13847 Old 12-21-2016, 03:43 PM
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The peak brightness is the deal killer AFAIC. Plasma had the same problem, similar to CRT's. I'm not sure why it is a problem other than heat concerns.
Might as well forget watching hockey or Winter sports (not that do either, but the problem is still there).

Another broken technology.
Shirley, you must be joking. Are you complaining from experience with the sets or just what somebody said on the interwebs?
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post #13529 of 13847 Old 12-21-2016, 03:49 PM
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Exactly what I had understood - thanks for the confirmation.

The number of members talking about printed 77" OLEDs next year is unbelievable. I guess everyone needs a dream, right .
You really wouldnt want to own the first printable OLED built off a pilot line. The 2013 55" OLED was barely acceptable and it was the first of its kind and priced astronomically high with only crazy early adopters buying them. The expectations were very different with no other OLED's on the market.

A Korean research outfit called UBI expects that the inkjet production will be aimed at the mid-tier of the market. It makes sense to me. They are likely to have lower brightness and shorter lifetimes than the WOLED's produced at the same time.
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post #13530 of 13847 Old 12-21-2016, 03:49 PM
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Experience with the oldest three and that article (among others) for the last. And yes, all of those technologies are a joke in one form or another.
And don't call me Shirley.

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Free, abundant OTA television separates this country from many others. ATSC1 has only been in force since 2009. The wireless industry has enough spectrum. Enough of 'planned obsolesce'.
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