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post #14041 of 14055 Old 07-21-2017, 06:07 PM
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Originally Posted by ynotgoal View Post
Thanks for posting the link. The specs for Cynora's blue TADF have a long way to go to meet the color and lifetime requirements for a commercial display so for now any talk of inclusion in a commercial TV is just speculation by a company looking to raise funds and make an IPO. Universal Display had phosphorescent OLEDs with these specs 3 years ago and Kyulux has TADF emitters with as good or better specs.

Regarding top emission, LG ordered pilot equipment for a test for the P10 facility. They are supposed to be able to make a decision on whether they can use top emission for P10 by the end of the year. So the first possibility of that being applied to a commercial LG TV is end of 2019, probably for a 2020 model.

Top emission would be a big deal. It would probably mean twice the amount of light output per input voltage which allows for several possibilities. In the article they talk about extending the life of the materials likely by reducing the voltage and thus lower power consumption. That approach might make it possible for a phosphorescent or a better TADF blue than is available now. Or they could just make the displays brighter. Top emission is also likely required for 8K resolution. So if the top emission pilot test works the 2020 models will be a really significant upgrade. There will be upgrades for 2018 but I have no idea what they will be.

Remember to use google translate...
http://www.kinews.net/news/articleVi...l?idxno=109092
Among them possibly a return of 3D (if it survives that long, I know, a loooong shot ).

In any case, it seems as though top-emission is LGs ace-in-the-hole for the brightness wars with Samsung QLED...

For 2018, there were some rumored composition changes for wider color gamut and/or increased brightness - we'll see if any of that materializes in a few months, but it is starting to look like LG is going to be pretty conservative, riding the 8.5G manufacturing processes they have established, until 10.5G in P10 is ready for production in a few years...

Far a 65" display at least, I would give up 8K for 4K supporting 3D in a heartbeat .
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post #14042 of 14055 Old 07-21-2017, 06:14 PM
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Is 3D even part of the UHD Blu Ray spec?

I thought it was dropped?
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post #14043 of 14055 Old 07-21-2017, 08:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ynotgoal View Post
Thanks for posting the link. The specs for Cynora's blue TADF have a long way to go to meet the color and lifetime requirements for a commercial display so for now any talk of inclusion in a commercial TV is just speculation by a company looking to raise funds and make an IPO. Universal Display had phosphorescent OLEDs with these specs 3 years ago and Kyulux has TADF emitters with as good or better specs.

Regarding top emission, LG ordered pilot equipment for a test for the P10 facility. They are supposed to be able to make a decision on whether they can use top emission for P10 by the end of the year. So the first possibility of that being applied to a commercial LG TV is end of 2019, probably for a 2020 model.

Top emission would be a big deal. It would probably mean twice the amount of light output per input voltage which allows for several possibilities. In the article they talk about extending the life of the materials likely by reducing the voltage and thus lower power consumption. That approach might make it possible for a phosphorescent or a better TADF blue than is available now. Or they could just make the displays brighter. Top emission is also likely required for 8K resolution. So if the top emission pilot test works the 2020 models will be a really significant upgrade. There will be upgrades for 2018 but I have no idea what they will be.

Remember to use google translate...
http://www.kinews.net/news/articleVi...l?idxno=109092
Finally managed to get Google translate working - you're right, they seem to be primarily concerned that the bottom-emitting technology of today will be incapable of delivering 8K tomorrow (2019) so they want to bring up top-emittibg technology by then.

And it sounds as though they intend to use through-OLED vias to get there (meaty conductors on TFT layer punching through WOLED layer electrically to energize pooly-conducting (thin) cathode conductor on glass.

I love how the article uses images of RGB OLED even though LG is based on WOLED...

Sounds as though we're in line for small incremental improvements until 2020...
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post #14044 of 14055 Old 07-21-2017, 08:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
Among them possibly a return of 3D (if it survives that long, I know, a loooong shot ).

In any case, it seems as though top-emission is LGs ace-in-the-hole for the brightness wars with Samsung QLED...

For 2018, there were some rumored composition changes for wider color gamut and/or increased brightness - we'll see if any of that materializes in a few months, but it is starting to look like LG is going to be pretty conservative, riding the 8.5G manufacturing processes they have established, until 10.5G in P10 is ready for production in a few years...

