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post #13831 of 13852 Old 03-15-2017, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by slacker711 View Post
I invest in tech for a living and have made displays part of my speciality so knowing those numbers is what I do.
lol, you wouldn't be the first guy on this forum who "invests in tech for a living", who makes some grandiose claims, presents them as facts, is then simply (and fairly) asked to provide any citation, but is then flat-out unable to. That happens on this forum at least fifty times a day. (NOTE: hyperbole doesn't require a citation, before you ask me to cite proof for this scenario playing out here 50 times a day, it happens frequently)

"Maybe if I shrug my shoulders and move around my hands like this, maybe people will think I know what I'm talking about." ...

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post #13832 of 13852 Old 03-15-2017, 02:21 PM
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Like I said before, I can live with you continuing to live in ignorance.

I thought from your initial couple of posts that you might know something about OLED's. We are all wrong sometimes.
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post #13833 of 13852 Old 03-15-2017, 02:31 PM
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For everybody else who is actually interested in a discussion of the progress of TADF materials, Cynora and Kyulux will be presenting at SID in May. Cynora's synopsis doesnt give away anything interesting but here is Kyulux's summary. The coordinates and efficiency are good so the question is where they are on lifetime.

https://www.sheridanprinting.com/pcm...essionlist.cfm

Quote:
45.1 - Invited Paper: Advanced Molecular Design for Blue Thermally Activated Delayed Fluorescence (TADF) Emitters (9:00-9:20)
Lin-Song Cui, Yan Geng, Jong Uk Kim, Hajime Nakanotani, Chihaya Adachi
Center for Organic Photonics and Electronics Research (OPERA) Fukuoka Japan

Hiroko Nomura
Kyulux Inc. Fukuoka Japan


A new family of deep-blue TADF emitters based on donor-acceptor architecture has been developed. The electronic interaction between donor and acceptor plays the key role in TADF mechanism. Deep-blue OLEDs fabricated with these TADF emitters achieved high external quantum efficiencies over 19.2% with CIE coordinates of (0.148, 0.098).
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post #13834 of 13852 Old 03-15-2017, 02:37 PM
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LG Display has a number of presentations. Here are just two of interest.

https://www.sheridanprinting.com/pcm...essionlist.cfm

Quote:
3.1 - Invited Paper: 3-Stack 3-Color White OLEDs for 4K Premium OLED TV (11:10-11:30)
Chang-Wook Han, Mi-Young Han, Seung-Ryong Jung, Jung-Soo Park, Young-Kwan Jung, Jae-Man Lee, Hong-Seok Choi, Gwi-Jeong Cho, Dong-Hyuk Kim, Moon-Ki Yee, Hong-Gyu Kim, Hyun-Chul Choi, Chang-Ho Oh, In-Byeong Kang
LG Display Co., Ltd. Paiu South Korea


An improved 3-stack white OLED (WOLED) structure consisting of layers emitting red and yellow-green phosphorescence from the second stacked layer will be reported. The WOLED demonstrates a high current efficiency of 83 cd/A and a color coordinate of (0.297, 0.317). A 65-in. 4K premium OLED TV demonstrated 800 nits of peak luminance and 99% color gamut in the DCI color space.
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71.2 - New Technology for improving the Blackness of OLED TVs (9:20-9:40)
Hyun-Jong Noh, Chi-Myung Ahn, Taw-Woon Ko, Chung-Sun Lim, Sang-Ho Choi, Young-Hoon Shin, Jin-Mog Kim, Myung-Chul Jun, Chang-Ho Oh, In-Byeong Kang
LG Display Co., Ltd. Paju South Korea


OLEDs have an excellent ambient contrast ratio because OLED displays containing a circular polarizer can effectively reduce the reflectance caused by external light. However, for better blackness, it is necessary to improve the reflectance and reflection colors. The blackness of OLED TVs has been improved by applying a new material
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post #13835 of 13852 Old 03-15-2017, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by slacker711 View Post
Like I said before, I can live with you continuing to live in ignorance.

