OLED TVs: Technology Advancements Thread - Page 457 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #13681 of 14098 Old 01-19-2017, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by andy sullivan View Post
Perhaps you could take a moment to explain "vignetti". What causes it, how to recognize it, and how best to minimize it's effects
Probably not appropriate for this thread, but here's a place to start: Vignetting test for LG EF9500/EG9600 OLEDs
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post #13682 of 14098 Old 01-21-2017, 05:00 PM
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Sharp trying to get into OLEDs?

http://www.oled-info.com/reports-jap...fab-china-2019

"According to a report from Japan's Nikkei Asian Review, Sharp will build an OLED production line at Foxconn's factory in Zhengzhou (northern China). The investment in this new fab will total around 100 billion yen (about $865 million) and production will begin in 2019. Sharp is specifically aiming to supply screens for Apple's future iPhones.

October 2016 Sharp announced that it will invest $570 million to build OLED pilot lines in Osaka and in the Mie Prefecture. The pilot lines will begin OLED production in the summer of 2018. It was later reported that Sharp is considering to establish those lines in China instead - so it may be that this new Zhengzhou fab is actually the one reported in October.

Sharp's Korean competitors, LGD and SDC are not too worried, it seems - as they estimate that Sharp will not be able to compete with their OLED panels by at least 2020."
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post #13683 of 14098 Old 01-21-2017, 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by ynotgoal View Post
Certainly improved materials will be used over time which will improve color space. Here is a report that LG is planning on using improved color filters to improve color comparable to quantum dot films but without using the films. It is expected to be used in 2018 models for both LCD and OLED.
http://www.etnews.com/20170111000283
Thanks for this link, but my Korean is not too good. If there are any important tidbits that anyone can translate, that would be great, but otherwise I'll just go with your recap.

Are the 'improved color filters comparable to quantum dots but without using the films' patterned quantum dots for color filters (QDCF), perchance? Are they some technology that 'transforms' light spectra versus just blocking it like conventional color filters?

Getting to wider color gamut through one means or another seems like a done deal, either through improved OLED materials or improved color filters, but I suspect LG is going to have to do something about the poor efficiency of their WOLED architecture sooner rather than later.

If Nanosys and rumors are to be believed, we will see LED/LCDs with R+G QDCF & Blue backlight by next year. This will deliver a ~3X improvement in brightness (both peak and sustained/full screen) at relatively modest cost, which will bring LED/LCD brightness up over Dolby's HDR mastering target of 4000 cd/m2.

Now we can argue about how critical the HDR-brightness arm's race is and how successful HDR will prove to be, but there are other benefits increased efficiency / peak brightness will bring to OLED:

-lower power consumption (with all else being equal).

-total elimination of ABL for any normal viewing.

-the excess brightness to finally introduce persistence-based motion blur improvements (BFI/scanning display).

-better head-to-head showing against bright LED/LCDs on the showroom floor where Samsung will be touting the benefits of increased brightness, color-space, and HDR.

So I see it as pretty much inevitable that LG will need to introduce light-transforming color filters based on QDDF or something equivalent by 2019 (assuming Samsung successfully launches QDCF-based QLED/ELCDs next year as expected).

Blue QDCF remains an issue and WOLED is already at a disadvantage versus LED/LCD, which can rely on a blue-LED backlight to gain a full 3X in efficiency.

With existing WOLED, the best LG can do is use standard Blue Color Filter combined with R+G QDCF to gain 1.5X in efficiency/output (Red and Greed shrink to 0.5 size X 3X efficiency while Blue and White grow to 1.5X size X 1X efficiency).

Again, assuming R+G has been fully industrialized and proven by Samsung at least a year earlier, I see it as inevitable that LG will introduce OLED w/ R+G QDCF which will get them to peak brightness of 1500 cd/m2 for the HDR/color-space wars and will allow them to deliver ABL-free SDR for any peak brightness calibration below 225 cd/m2...

If/when Blue QDCF gets industrialized (or a long-lifetime BOLED becomes viable) there is a further efficiency / brightness gain of +33% to be had (to peak brightness of 2000 cd/m2) to bring OLED up to parity with LED/LCD as far as light efficiency, but there is no rush for that and no reason to take any risk...