Far a 65" display at least, I would give up 8K for 4K supporting 3D in a heartbeat .
Just found this thread from Silicon Investor (appears you were a contributor ) suggesting that top emmission may be incompatible with 3D polorizers: http://www.siliconinvestor.com/readm...msgid=30524539
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post #14045 of 14055 Old 07-22-2017, 02:26 AM
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3D is not coming back.

No UHD content is being produced in 3D for consumers.

As for LG and OLED, I've long been skeptical of blue breakthroughs for the reasons ynotgoal outlined. We will know when it changes because someone will announce a set of performance characteristics that are inline with TV lifespans: tens of thousands of hours.

The top-emission stuff is fascinating because it's been clearly a roadmap issue for sometime. The putative Sony/Panasonic pseudo-joint venture was definitely headed that way. It is a huge deal and would be great to see by 2019. It will be seen by 2021-22 with some sort of certainty.

LG seems to have no intent at all to move away from WOLED. Clearly P10 is going to represent a half-decade or more investment in "making more OLEDs the way we do now". While things like bottom emission vs. top are radical changes, they are less radical than "we're going to stop vapor depositing the OLED material in a stack and instead start patterning it all".

I admit I have no real take on 8K except the belief that someday we will buy 8K. It seems unlikely to be anytime soon. It seems unlikely to offer anything discernible.

I'm much more interested in LG getting better at fill factor vs. today's abysmal pixel-to-panel ratio. Do we see top emission as part of that?
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post #14046 of 14055 Old 07-22-2017, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
top emmission may be incompatible with 3D polorizers
A polarizer probably wouldn't be needed with top emission. As others have said 3D is not coming back.

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Originally Posted by rogo View Post
I'm much more interested in LG getting better at fill factor vs. today's abysmal pixel-to-panel ratio. Do we see top emission as part of that?
Yes, definitely.
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post #14047 of 14055 Old 07-22-2017, 08:37 PM
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Does anyone have any idea if LG will make a RADICAL decision to release a 43" oled tv in 2018? They would not need to use any untested technology, just go smaller.

Retail costs for a 55" 4k oled is around 2k, 2.5k for the 2017 versions. So would it be such a stretch to see a 43" 4k oled tv released next year for around 1000 dollars?

Too low?


I keep asking because I have graduated from the small monitor club, and basically use a 43" sony 4k tv to tide me over while I am waiting for oled to get cheaper and smaller. At 43 inches, not ONLY will an lg oled be able to better break into the small tv console gaming market for less cost sensitive families and their spoiled brat kids.. the near HOLY GRAIL of computer monitors will finally be upon us.


4k @ 43" is similar ppi to a 1440p 27" monitor, it's a GREAT size for having more screen real estate, more immersive gaming, full vision video like youtube for desktop distance viewing... it is literally the perfect size, but so far, lg is not even thinking about this size and market.

At a thousand dollars, lg would OWN the high end monitor market for everyone that did not want to go that large. And if they added the following enhancements...

-sub 20ms input lag for gaming
-hdmi 2.1 / displayport 1.4x (whatever this next version is going to be called https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DisplayPort#Next_version that increases bandwidth to match thunderbolt 3 - that will probably give enough headroom for 120Hz with HDR)
-120Hz variable refresh display to enhance desktop and console gaming (next xbox)


I was in best buy today, and walked past the oleds and stopped... the display is so beautiful, and that beauty is being completely denied for pc gaming unless someone strapped a too large 55" display to a tower, and even then, we would be nice to have higher refresh rates and variable refresh rates and connectors that had enough bandwidth to drive that with no problems and lower input lag... and we can have all that !!!!!! We can if only LG would THINK about trying to cater to that BLACK HOLE in the market. I just spent 700 dollars on this sony tv last year, and would HAPPILY spend another thousand next year if LG let me. Will they let me? And if not, when?

Does anyone know anyone from lg? Seriously, can someone talk to them and ask them, BEG them, PLEAD with them to look at this segment?
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post #14048 of 14055 Old 07-23-2017, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ynotgoal View Post
Thanks for posting the link. The specs for Cynora's blue TADF have a long way to go to meet the color and lifetime requirements for a commercial display so for now any talk of inclusion in a commercial TV is just speculation by a company looking to raise funds and make an IPO. Universal Display had phosphorescent OLEDs with these specs 3 years ago and Kyulux has TADF emitters with as good or better specs.

