OLED TVs: Technology Advancements Thread - Page 86 - AVS Forum
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post #2551 of 11258 Old 09-08-2011, 10:32 PM
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Originally Posted by guidryp View Post

No, the real difference with the "plus" OLEDs is that they are NOT pentile, but full RGB array.

Yes if you are talking about the differences between Samsung's own "Super AMOLED" and "Super AMOLED plus" . But if you are talking about Sony's OLED then no - Sony's OLED also uses "normal" RGB array.

Sony is dead.
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post #2552 of 11258 Old 09-10-2011, 02:05 PM
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Why did the Sony XEL-1's brightness begin fading off axis?

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post #2553 of 11258 Old 09-12-2011, 03:29 PM
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http://news.sel.sony.com/en/press_ro...ase/60813.html

Quote:


SONY INTRODUCES THE WORLDS FIRST PERSONAL 3D VIEWER



Equipped With Twin OLED Panels- Head-Mounted Display Delivers Immersive 3D/HD Viewing Experience

INDIANAPOLIS, Sept. 7, 2011 (CEDIA Booth #1803) - Sony Electronics today announced the launch of HMZ-T1, Personal 3D Viewer. The head mounted display is a device that offers a one of a kind style viewing of both 2D and 3D content. Simply slip the device onto your head to experience the movie theater-like virtual screen and surround sound.

Equipped with two newly-developed 0.7-inch (diagonal) Ultra-Small High Definition Color OLED Panels, the Personal 3D Viewer leverages Sony's expertise in both OLED display and semiconductor drive technologies. The HMZ-T1 achieves HD picture (1280 x 720) quality that makes full use of the OLED display's high contrast, wide color gamut, and fast refresh rate. In addition, the device adopts the dual panel 3D method which displays an independent HD picture to each eye in order to achieve a more natural 3D image. The viewer enjoys a bright 3D picture that is crosstalk-free.

Viewers enjoy an immersive experience which is similar to watching video on a large screen approximating 150-inches from 12-feet away (750-inch virtual screen, virtual viewing distance approximately 65-feet away). Sony has also adapted its original virtual surround signal processing technology to deliver powerful acoustical equivalent of a 5.1 channel surround-sound system.

Sony is the leader in bringing 3D to the home. From the Lens to the Living Room' - professional production technology to home viewing on 3D BRAVIA® HDTVs- Sony 3D gear sets the standard. This year, 3D got personal with the delivery of VAIO models and PlayStation®3 3D titles. Handycam® and Cybershot® cameras are also capable of capturing and playing back 3D memories. Now, the HMZ-T1 brings a whole new concept to 3D viewing, further expanding Sony's 3D world.



The Personal 3D Viewer will be arriving in the Unites States in November and is priced around $799.

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post #2554 of 11258 Old 09-12-2011, 05:29 PM
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I'll buy a head mounted display once they are 1080p. It'll be fantastic for gaming and solo movie time! Maybe if it doesn't cause too much eye strain, I'd use it for surfing the net too, but I'm sure it'd cause a lot of eye strain, especially when the display is 2 inches in front...
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post #2555 of 11258 Old 09-12-2011, 06:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

yes but apparently the transport affects both the PPI and size. So if it works at 7.7" I would guess 1080p on 10" and 30" should not be a problem.

Pudding for the 50" is probably still in the baking

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Originally Posted by Holy bear View Post

Yes if you are talking about the differences between Samsung's own "Super AMOLED" and "Super AMOLED plus" . But if you are talking about Sony's OLED then no - Sony's OLED also uses "normal" RGB array.

Interesting info. Looks like resolution should not be an issue.

"Samsung showed off an impressively hi-res screen at Display Week in Los Angeles back in May. The 2560x1600 panel made for tablets measures 10.1” and offers lower power consumption than typical LCDs. Why? Samsung’s PenTile technology used in AMOLED screens, developed in partnership with Nouvoyance, contains fewer sub-pixels than the average RGB LCD display."

http://www.tested.com/news/how-penti...s-better/2446/
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post #2556 of 11258 Old 09-16-2011, 12:34 PM
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I've completed another technology trend analysis for work on OLED/TFT/Solar Cell and was interested in what some of you have to say (who follow this thread and OLED tech) regarding the direction research is going over the last 2 years.