Another side-benefit of QDCF on OLED is that the cost difference can finally be used by LG to put some meat on their product line-up/strategy: low-end base B/C models have to QDCF while E/GW models deliver improved picture quality at a price premium...

Anyone else have an opinion as to the time after the introduction of mass-market QDCF LED/LCD TVs before we see the technology introduced on OLEDs?
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post #13684 of 14098 Old 01-21-2017, 09:44 PM
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The improved color filters may be the inclusion of the Nano Cell technology shown at CES for the LCD.
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post #13685 of 14098 Old 01-21-2017, 10:48 PM
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Originally Posted by move4ward View Post
The improved color filters may be the inclusion of the Nano Cell technology shown at CES for the LCD.
The way that 'nano cell technology' was explained to me by the LG rep at CES, it does not transform light but merely 'sharpens' the edge of the band pass filter (color filters on each subpixel). He stated that it was a sheet composed of uniform nano particles located on the outside of the color filters.

I'm not convinced he knew what he was talking about, so we'll just need to wait until these 'nano cell' TVs are available in the wild...
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post #13686 of 14098 Old 01-22-2017, 01:18 AM
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The nano tech LG is talking about merely blocks light spectrum outside of the preferred rgb colours. So in fact it should be lowering efficiency to sharpen and increase the colour gamut.

The qdcf have still difficulties blocking other colours; i.e. the green filter not only converts blue light into green but it also lets a bit of the blue pass through. Finding the right density of qdots and probably at the same time helping up with some dye in the filter to improve the selectivness is an art which has still to be mastered by Samsung.
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post #13687 of 14098 Old 01-22-2017, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by joys_R_us View Post
The nano tech LG is talking about merely blocks light spectrum outside of the preferred rgb colours. So in fact it should be lowering efficiency to sharpen and increase the colour gamut.

The qdcf have still difficulties blocking other colors i.e. the green filter not only converts blue light into green but it also lets a bit of the blue pass through. Finding the right density of qdots and probably at the same time helping up with some dye in the filter to improve the selectivness is an art which has still to be mastered by Samsung.
yeah, with QDEF, the idea is to let a certain % of blue light through while converting a certain % to Red and to Green.

With QDCF, 100% of the incoming blue light needs to be converted to Red or seperately to Green. If any Blue light still gets through the Red or Green Quantim Dot Colir Filters, it will reduce color gamut versus what they are achieving with today's film...

I suppose QDCF could be complimented with an additional layer of conventional color filter - more complicated but at least light leakage only translates to some lost efficiency and not loss of color gamut.
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post #13688 of 14098 Old 01-22-2017, 01:53 PM
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I would rule out an additional layer as it would be too expensive and probably would also kill the viewing angle. It is easier to enhance the cf with some conventional dye.
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post #13689 of 14098 Old 01-22-2017, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by joys_R_us View Post
I would rule out an additional layer as it would be too expensive and probably would also kill the viewing angle. It is easier to enhance the cf with some conventional dye.
LCD viewing angles are poor primarily because of the LCD lightvalve 'tunnels'.

With QDCF, the light is essentially emitted 'at the surface' and I doubt that addition of conventional color filters on top of QDCF would significantly degrade viewing angle (and certainly no worse than WOLED is today ).

Cost is a concern, but so is efficiency - if quantum dots are mixed within the conventional color filter material itself, it will reduce manufacturing cost (1 layer to pattern instead of two) but at the cost of siome of the incoming light being blocked by the conventional color filter rather than being converted to the target wavelength...

This same issue will exist for QLED/ELCD (QDCF/LCD), so I would not be surprised to see LG let Samsung take point on working through these technical and manufacturing issues and draft behind them by a year or so...
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post #13690 of 14098 Old 01-22-2017, 09:55 PM
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Found this from last June: http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/abstract/document/7336476/

"Enhancement of Optical Efficiency in White OLED Display Using the Patterned Photoresist Film Dispersed With Quantum Dot Nanocrystals