Regarding top emission, LG ordered pilot equipment for a test for the P10 facility. They are supposed to be able to make a decision on whether they can use top emission for P10 by the end of the year. So the first possibility of that being applied to a commercial LG TV is end of 2019, probably for a 2020 model.

Top emission would be a big deal. It would probably mean twice the amount of light output per input voltage which allows for several possibilities. In the article they talk about extending the life of the materials likely by reducing the voltage and thus lower power consumption. That approach might make it possible for a phosphorescent or a better TADF blue than is available now. Or they could just make the displays brighter. Top emission is also likely required for 8K resolution. So if the top emission pilot test works the 2020 models will be a really significant upgrade. There will be upgrades for 2018 but I have no idea what they will be.

Remember to use google translate...
http://www.kinews.net/news/articleVi...l?idxno=109092
Thinking over this some more, it's a pretty major change to the manufacturing process to achieve top-emission and it's going to require punching-through the WOLED layer (which is not required with bottom-emission).

Do we have any idea how LG is planning to get a conducting layer through the WOLED layers? Can the WOLED layers be easily etched?

Up to now, one of the big advantages LG's WOLED architecture has had for large-screen format has been the avoidance of any patterning of the OLED layers. Even though patterning for a conducting layer through a WOLED layer should be easier than patterning of OLED layers themselves (ie: for RGB OLED), it's still a big change in process.

An further insight as to how LG plans to approach this and what risks may be involved would be interesting...
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post #14049 of 14055 Old 07-23-2017, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by ynotgoal View Post
A polarizer probably wouldn't be needed with top emission. As others have said 3D is not coming back.
Was a pllarizer required for bottom-emission?

At any rate, while I accept that 3D will never be coming back in the way it was originally envisioned, as long as new 3D Blurays are being issued it is premature to call the format dead...

Quote:
Yes, definitely.
On fill-factor, I'm not sure I understand.

I believe what Rogo is most unhappy with is the large inter-subpixel gaps in current WOLED technology, and I believe these are primarily driven by the need to prevent subpixel light bleed.

Going from bottom to top emission may reduce the amound of light dispersion somewhat and so may allow for sone reduction of those inter-subpixel gaps, but I believe gaps of some size will still be needed.

To be honest, while I also objected to the noticable inter-pixel gaps on the 1080p WOLEDs (EC9300), since the move to 4K resolution, they are a non-issue to me (invisible, at least on a 65" screen).

If I understand correctly, the primary benefit to top-emission is transmittance through a thin transparant cathode later rather than transmittance through a multi-later transpaent-as-possible TFT layer. The % of light that makes it through the thin transparent cathode layer should be greater than the % that makes it through the multi-layer TFT layer (so either brightness is increased or power consumption can be decreased).

There may also be some improvement to the minor remaining off-axis color-shift of WOLED.
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post #14050 of 14055 Old 07-24-2017, 12:33 AM
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Red face

[quote=Sammael;54468169]Does anyone have any idea if LG will make a RADICAL decision to release a 43" oled tv in 2018? They would not need to use any untested technology, just go smaller.

Retail costs for a 55" 4k oled is around 2k, 2.5k for the 2017 versions. So would it be such a stretch to see a 43" 4k oled tv released next year for around 1000 dollars?

Too low?......

.......

Maybe this is EXTREME! Like I wrote in a previous post it would be enough to have on market a 49-50" OLED which is as big as old 43" plasma! I think lots of plasma enthusiasts would be more than happy to make the switch!
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post #14051 of 14055 Old 07-24-2017, 09:33 AM
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At any rate, while I accept that 3D will never be coming back in the way it was originally envisioned, as long as new 3D Blurays are being issued it is premature to call the format dead...
Accept that everything is being "product-ized" around 4K. 3D BluRay is not 4K.

Accept also that even BluRay player penetration is falling at this point through "decommissioning" of BluRay players with no replacements.

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To be honest, while I also objected to the noticable inter-pixel gaps on the 1080p WOLEDs (EC9300), since the move to 4K resolution, they are a non-issue to me (invisible, at least on a 65" screen).

...


If I understand correctly, the primary benefit to top-emission is transmittance through a thin transparant cathode later rather than transmittance through a multi-later transpaent-as-possible TFT layer. The % of light that makes it through the thin transparent cathode layer should be greater than the % that makes it through the multi-layer TFT layer (so either brightness is increased or power consumption can be decreased).