I thought from your initial couple of posts that you might know something about OLED's. We are all wrong sometimes.
Wow, you cracked like an egg, you seem to buckle under pressure. Everyone is wrong sometimes, but it takes a man to admit when he's wrong, and then make the necessary corrections. I know about OLED thank you very much, no need for obtuse pretentiousness. Thank God you've finally changed the subject in your subsequent posts, attaboy.

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post #13836 of 13852 Old 03-15-2017, 03:16 PM
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Have you ever read the number LGD is going to invest in the P10 fab alone ? We are talking about billions. And then try to divide the yearly depreciation by the number of panels coming out of this fab. Then you realize that the emitter material cost in OLED panels is near to irrelevant. Of course Cynora will argue differently. If they were on the way to success they would argue with the quality and longevity of their materials but not cost savings. Thats b.s.
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post #13837 of 13852 Old 03-15-2017, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slacker711 View Post
For everybody else who is actually interested in a discussion of the progress of TADF materials, Cynora and Kyulux will be presenting at SID in May. Cynora's synopsis doesnt give away anything interesting but here is Kyulux's summary. The coordinates and efficiency are good so the question is where they are on lifetime.

https://www.sheridanprinting.com/pcm...essionlist.cfm

Quote:
45.1 - Invited Paper: Advanced Molecular Design for Blue Thermally Activated Delayed Fluorescence (TADF) Emitters (9:00-9:20)
Lin-Song Cui, Yan Geng, Jong Uk Kim, Hajime Nakanotani, Chihaya Adachi
Center for Organic Photonics and Electronics Research (OPERA) Fukuoka Japan

Hiroko Nomura
Kyulux Inc. Fukuoka Japan


A new family of deep-blue TADF emitters based on donor-acceptor architecture has been developed. The electronic interaction between donor and acceptor plays the key role in TADF mechanism. Deep-blue OLEDs fabricated with these TADF emitters achieved high external quantum efficiencies over 19.2% with CIE coordinates of (0.148, 0.098).
Thanks for the constructive and informative post.

For those of us with less domain expertise, could you translate what these efficiency results could mean?

Am I correct that 19.2% is about double the efficiency of the blue emitter LG is currently using?

And am I right that the practical impact of this improved efficiency is that it could result in increased brightness?
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post #13838 of 13852 Old 03-15-2017, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by joys_R_us View Post
Have you ever read the number LGD is going to invest in the P10 fab alone ? We are talking about billions. And then try to divide the yearly depreciation by the number of panels coming out of this fab. Then you realize that the emitter material cost in OLED panels is near to irrelevant. Of course Cynora will argue differently. If they were on the way to success they would argue with the quality and longevity of their materials but not cost savings. Thats b.s.

Flogging a dead horse.

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post #13839 of 13852 Old 03-15-2017, 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
Thanks for the constructive and informative post.

For those of us with less domain expertise, could you translate what these efficiency results could mean?

Am I correct that 19.2% is about double the efficiency of the blue emitter LG is currently using?

And am I right that the practical impact of this improved efficiency is that it could result in increased brightness?
Yes, that is about double the efficiency of the fluorescent blue emitters from Idemitsu.

We dont know the limiting factor in OLED television brightness. If heat is a factor, then increased efficiency would help. If it is lifetime, then a 20,000 hour TADF emitter wont bring any change vs. a 20,000 hour flourescent emitter.

I have been skeptical of heat as the explanation. Would LGD be driving thinness this hard if it was limiting their brightness? Also, how much heat would be generated by momentary highlights at 1000+ nits? Another possible explanation is something to do with the backplane but I dont know much about the limits for the IGZO substrates.