In other words, in your opinion what is the hot topic(s) of OLED research over the last two years?

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post #2557 of 11258 Old 09-16-2011, 08:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by powertoold View Post

I'll buy a head mounted display once they are 1080p. It'll be fantastic for gaming and solo movie time! Maybe if it doesn't cause too much eye strain, I'd use it for surfing the net too, but I'm sure it'd cause a lot of eye strain, especially when the display is 2 inches in front...

Console gaming is all 720p. 3D from a PC is limited to 720p via HDMI.

1080p would only be advantageous for Blu-ray. 720p is actually better for gaming.
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post #2558 of 11258 Old 09-16-2011, 09:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

Interesting info. Looks like resolution should not be an issue.

"Samsung showed off an impressively hi-res screen at Display Week in Los Angeles back in May. The 2560x1600 panel made for tablets measures 10.1 and offers lower power consumption than typical LCDs. Why? Samsung's PenTile technology used in AMOLED screens, developed in partnership with Nouvoyance, contains fewer sub-pixels than the average RGB LCD display."

http://www.tested.com/news/how-penti...s-better/2446/

They need to stop with Pentile, since it sucks.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #2559 of 11258 Old 09-17-2011, 11:53 AM
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I understand that Sony is only putting out very small volumes of their OLED TVs, but I still find it odd that there is nothing about what fab they're using. For all the talk about Samsung's fabs, and all the talk about LG's grandiose talk about future fabs, Sony somehow seems to escape general notice.

In essence, above is a plea for minimal education. I'm sure that there's a bunch of stuff I'm missing in OLED, but this is a kind of big thing to be missing.
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post #2560 of 11258 Old 09-18-2011, 05:50 PM
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Not sure if LED backlit can be considered as LED display just as OLED backlit can be considered as OLED display. LGD probably need 4 3.5G substrate to make one 55" but higher tolerance for backlight quality I would think.

"- Both SMD and LGD developed 55" OLED TV

(1) SMD: SMS (small mask scanning) method

(2) LGD: W-OLED (White OLED) method

- SMD and LGD to announce the 55" OLED TV at FPD Japan Conference in Oct

- 8G AMOLED new lines to start production from 2012, earlier than expected" - Hyundai Securities

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Originally Posted by xrox View Post

In other words, in your opinion what is the hot topic(s) of OLED research over the last two years?

The new manufacturing process of 8G plants and blue OLED half-life?
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post #2561 of 11258 Old 09-19-2011, 04:44 AM
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Finally.

I had becoming a little disturbed by the lack of prototypes at the various shows. This lends some more credence to the various reports of the experimental Gen 8 fabs being built within the next year.

It will be interesting to hear about the comparative visual quality of the two approaches.

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post #2562 of 11258 Old 09-19-2011, 07:43 AM
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An in-depth look at the OLED industry from a Korean brokerage. There is quite a bit of information on possible manufacturing methods and the planned capacity expansion.

http://www.oled-info.com/files/Displ...08_final_1.pdf

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post #2563 of 11258 Old 09-19-2011, 07:35 PM
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I seem to have missed this comment last time I visited.

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Originally Posted by slacker711 View Post

The resolution is 285ppi which is the highest yet on an OLED. It might mean that Samsung is using LITI.

Sony are using 2560 PPI OLED screens in their new SLR viewfinders. (white OLED with RGB color filters) The screens are 0.5" with a 1024x768 resolution.

The new HMZ-T1 OLED panels (also white OLED with RGB color filters) are 0.7" 1280x720, which is 2098 PPI.


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Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

Not sure if LED backlit can be considered as LED display just as OLED backlit can be considered as OLED display. LGD probably need 4 3.5G substrate to make one 55" but higher tolerance for backlight quality I would think.

If I am understanding your post correctly, you consider white OLED displays to be "OLED Backlit" ?