Abstract:
Quantum dot (QD) nanocrystals dispersed in photoresist (PR) film was developed and applied to white organic light-emitting diode (OLED) to improve optical power of red color through down-converting of blue and green light. To integrate to white OLED display panel, the QD dispersed photoresist film was prepared in a thickness of 2 μm with high concentration of QDs up to 30 wt%. QDs were dispersed successfully in PR with a matching of nonpolar characteristic for the ligands of QDs and PR as well as a careful mixing process of PR and QD dispersed solutions. We also realized the patterning of QD dispersed PR film with a stripe pattern of 60- μm width without a residual layer. The experimental measurement after passing through a 30 wt% QD dispersed PR film and a red color filter in white OLED shows the enhancement of 40.2% in the optical power of red color compared to that from a conventional white OLED without QD dispersed PR film."
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post #13691 of 14098 Old 01-23-2017, 05:38 AM
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Quote:
Enhancement of Optical Efficiency in White OLED Display Using the Patterned Photoresist Film Dispersed With Quantum Dot Nanocrystals
FWIW, the first page of the paper you posted.

https://www.deepdyve.com/lp/institut...the-fwn0HP4tnI
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post #13692 of 14098 Old 01-23-2017, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by slacker711 View Post
FWIW, the first page of the paper you posted.

https://www.deepdyve.com/lp/institut...the-fwn0HP4tnI
Thanks.

First page is nice, remainder of pepper would be nicer .

The first page of the paper makes reference to a 'florescent blue and a phosphorescent red/green two-stacked tandem structure' achieving a current efficiency of 61.3 cd/A.

Does anyone have any idea what cd/A is achieved by current LG panels?
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post #13693 of 14098 Old 01-24-2017, 02:06 PM
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CFO of LG Display today:

"Panel shipments in the first quarter of 2017 are expected to decrease by a mid-single digit percentage due to some production line conversions from LCD to OLED and capacity reduction from allocating some lines for new product R&D activities . "

I think the R&D activies occupying production line capacity could be the oled print trials...

By the way, they also reported a record profit in the fourth quarter. Which is a good thing. They have room for price cuts and the means for further investing in oled without going broke...

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post #13694 of 14098 Old 01-25-2017, 01:36 AM
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Originally Posted by joys_R_us View Post
I think the R&D activies occupying production line capacity could be the oled print trials...
I'll simply ask again: Is there evidence there is a soluble blue OLED that has more than de minimis lifetime?

There's a saying about "everything in moderation". If only it was applied to well, you know...
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post #13695 of 14098 Old 01-25-2017, 04:22 AM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post
I'll simply ask again: Is there evidence there is a soluble blue OLED that has more than de minimis lifetime?
The evidence for me is that LGD announced a while ago (also to my surprise) that they would set up a pilot line to develop printed oleds. I too have my doubts but...
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post #13696 of 14098 Old 01-25-2017, 05:30 AM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
LCD viewing angles are poor primarily because of the LCD lightvalve 'tunnels'.

With QDCF, the light is essentially emitted 'at the surface' and I doubt that addition of conventional color filters on top of QDCF would significantly degrade viewing angle (and certainly no worse than WOLED is today ).
....surface emission by itself is not a guarantee that it's dispersal is a uniform spray outward. Something like that might well be directional in nature. A conventional LED flashlight for instance is usually implemented as an SMD (surface mounted diode) that is by itself incredibly directional requiring lensing to spread.

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post #13697 of 14098 Old 01-25-2017, 08:00 AM
 
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post
I'll simply ask again: Is there evidence there is a soluble blue OLED that has more than de minimis lifetime?
Yes.

http://www.oled-info.com/joled-detai...-and-materials
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post #13698 of 14098 Old 01-25-2017, 12:44 PM
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Sorry but a plan to do something 2 years from now could just as easily mean, "if someone invents a usable material as none currently exists."

I'm still waiting for any manufacturer on earth to announce the material fact for its investors that it has a blue soluble OLED with multi-thousand-hour lifetime.

Heck, I'd be open to a SID presentation on said material.

There's a saying about "everything in moderation". If only it was applied to well, you know...
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post #13699 of 14098 Old 01-25-2017, 01:19 PM
 
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post
Sorry but a plan to do something 2 years from now could just as easily mean, "if someone invents a usable material as none currently exists."

I'm still waiting for any manufacturer on earth to announce the material fact for its investors that it has a blue soluble OLED with multi-thousand-hour lifetime.