One thing I am confident in though, LGD wont replace their current materials until they can guarantee a similar lifetime and color gamut to current specs. Neither the increased brightness or reduced power consumption would be worth a hit to lifetime. The mobile market is different though. Power consumption and color gamut are probably more important than lifetime for at least some handset vendors. If TADF materials can get close to the current blue lifetime, they could see some adoption in that market. A T97 of 100 hours at 700 nits doesnt hit that mark though.
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post #13840 of 13852 Old 03-15-2017, 06:38 PM
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I've seen at least one report of excessive heat emanating from the W7 in an early impression, so I wouldn't be surprised if better efficiency is something LGD is actively seeking.
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post #13841 of 13852 Old 03-15-2017, 08:09 PM
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I've seen at least one report of excessive heat emanating from the W7 in an early impression, so I wouldn't be surprised if better efficiency is something LGD is actively seeking.
The John Archer report is why I included it as a possibility. However, this is the first report that I can remember noting heat coming from an OLED. I'll admit though I didnt follow the 2016 owners threads as closely as I did the 2015 models. Does anybody remember similar reports from owners? Or have you seen it yourself?

If heat is the real issue, it would seem that slightly thicker models would help disperse the heat and allow for higher brightness. Instead LG, and every other OLED vendor, is going with paper thin designs. Are they all choosing form over function?
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post #13842 of 13852 Old 03-15-2017, 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by philochs1 View Post
Flogging a dead horse.

Spoiler!



Stop, stop, he's already dead!



OK ... is philochs1 the dead horse? or is he the psycho doing the flogging?
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post #13843 of 13852 Old 03-15-2017, 11:46 PM
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Originally Posted by slacker711 View Post
The John Archer report is why I included it as a possibility. However, this is the first report that I can remember noting heat coming from an OLED. I'll admit though I didnt follow the 2016 owners threads as closely as I did the 2015 models. Does anybody remember similar reports from owners? Or have you seen it yourself?

If heat is the real issue, it would seem that slightly thicker models would help disperse the heat and allow for higher brightness. Instead LG, and every other OLED vendor, is going with paper thin designs. Are they all choosing form over function?
Maybe. Can't say that I have noticed such in 2016, but then again I haven't really checked the screen temp when it's firing on all cylinders with HDR content (of which there is a paucity as you are well aware). I'll have to investigate on the next viewing of such.
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post #13844 of 13852 Old 03-16-2017, 10:06 PM
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"They know where they are now, and they already know how long it will take to get the product to where it needs to be. "

Literally no company can predict this kind of thing. Let alone a startup.

-----

Unrelated to above post:

With respect to Kateeva, I don't think they are playing a shell game at all. I also am not sure which print heads they are using.

I believe, however, they currently have a business. People are conflating that existing business with the printing of OLEDs. That's a logical fallacy.

I will seek to learn more about their current state of affairs. In the meantime, I urge everyone interested to read their website. It explains a lot.
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post #13845 of 13852 Old 03-16-2017, 10:31 PM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post
"They know where they are now, and they already know how long it will take to get the product to where it needs to be. "

Literally no company can predict this kind of thing. Let alone a startup.

-----

Unrelated to above post:

With respect to Kateeva, I don't think they are playing a shell game at all. I also am not sure which print heads they are using.

I believe, however, they currently have a business. People are conflating that existing business with the printing of OLEDs. That's a logical fallacy.

I will seek to learn more about their current state of affairs. In the meantime, I urge everyone interested to read their website. It explains a lot.
I remember someone was using Seiko Epson OLED print heads, but I can't remember if it was Kateeva or JDI.

DON'T ARGUE WITH ME. I AM NEVER WONG.
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post #13846 of 13852 Old 03-17-2017, 09:05 AM
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I also am not sure which print heads they are using.

I believe, however, they currently have a business. People are conflating that existing business with the printing of OLEDs. That's a logical fallacy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sytech View Post
I remember someone was using Seiko Epson OLED print heads, but I can't remember if it was Kateeva or JDI.
Thanks. I'm only interested in TFE from Kateeva. They have patents using the Fujifilm industrial SAMBA printhead in arrays but also several patents covering custom built printheads. Not sure what is in the finished yieldjet system. I just needed it for a presentation. I'll probably be visiting them later this year.

