OLED TVs: Technology Advancements Thread - Page 473 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #14161 of 14186 Old 09-09-2017, 01:43 PM
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I guess there will never be a perfect TV.

But there's not a lot of 4K HDR content around other than streaming.
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post #14162 of 14186 Old 09-09-2017, 02:16 PM
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I'm holding out as long as I can to purchase an OLED.

What am I waiting for?
  • 70+ inch at a reasonable cost
  • HDR10+ support (is HDMI 2.1 needed for this?)
  • My Kuro still looks pretty good but is getting more grey, I'm not sure if it's worth the trouble to try the black reset procedure.
  • Some cash.
I don't watch content that would produce burn in.

One way to look at it is cost per year of service. My 60 Kuro has cost me about $670/year so far. At that price a 65 OLED would need to last 4 3/4 years and it probably would. The problem I see is that I'd want to get a larger screen and there would likely be substantial improvements in color and brightness in 2 years. So I'll continue to hold out, although low model close out pricing might temp me. At around $2000 that would be pretty good. I'm not sure if anyone would give me anything for my Kuro but that might be a factor too.

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post #14163 of 14186 Old 09-09-2017, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by joys_R_us View Post
For plasma owners who need a new tv now (like me) there is just no alternative to oleds. And as the prices came down quite a lot I am going to buy one in November.

Fed up of waiting and already 62 of age...life is too short for doubts re. a tv.

It is just a tv ! Relax and enjoy. And if too much in doubt lower the oled light and avoid programs with nasty logos.
I said this in a PM to rogo but will repeat it here.

While I'm not a big believer in extended warrantys in general, the Geek Squad warranty covering burn-in is something to strongly consider for someone contemplating picking up an OLED this year.

As I've already stated, I believe it is inevitable that LG will offer a warranty against burn-in matching or at least half-matching Samsung's, but that may not happen before 2019 (possibly 2018).

Until then, a Geek Squad warranty offers great peace-of-mind while the true vulnerability of WOLED to differential-aging-based-burn-in is getting sussed out...

p.s. on te 3D-chess game being played between Samsung and LG, it'll be interesting to see whether Samsung maintains their 10-year warranty against burn-in if/when they release EL-QLED TVs (and possibly also OL-QLED (QDCF) TVs).

Of course, they have no choice but to use this tactic to try to disrupt/slow-down WOLEDs progress right now - WOLED will completely dominate the entire Premium TV segment 5 years ftom now when Samsung may be in a positon to launch EL-QLED TVs if they don't find a wrench to throw into the gears...

Strategically, between indistrializing EL-QLED TV and implementing improved technologies to better compensate for differential aging, I think LG has better odds of being where they need to be in 5 years. So tactically, it becomes a game of Samsung trying to slow them down in whatever way possible one year at a time so EL-QLED has a chance to launch on a more level playing field.

It's actually a great time to be a videophile - the next few years are going to drive innovation of display technology at speeds we have never seen before.
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post #14164 of 14186 Old 09-09-2017, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
I said this in a PM to rogo but will repeat it here.

It's actually a great time to be a videophile - the next few years are going to drive innovation of display technology at speeds we have never seen before.
You said it! This is particularly true/satisfying after about ~7 years of stagnation in video display technology, the last few years have been exciting and it looks like the best is yet to come.

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post #14165 of 14186 Old 09-09-2017, 10:29 PM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post
I shared this with fafrd in a PM, but will add it to the discussion:

I personally cannot see how one buys one of these right now. Too much risk associated with premature unhappiness. I tend to buy once every 6 years, but even at 2x that frequency, it sounds like I could experience what others are.

Eagerly awaiting what LG has on tap for 2018.
Thankfully for me I don't fall into that mindset. I took the plunge in July and got a 65C7P but had much trepidation due to this thread (well at the time this thread didn't exist, it was all in the owners thread).

I am extremely happy with my set. Is it perfect? Nope, but I know LCDs aren't either, and I'll take the imperfections of OLED over the imperfections of LCD every day!
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post #14166 of 14186 Old 09-10-2017, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by blackjackmark View Post
Thankfully for me I don't fall into that mindset. I took the plunge in July and got a 65C7P but had much trepidation due to this thread (well at the time this thread didn't exist, it was all in the owners thread).