Heck, I'd be open to a SID presentation on said material.
Info from last year. Improvements have been made.


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post #13700 of 14098 Old 01-25-2017, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by joys_R_us View Post
CFO of LG Display today:

"Panel shipments in the first quarter of 2017 are expected to decrease by a mid-single digit percentage due to some production line conversions from LCD to OLED and capacity reduction from allocating some lines for new product R&D activities . "

I think the R&D activies occupying production line capacity could be the oled print trials...

By the way, they also reported a record profit in the fourth quarter. Which is a good thing. They have room for price cuts and the means for further investing in oled without going broke...
More tidbits from the Q&A section of the earnings call:

Yields seem to be 'above 80%':

"Don Kim

I am the CFO; let me respond to that question. In the second half of 2017, there will be around 60,000 60K capacity will be secured. So that will be about two fold on an year-over-year basis increase leading to the volume of about 1.5 million to 1.8 million units.

Moving onto your question about the yield. If you look out for the large sized OLED TVs we are well on track according to our internal plans. In all the models, we have already achieved the more than 80%, we have achieved the 80% which is the so called golden yield percentage. If you look at the LCD business it took us 10 years to reach the golden yield level at 80% before OLED in light of the fact that we were able to achieve the golden level in two years it is quite meaningful."


And LG is claiming they captured a full 80% of the North American Premium:

"Stephen Ko

I’m from Head of TV Marketing. My name is Stephen Ko. On top of what our CFO has said let me just elaborate one more thing. The market that we are targeting with OLED is not the LCD market. We are targeting our OLED against the high-end premium segment.

For example in the North American market, the 65 inch which is about $3000 in price, the so-called ultra high-end segment in the fourth quarter our OLED had accounted for more than 80%, so in the premium market we have a significant wielding in terms of market share."

30% 65" & 77" in 2016 increasing to 40% thus year:

"Don Kim

I’m the CFO. When you are converting LCD capacity to OLED basically 41K LCD is going to be converted to 26K OLED. So basically that is the ratio when you think about LCD capacity conversion into OLED capacity.

Responding to your second question, the OLED sizes, the panel sizes that you’ve asked on the new capacity they comprise of 55 inch, 65 and 77. Just to give you some more color, in terms of the sizes above 65 inch for 2016 it was 30%. So that includes 65 and 77. For 2017 we expect that ratio to be 40%."
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post #13701 of 14098 Old 01-25-2017, 10:30 PM
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Sytech, that's progress, but not remotely production ready.

The luminous efficiency is still a small fraction of the red, never mind the green.

The lifetime is simply not in the universe of a consumer television.

Again, maybe this changes, but there is no promise that the materials improve magically year over year. Especially given that virtually zero progress was made between 2002-12.

Whose material was that?

There's a saying about "everything in moderation". If only it was applied to well, you know...
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post #13702 of 14098 Old 01-26-2017, 05:55 AM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
More tidbits from the Q&A section of the earnings call:

Yields seem to be 'above 80%':
When in the history of manufacturing anything did a 20% yield failure become such a wonderful number? 1 out of every 5 attempts tanking outright? I don't ever recall that number being touted so much. Are they trying to establish credibility out of thin air?

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post #13703 of 14098 Old 01-26-2017, 08:23 AM
 
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. Just to give you some more color, in terms of the sizes above 65 inch for 2016 it was 30%. So that includes 65 and 77. For 2017 we expect that ratio to be 40%."
Only 30% for 65" (lets face it the 77" is under 1000 units worldwide), no wonder LGD had problems supplying Skyworth with panels.
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post #13704 of 14098 Old 01-26-2017, 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post
Sorry but a plan to do something 2 years from now could just as easily mean, "if someone invents a usable material as none currently exists."

I'm still waiting for any manufacturer on earth to announce the material fact for its investors that it has a blue soluble OLED with multi-thousand-hour lifetime.