There may also be some improvement to the minor remaining off-axis color-shift of WOLED.
The whole problem with the low fill factor isn't the visible grid (I'm not of those people, seeing a grid no human has the visual perception to perceive). The whole problem is everywhere there isn't pixel, there's no light. The OLED would be much brighter, and with higher dynamic range, if you could emit over a greater portion of the surface. No, power isn't free (though close enough here) and no this isn't an order of magnitude difference, but the more area we're looking at that "lights up" the better.

And so yes, if top emission delivers on the promise of higher brightness or lower power consumption and could offer us smaller interpixel spacing which could allow more brightness or lower power consumption -- we have multiple vectors to either improve lifetime (drive things less hard) or improve light output.

That's why it's important and interesting to discuss these things somewhat in tandem. (Again, I asked a question about fill factor as I'm not an expert in whether top emission allows it to be improved... just noting we are all heading in the same direction about improvements.)

PS -- While I believe that top emission is a big deal generally, too, I wouldn't urge anyone to wait for an innovation that may/may not come with the 2020 models. That's so far away, could easily be delayed or scrapped, etc. etc. Would you wait till 2022 for an innovation? Not likely. Of course, if you have a great TV right now that might serve you till 2022 and keep you happy, fine, you can muse about when in the future to make a change.

There's a saying about "everything in moderation". If only it was applied to well, you know...
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post #14052 of 14055 Old 07-25-2017, 05:57 AM
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In addition to the earning results, LGD detailed its investment path for OLEDs, as was decided in a recent board meeting. First of all, LGD decided to build a 10.5-Gen (2940x3370 mm) OLED line in its upcoming P10 fab in Paju. LGD will make an up-front investment of KRW2.8 trillion ($2.5 billion USD). The whole fab will require more investments but LGD says it is taking a prudent approach - it will only begin mass production of OLED TVs after stabilizing the technology for these extra large size substrates.
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In addition to these investments, LGD decided to establish a 8.5-Gen (2200x2500) OLED line in Guangzhou, China, to make OLED TV panels. This fab will be a joint-venture with a local company (that LGD did not disclose) and LGD will hold a 70% share. The total cost for this fab will be KRW2.6 trillion ($2.3 billion USD). LGD wants to be closer to the Chinese market, which is the largest TV market in the world - and this is the first time a Korean company plans to produce OLEDs outside of Korea.
https://www.oled-info.com/lgd-announ...line-guangzhou
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post #14053 of 14055 Old 07-25-2017, 09:33 AM
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What happened to 9.5-gen?
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post #14054 of 14055 Old Yesterday, 02:34 AM
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As noted by expert site, the 10.5-Gen line will make possíble significant expansion of OLED into the 80"-100" display segment and even beyond.
How long the process from the investment decision to mass manufacturing takes?

Last edited by irkuck; Yesterday at 02:37 AM.
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post #14055 of 14055 Old Today, 04:27 AM
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Some points of interest from LG Display earnings. Some of the following is from various articles in Korean.

https://seekingalpha.com/article/409...pt?part=single

- LGD is going to add 60k of Gen 8.5 OLED capacity in China. This capacity will come on-line in the first half of 2019.

- They had 34k of Gen 8.5 capacity at the beginning of this year and are adding another 26k right now. There is no additional capacity coming on-line in 2018. If demand comes in ahead of supply they will consider using multi-modal glass (cut 3 65" and 2" 55" substrates from one sheet).

- They are going to be careful to prove out their Gen 10.5 P10 fab ahead of OLED mass production. It sounds like they will work on backplane uniformity and yields beginning in 2019 before beginning OLED mass production in 2020. They will prove out the production using LCD's. However, they were adamant that this was simply to prove out production and that any sales will simply be opportunistic. The first phase of Gen 10.5 fab is 30k substrates.

- They expect 10% of their revenue to be OLED in 2017 shifting to 40% in 2020.

- Total OLED TV volume is expected to be 2.5 million in 2018 and over 6 million in 2020.

FWIW, between mobile OLED and OLED TV's, they are increasing their capex pace by about 2/3's. They said they might need debt to finance the various projects. This is the simple issue with LGD being the only OLED TV supplier. They simply arent big enough to fund a continuous doubling of capacity each year.
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