I am extremely happy with my set. Is it perfect? Nope, but I know LCDs aren't either, and I'll take the imperfections of OLED over the imperfections of LCD every day!
This x 1000. I'm so glad I didn't let the "fear" hold me back from owning the best pq I have ever seen. I can see its not for everyone just yet and maybe never for some, but I'm a pq fanboy and there is no other choice but oled!

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post #14167 of 14186 Old 09-10-2017, 03:05 PM
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I agree. Hopefully LG has already been working on this. It's not rocket-science, just a question of memory and processing power (and LG already has 50% in place from how they compensate for threshold-shift).

Give me a fast enough processor and a large enough memory, and subpixel-level compensation for differential aging is a very solvable problem on a very predictable timeline which improves the user experience. Again, hopefully LG has already been working on this since surviving the Brightness Wars .
It's not as simple as you suggest and the pros/cons of each wear compensation approach are discussed in one of the LG patent applications. They also list why they went with the current state-less solution. Unfortunately, I don't have the link handy (I think I posted it somewhere in the burn-in pictures thread) but from memory, some issues with tracking per-pixel usage are:

1) The history can be lost due to component failure. It would also tie the history to the panel so you couldn't store it on the motherboard.
2) The wear is not 100% predicable. Depends on hours, content, and material efficiency of each specific pixel. We already know the pixels don't all respond the same to equal input or your wouldn't see all the existing uniformity problems. If you guess wrong and over-compensate, you're actually causing what appears like reverse-burn-in where there was no problem in reality.

Covering up or preventing the problem is not the answer. Increasing true lifespan and decay curve is the only real long-term solution. It worked for CRT and mostly worked for plasma (barring a few specific models that were IR/BI magnets).
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post #14168 of 14186 Old 09-10-2017, 03:38 PM
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It's not as simple as you suggest and the pros/cons of each wear compensation approach are discussed in one of the LG patent applications. They also list why they went with the current state-less solution. Unfortunately, I don't have the link handy (I think I posted it somewhere in the burn-in pictures thread) but from memory, some issues with tracking per-pixel usage are:

1) The history can be lost due to component failure. It would also tie the history to the panel so you couldn't store it on the motherboard.
2) The wear is not 100% predicable. Depends on hours, content, and material efficiency of each specific pixel. We already know the pixels don't all respond the same to equal input or your wouldn't see all the existing uniformity problems. If you guess wrong and over-compensate, you're actually causing what appears like reverse-burn-in where there was no problem in reality.

Covering up or preventing the problem is not the answer. Increasing true lifespan and decay curve is the only real long-term solution. It worked for CRT and mostly worked for plasma (barring a few specific models that were IR/BI magnets).
You raise good points and another important variable impacting aging rate is temperature, but in my view they are going to have to deploy something next year or by 2019 unless they have a massive new-panel-rabbit in their hat.

Since estimated-aging-based-compensation is an overlay, one option could be to put it under user control. If it reduces apparent burn-in, you use it, if it doesn't (or you don't have any burn-in), you don't, if reduces visible burn-in up to a certain point/%, you dial it into there and leave it at that.

LG is going to have to do something to answer the threat of Samsung's 10-year burn-in warranty, and I doubt the market is going to give them until 2020 for that answer.

Per-subpixel tracking (approximated), modeling of aging and compensation overlay under user control will no doubt be far from perfect, but it can't be worse than what heavy CNN/MSNBC watchers are left with right now...
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post #14169 of 14186 Old 09-10-2017, 04:56 PM
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This might be the patent I was thinking of. It's actually from Kodak but likely owned by LG now.

They discuss several approaches utilizing usage 'memory' in the 'BACKGROUND OF THE INVENTION' section.

"This technique requires the measurement and accumulation of drive current applied to each pixel, requiring a stored memory that must be continuously updated as the display is used, requiring complex and extensive circuitry."

"This design requires the use of a calculation unit responsive to each signal sent to each pixel to record usage, greatly increasing the complexity of the circuit design."

Guess I forgot to add this to my original list above:

3) Cost.
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post #14170 of 14186 Old 09-10-2017, 09:11 PM
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I saw someone mention in one of these threads the ability to use a very sensitive, specialized "camera" for lack of a better term, to take a photo of a burned in OLED screen, and that would provide the measurements needed that could be used to create and apply a specific compensation program that would in effect clear up the burn in.