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post #13847 of 13852 Old 03-17-2017, 03:31 PM
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Note again, per xrox's post, the distinction between TFE and printing OLEDs.

Read this post from Kateeva: http://kateeva.com/press-full/kateev...on-tfe-market/

Read this as well to understand what Kateeva is selling, i.e. not OLED printers. http://www.printedelectronicsworld.c...y-headquarters

There's a saying about "everything in moderation". If only it was applied to well, you know...
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post #13848 of 13852 Old 03-17-2017, 03:48 PM
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Note again, per xrox's post, the distinction between TFE and printing OLEDs.

Read this post from Kateeva: http://kateeva.com/press-full/kateev...on-tfe-market/

Read this as well to understand what Kateeva is selling, i.e. not OLED printers. http://www.printedelectronicsworld.c...y-headquarters
Thay are almost as slippery with their use of 'YIELDjet' as Samsung is with their use of 'QLED' as an umbrella:

"Kateeva moved to its current location in early 2015 to facilitate production ramp-up of its YIELDjet™ inkjet printing manufacturing equipment for the global flat panel display industry. Since then, headcount has nearly tripled to 330 people, and orders for YIELDjet systems have soared. "

"Kateeva's first product, the[b][u] YIELDjet FLEX system[u], enabled a rapid transition from glass encapsulation to Thin Film Encapsulation (TFE) in new OLED production lines."

So the YIELDjet FLEX system has pretty much nothing to do with 'inkjet printing manufacturing equipment' and yet it is a member of the 'YIELDjet' family of systems which is defined as 'inkjet printing manufacturing equipment for the global flat panel display industry.'

Nice.
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post #13849 of 13852 Old Yesterday, 07:58 AM
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So the YIELDjet FLEX system has pretty much nothing to do with 'inkjet printing manufacturing equipment' and yet it is a member of the 'YIELDjet' family of systems which is defined as 'inkjet printing manufacturing equipment for the global flat panel display industry.'

Nice.
Why is it not inkjet manufacturing equipment? It also looks like Kateeva is using proprietary inks for TFE.

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post #13850 of 13852 Old Yesterday, 01:31 PM
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Why is it not inkjet manufacturing equipment? It also looks like Kateeva is using proprietary inks for TFE.
I was probably looser with my language than I should have been. Including the word 'patterned' would have been more precise:

'So the YIELDjet FLEX system has pretty much nothing to do with 'inkjet (patterned) printing manufacturing equipment' and yet it is a member of the 'YIELDjet' family of systems which is defined as 'inkjet (patterned) printing manufacturing equipment for the global flat panel display industry.'

The true promise of inkjet 'printing' tecnology for the flat panel idustry is predicated on the concept of being able to pattern the ink being 'jetted'. Without patterning, calling spray-painting a uniform layer onto a surface 'printing' is a stretch.

And Kateeva is riding that stretch for all it is worth...
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post #13851 of 13852 Old Today, 12:09 PM
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The true promise of inkjet 'printing' tecnology for the flat panel idustry is predicated on the concept of being able to pattern the ink being 'jetted'. Without patterning, calling spray-painting a uniform layer onto a surface 'printing' is a stretch.

And Kateeva is riding that stretch for all it is worth...
Ahh, I see now. I do agree for the most part. Some would argue that having controlled edge coating without a mask is printing despite the size. Just large geometric shapes on the motherglass. Just like a halftone squares on a paper. Also, the individual drop waveform control and combinations are pretty cool IMO.

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post #13852 of 13852 Old Today, 11:50 PM
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I'd agree it's printing.

I would just reiterate it isn't OLED printing.

It's TFE printing.

There's a saying about "everything in moderation". If only it was applied to well, you know...
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