White OLED with RGB color filters actually eliminates a lot of the issues that RGB OLED has (such as uneven wear and response times) and should be easier to manufacture. They won't have as wide a gamut as RGB OLED, but should still cover Rec 709 without any problems.

They are still true OLED displays and not "OLED backlit" however, as each subpixel has its own white OLED pixel and there is not going to be any light bleeding between cells as you have with LED backlit displays where spreaders are required and they only have a fraction of zones compared to pixels. (e.g. 300 zones on a 2MP display with the new Elite LCDs)
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post #2564 of 11258 Old 09-19-2011, 08:42 PM
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^^ Correct, but I am not too sure if they can remove the TFT altogether and control each pixel independently due to the electric current issue we discussed many months back, on large screens. Nonetheless you can see the difference between the approach by Sammy and LG. As different as their approach in 3D

So now we know what LG mean when they say they will launch a 55" OLED TV next year. Like I said, the quality of OLED for "backlighting" should be less stringent than what Sammy is trying to do. But the positive should be that LG solution, like their 3D, should be cheaper.
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post #2565 of 11258 Old 09-19-2011, 09:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

The new manufacturing process of 8G plants and blue OLED half-life?

Thanks for responding. Seems correct as I've collected as many papers as I can and so far I would list the following in order of focus:

1 - Scale up manufacturing (focus on lighting)
2 - Coating technologies
3 - Materials (focus on phosphorescent for lighting)

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post #2566 of 11258 Old 09-19-2011, 09:27 PM
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What coating technology for OLED are you referring to?

See slacker's link on KIS report which is a good summary for idiot investors like me

There is a change in manufacturing tech for 8G, and different approach to OLED TV by LG and Sammy. As per what we discussed, there is an electric current issue for large size OLED so you may be able to shed some insight on that

Frankly I am skeptical that 8G capex for Oxide+FMM is KRW4tr as per the KIS report when 5.5G is already >KRW2.5tr IIRC.
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post #2567 of 11258 Old 09-19-2011, 11:40 PM
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Slacker's link is interesting, although it contains an unbelievable amount of sell-side analyst drivel. There is so much hand waving past real problems, that one can only real the report as having been heavily influenced by the very companies they are promoting.

And they continue to make insane claims about the cost of OLED vs. LCD that are borne out in no reality. They presume LCD is a stationary cost picture and OLED is some completed, learning-curve-based cost down the road that is significantly lower.

They also make the idiotic claim that TV is "10x bigger market by area than mobile". While that might be true (I'm not going to actually sit and math it out, I'll accept it), it's not remotely true on value.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #2568 of 11258 Old 09-20-2011, 12:43 AM
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^^ yes it's a good summary and source for newsflow but korean reports are not known to be mathematically sensible

With a new product like OLED, I tend to just focus on the technology.
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post #2569 of 11258 Old 09-20-2011, 02:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunidrem View Post

I understand that Sony is only putting out very small volumes of their OLED TVs, but I still find it odd that there is nothing about what fab they're using. For all the talk about Samsung's fabs, and all the talk about LG's grandiose talk about future fabs, Sony somehow seems to escape general notice.

In essence, above is a plea for minimal education. I'm sure that there's a bunch of stuff I'm missing in OLED, but this is a kind of big thing to be missing.

I'm not sure but I think Sony's panels are either manufactured by "Sony Mobile Display" (it has a G3.5 fab) or some labs.

Sony is dead.
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post #2570 of 11258 Old 09-20-2011, 04:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

They also make the idiotic claim that TV is "10x bigger market by area than mobile". While that might be true (I'm not going to actually sit and math it out, I'll accept it), it's not remotely true on value.

The total markets by value arent 10x but the television market does dwarf the mobile handset display market. It is probably in the area of $100 billion to $15 billion.

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post #2571 of 11258 Old 09-20-2011, 04:54 AM
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Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

^^ yes it's a good summary and source for newsflow but korean reports are not known to be mathematically sensible

Perhaps I should have caveated the post, brokerage reports as a whole tend to be drivel. You have to be able to pick and choose the information. I found the talk about the technology paths interesting as well the chart forecasting the near-term production capacity increases. Those are the kinds of things that a report can get right, but like you, I dont put much weight on their forecast of costs.