Is this something LG could do, maybe as a warranty covered free fix for anyone that experiences burn in? Probably a lot cheaper than panel replacements.

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post #14171 of 14186 Old 09-10-2017, 09:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post
This might be the patent I was thinking of. It's actually from Kodak but likely owned by LG now.

They discuss several approaches utilizing usage 'memory' in the 'BACKGROUND OF THE INVENTION' section.

"This technique requires the measurement and accumulation of drive current applied to each pixel, requiring a stored memory that must be continuously updated as the display is used, requiring complex and extensive circuitry."

"This design requires the use of a calculation unit responsive to each signal sent to each pixel to record usage, greatly increasing the complexity of the circuit design."

Guess I forgot to add this to my original list above:

3) Cost.
As I've already stated in one post or another, in the plasma-era, this would certainly have been a consideration, but here in the thick of the smartphone era, when both processing power and memory are essentially free, implementation complexity and cost of this approach (or at least some subsampled approximation of it) is a non-issue...
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post #14172 of 14186 Old 09-10-2017, 09:27 PM
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I saw someone mention in one of these threads the ability to use a very sensitive, specialized "camera" for lack of a better term, to take a photo of a burned in OLED screen, and that would provide the measurements needed that could be used to create and apply a specific compensation program that would in effect clear up the burn in.

Is this something LG could do, maybe as a warranty covered free fix for anyone that experiences burn in? Probably a lot cheaper than panel replacements.
Talk about 'calibration' .

If WOLED ends up getting relegated to a videophile-only niche, this might technically be an option, but it would mean LG's bet on WOLED as a mass-market technology has failed, it would require adding some controls and engineering cost I doubt they'd have the stomach for, and service and support would be a total nightmare.
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post #14173 of 14186 Old 09-11-2017, 03:50 AM
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Talk about 'calibration' .

If WOLED ends up getting relegated to a videophile-only niche, this might technically be an option, but it would mean LG's bet on WOLED as a mass-market technology has failed, it would require adding some controls and engineering cost I doubt they'd have the stomach for, and service and support would be a total nightmare.


I doubt that LG OLEDs are more susceptible to burn-in than Plasma, just to put it in perspective.


- Rich
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post #14174 of 14186 Old 09-11-2017, 03:55 AM
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[quote=Wizziwig;54775778]It's not as simple as you suggest and the pros/cons of each wear compensation approach are discussed in one of the LG patent applications. They also list why they went with the current state-less solution. Unfortunately, I don't have the link handy (I think I posted it somewhere in the burn-in pictures thread) but from memory, some issues with tracking per-pixel usage are:

1) The history can be lost due to component failure. It would also tie the history to the panel so you couldn't store it on the motherboard.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post
It would need to be stored in non-volatile storage. Panel replacement is rare and there can be a procedure to clear the memory in this case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post
2) The wear is not 100% predicable. Depends on hours, content, and material efficiency of each specific pixel. We already know the pixels don't all respond the same to equal input or your wouldn't see all the existing uniformity problems. If you guess wrong and over-compensate, you're actually causing what appears like reverse-burn-in where there was no problem in reality.
Shipment is a baseline. The panels are already resistant so a statistical sample of persistent display of tickers can be accurate.

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Covering up or preventing the problem is not the answer. Increasing true lifespan and decay curve is the only real long-term solution. It worked for CRT and mostly worked for plasma (barring a few specific models that were IR/BI magnets).
Absolutely, but CRT's gave us "screen savers"

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post #14175 of 14186 Old 09-11-2017, 07:54 AM
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I doubt that LG OLEDs are more susceptible to burn-in than Plasma, just to put it in perspective.


- Rich
Totally agree. If OLED is calibrated down to 130cd/m2, which is about the maximum plasma could deliver (expect, perhaps, for the Samsung F8500), it takes 1000 hours of cumulative qualifying static logo display to see evidence if burn-in.

Plasma could never get anywhere close to the 450 cd/m2 peak output levels that is allowing some users to develop burn in after only 200-300 hours with OLED Light cranket up to 80 or 100.