Heck, I'd be open to a SID presentation on said material.
I totally agree there hasn't been any public disclosure that the material longevity issue has been solved, but there's lot of anecdotal evidence that progress is being made. Here's an article from about 18 months ago where Dupont said they are scaling up a manufacturing facility for inks for large-screen OLEDs. Would they do that if they didn't think they had improved enough or were going to?

http://www.printedelectronicsworld.c...generation-tvs
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post
When in the history of manufacturing anything did a 20% yield failure become such a wonderful number? 1 out of every 5 attempts tanking outright? I don't ever recall that number being touted so much. Are they trying to establish credibility out of thin air?
Almost 40 years ago when "technology" was bleeding edge in totally different arenas, just over 80% was a good yield for high density memory (high density for that time). I participated in some of the "activities" that resulted in much improved yield beyond that point. Those activities had more to do with testing techniques than manufacturing processes. So 80%+ yield (or less than 20% failure) is indeed a good thing for a manufacturing process still in its infancy.

I don't think we'll see a lot of those "test tweaks" as a solution -- the manufacturing processes have yet to mature to the level that "bonus" results are being chased.
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post #13706 of 14098 Old 01-26-2017, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by richlife View Post
Almost 40 years ago when "technology" was bleeding edge in totally different arenas, just over 80% was a good yield for high density memory (high density for that time). I participated in some of the "activities" that resulted in much improved yield beyond that point. Those activities had more to do with testing techniques than manufacturing processes. So 80%+ yield (or less than 20% failure) is indeed a good thing for a manufacturing process still in its infancy.

I don't think we'll see a lot of those "test tweaks" as a solution -- the manufacturing processes have yet to mature to the level that "bonus" results are being chased.
Fair enough. Though I don't think that ~4 years of production level OLED is "infancy", plus that (the memory) is a component-level product where the display is almost the entire TV, but I understand where you're coming from. I'm thinking back to the crazy cost of 4K and 16K upgrades (think 8 bit land) and if that's because of yields.....
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post #13707 of 14098 Old 01-26-2017, 10:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Rich Peterson View Post
I totally agree there hasn't been any public disclosure that the material longevity issue has been solved, but there's lot of anecdotal evidence that progress is being made. Here's an article from about 18 months ago where Dupont said they are scaling up a manufacturing facility for inks for large-screen OLEDs. Would they do that if they didn't think they had improved enough or were going to?
Well, 18 months ago there was absolutely nothing that existed. So yeah, I'd say they'd claim it, especially when some mfrs. were talking about Franken-displays using vapor-deposited blue + printed red/green.

And while I agree with you it's likely there is some non-public progress, I don't agree that a development 15 years in the making has reached the "solved" state quietly without a public product. That defies credulity.

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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post
Fair enough. Though I don't think that ~4 years of production level OLED is "infancy", plus that (the memory) is a component-level product where the display is almost the entire TV, but I understand where you're coming from. I'm thinking back to the crazy cost of 4K and 16K upgrades (think 8 bit land) and if that's because of yields.....
I love how LG just redefined OLED to being 2 years old to make some bogus point about speed. And also redefined 80% TV yield as winning on their "cheaper than LCD" OLED technology which causes them -- by their own proclamation -- to throw away 40% of capacity per line. I mean, who do they think they are fooling? LCD, incidentally, likely has a yield in the 98% range.

There's a saying about "everything in moderation". If only it was applied to well, you know...
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post #13708 of 14098 Old 01-27-2017, 02:59 AM
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Oh, that was an unanswered question I had incidentally asked prior about LCD's yield achievement. Above 80% (I'll be generous with 81%) still leaves further leaps to come if OLED wants to hit price parity. 4 years = OLED in toddler stage? I don't hold much scorn against them for using the 2-year metric since they've barely had that much experience mass producing UHD OLED panels (and the first ones were stinkers, let me tell you).
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post #13709 of 14098 Old 01-27-2017, 07:46 AM
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Kind of suspect.. In a october 2015 article it is stated that yield is 65%, so yield improved 15% in one year. Is that even possible?
http://www.businesskorea.co.kr/engli...hd-oled-panels
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post #13710 of 14098 Old 01-27-2017, 09:33 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post
Kind of suspect.. In a october 2015 article it is stated that yield is 65%, so yield improved 15% in one year. Is that even possible?
http://www.businesskorea.co.kr/engli...hd-oled-panels
Don't know if they still do it or how, but I remember reading on the 1080p line they were able to "repair" defective panels that had only minor faults. So maybe 65% perfect panel with 15% "repair" rate?
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