So yes, WOLED is much less susceptible to burn-in in than plasma in an apples-to-apples comparison, though LG has made buen-in more possible by engaging in the brightness wars and allowing owners to put their WOLEDs in torch-mode.

My point was that solutions that would not have been practical/possible when plasma was state-of-the-art should now be relatively straightforward in the era of low-cost GHz processors and GB flash drives...
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post #14176 of 14186 Old 09-11-2017, 09:42 AM
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Absolutely, but CRT's gave us "screen savers"

- Rich
I and my coworkers used CRTs exclusively for work during the early 2000's and never used screen savers. They would have been ineffective when you're spending 8+ hours per day coding or doing photoshop (except maybe lunch breaks). Never seen a single example of burn-in, even on samples that were in the field for years. There was plenty of static on-screen elements such as the Windows XP task bar and various buttons and borders of each specific app. That sort of abuse would destroy an OLED (and most likely a plasma) in a matter of months. I suspect their true lifespans must have been an order of magnitude or higher better than current OLED. I did see CRT burn-in when I was still in school on old monochrome CRT terminals.

Incidentally, I also still have a Sony 34" CRT HDTV. It never gets any use these days but before plasma replaced it, it regularly displayed static content for hours on end, including news stations with tickers. Again, no sign of burn-in.

If OLEDs ever reach the same brightness decay curve as a final generation CRT, we can easily consider burn-in as a solved problem.

Now it's true that CRT's never reached the kind of brightness levels that current LCD and OLEDs can pump out. So maybe it's not a fair fight. But that's the world we live in and you can't prevent consumers from using whatever brightness range is offered by the display. If LG knows they can't safely provide this level of brightness, they should not ship TV's that allow it.
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post #14177 of 14186 Old 09-11-2017, 03:25 PM
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In all honesty I dont see it as a huge engineering hurdle to overcome. I really think that their existing logo local dimming can be reworked to "aggressively" dim the static pixels (and maybe inverse the color). That should be good enough to mitigate zelda and the fake news networks which caused the majority of burn in cases reported on this forum....

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post #14178 of 14186 Old 09-14-2017, 03:38 AM
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In all honesty I dont see it as a huge engineering hurdle to overcome. I really think that their existing logo local dimming can be reworked to "aggressively" dim the static pixels (and maybe inverse the color). That should be good enough to mitigate zelda and the fake news networks which caused the majority of burn in cases reported on this forum....

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Amen!

There is not much to engineer here, it's a rare occurrence and having been an owner since 2015 with 2 OLED's on hand I have yet to have any issues in this regard.

It's rare period and you really have to have something static for days not hours. All settings to the extreme brightness etc.

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post #14179 of 14186 Old 09-14-2017, 08:42 AM
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Amen!

There is not much to engineer here, it's a rare occurrence and having been an owner since 2015 with 2 OLED's on hand I have yet to have any issues in this regard.

It's rare period and you really have to have something static for days not hours. All settings to the extreme brightness etc.
With OLED Light cranked up to 80+, it seems to typically take ~300 hours of cumulative qualifying static element display do develope differential-aging-based burn-in, so days is correct (even over a week), but that is days of cumulative display (not uninterrupted consecutive display).

On the ther hand, it is not correct that you need to have 'all settings to extreme brightness' - even with OLED Light set below 40 (130-150cd/m2 peak), qualifying static element display can cause burn once cumulative display times exceed ~1000 hours, so weeks, not days .

In terms of 'qualifying staic elements', these are bright fully-saturated yellow/orange/red or green static display elements, and at this point, there are four classes that have been reported:

-CNN or MSNBC logos (most common cause)
-some game HUDs (red Zelda Hearts is one reported example)
-yellow subtitles (one report)
-yellow progress bar from media player (one report)

The burn-in test being run by Rtings.com is going to shed some light on this subject over the coming weeks.

Burn-in is a rare occurance for those who don't have qualifying viewing habits, but is appears that heavy CNN or MSNBC watchers are not going to be happy with the current generation of WOLED.

LG needs to up their game in this department or Samsung and their marketing prowess could mop the floor with them...
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post #14180 of 14186 Old 09-14-2017, 08:45 AM
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In all honesty I dont see it as a huge engineering hurdle to overcome. I really think that their existing logo local dimming can be reworked to "aggressively" dim the static pixels (and maybe inverse the color). That should be good enough to mitigate zelda and the fake news networks which caused the majority of burn in cases reported on this forum....

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Totally agree. I believe it's primarily an issue of urgency and priority - hopefully LG is waking up to the fact that the situation is becoming urgent, making it a high priority, and will have improvements to roll out in 2018...
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post #14181 of 14186 Old 09-14-2017, 08:57 AM
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I think it's safe to say that both OLED and LCD technology has advanced so far past the source content we get (cable/satellite/fake 4K/HDR) that you never really see the capability of your TV.

Outside of some native 4K/HDR full processing clips on YouTube and an occasional 4K/HDR Bluray disc that knocks your socks off, you're always dealing with inferior source content and relying on the processing capability of your TV to make the most of a bad situation.

You couldn't make this statement back when SD converted to HD. Everybody jumped on board, quickly, and soon SD was a thing of the past. Not so with today's technology. No matter the exponential advances of TV's that can handle 4K & HDR, HDR 10+, Dolby Vision - - we're stuck in a time warp until the content can catch up. Care to guess on how long it will take to have a full 4K/HDR signal from broadcast TV or cable/satellite? Are we really 3 to 5 years out?

And I'm not talking about Comcast providing a 4K/HDR STB that can stream Netflix. Example - Sports: I'm talking about 4K/HDR from the field to your TV in all it's glory. What's the over/under, years wise, on that? (And I'm talking about the majority - 90% of your content in 4K/HDR)

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post #14182 of 14186 Old 09-14-2017, 10:13 AM
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Sorry if this has already been covered, but when do you guys expect to see OLED TVs from LG in sizes around say 100", then around 120"?

I see this article:

http://4k.com/news/lg-wants-to-make-...res-how-20622/

talks about LG setting themselves up to make much larger OLEDs, but I didn't see a timeframe or sizes.

Thanks,
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post #14183 of 14186 Old 09-14-2017, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by darinp View Post
Sorry if this has already been covered, but when do you guys expect to see OLED TVs from LG in sizes around say 100", then around 120"?

I see this article:

http://4k.com/news/lg-wants-to-make-...res-how-20622/

talks about LG setting themselves up to make much larger OLEDs, but I didn't see a timeframe or sizes.
Answer: Yes, but not for quite some time. The new fab needs to be constructed (mostly next year), ramped (mostly 2019), etc.

Giant TVs seem like an inevitable offering, but 2020-21 seems like the timeframe.
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post #14184 of 14186 Old 09-16-2017, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wco81 View Post
I guess there will never be a perfect TV.
Your guess sounds depressive but OLED is not end-of-the-world tech . Promise for prefection is now by iLED (Inorganic LED) a.k.a discrete led. Like the Radiance LED from Digital Projection or Cinema Screen by Samsung. These are now for big commercial displays but if the discrete led pixel pitch is scaled down, a consumer-size display can is created with very robust light output and color reprodu tion. The current pitch of the smallest Radiance is 1.5 mm with 1.2 mm coming. For consumer size that would need to be still scaled to 0.5-0.6 mm for displays in the 100"+ range which looks doable.
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post #14185 of 14186 Old 09-16-2017, 09:34 AM
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I think the people who've held off on OLED have done so for lack of content as much as not enough refinement in current products.

If there were regular UHD HDR broadcasts, many more would have jumped in by now.
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post #14186 of 14186 Old Today, 01:21 AM
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I'm holding off because there's no way I'm going to spend so much on a TV only to have variable refresh rate and 4k 120Hz input get added a year or two later.

And for reference, my HTPC will need a complete revamp for 4k anyway as it's actually an Elitebook 8440p (with discrete Nvidia graphics that murdered any semblance of battery life) with the screen removed and 120mm + 140mm desktop PC case fans in place of the integrated keyboard (the integrated fan was whiny and eventually stopped working anyway), and said laptop only had a DisplayPort 1.1 output.

Besides, Ryzen APUs aren't even out yet, and that was my minimum requirement for the aforementioned revamped HTPC.

Last edited by NintendoManiac64; Today at 01:38 AM.
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