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post #2572 of 11258 Old 09-20-2011, 06:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

What coating technology for OLED are you referring to?

OVPD, high volume evaporation, hybrid (solution+evaporation), solution coating, ink-jet....etc

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Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

See slacker's link on KIS report which is a good summary for idiot investors like me

I'm looking more for research activity trends and that link seemed more about market/product trends. I'll take another look. I do like the comparison between oxide-TFT and LTPS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

There is a change in manufacturing tech for 8G, and different approach to OLED TV by LG and Sammy. As per what we discussed, there is an electric current issue for large size OLED so you may be able to shed some insight on that

Frankly I am skeptical that 8G capex for Oxide+FMM is KRW4tr as per the KIS report when 5.5G is already >KRW2.5tr IIRC.

LOL, you guys are light years ahead of me on this topic. That is why I asked

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post #2573 of 11258 Old 09-20-2011, 07:41 AM
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Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post


Frankly I am skeptical that 8G capex for Oxide+FMM is KRW4tr as per the KIS report when 5.5G is already >KRW2.5tr IIRC.

The big cost savings from Oxide-TFT is supposed to come from the fact that you would be able to reuse existing LCD equipment/lines. I tend to be skeptical of technologies that say they are just a simple "upgrade" from existing equipment. Those claims seem to rarely work out.

OTOH, they are supposed to solve the problems associated with large-area OLED's.

FWIW, an article on Oxide-TFT's.

http://displaydaily.com/2011/04/28/s...ground-shifts/

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post #2574 of 11258 Old 09-20-2011, 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by slacker711 View Post

The big cost savings from Oxide-TFT is supposed to come from the fact that you would be able to reuse existing LCD equipment/lines.

Yes that was the gist of KIS report. They are assuming a low capex migration from LCD to OLED, yet oxide-TFT OLED has never been produced, hence I remain skeptical of their capex numbers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by slacker711 View Post

FWIW, an article on Oxide-TFT's.

http://displaydaily.com/2011/04/28/s...ground-shifts/

Think I posted this few months back as I remembered it was discussed way back with the thread starter Isochroma on (again) electric current transmission. But I didn't know IGZO is the same as Oxide TFT :P
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post #2575 of 11258 Old 09-20-2011, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

Yes that was the gist of KIS report. They are assuming a low capex migration from LCD to OLED, yet oxide-TFT OLED has never been produced, hence I remain skeptical of their capex numbers.

http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english...100531/183076/
[SID] Sony Develops 11.7-inch Oxide Semiconductor TFT-driven OLED Panel

Just some extra information...

Sony is dead.
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post #2576 of 11258 Old 09-20-2011, 02:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slacker711 View Post

The total markets by value arent 10x but the television market does dwarf the mobile handset display market. It is probably in the area of $100 billion to $15 billion.

Well, the global TV market is very approximately 200 million units. The value of the panels is them certainly skews toward small and given that 32-inch panels are running around $135 right now, I'm going to take a seriously wild guess and say that TV panels overall sell for an average of not more than $350. It's not likely that high, but that puts the value of the TV panel market at $70 billion.

It's hard to get much clarity on the value of smartphone screens, but most iSuppli teardowns put them at $20-23 depending on the screen and generation. Given the moves by Apple (resolution) and Samsung (AMOLED), the cost/value of those has actually been rising in recent years. The expectations were for around 470 million smartphones to ship this year. Let's just use $20 and we get $9 billion.

Of course, there is also the tablet market and the laptop market, which the report somehow ignores as not important -- a very odd decision. Sort of like deciding to compares automobiles to only unicycles, not also bicycles. Anyway, figure 40 million tablets this year conservatively with $65 display cost on average. That's another $2.6 billion this year.

Needless to say, if we add laptops as potential users of OLED, we'd get another several billion. But just looking at phones and tablets and considering their growth potential from this year's nearly $12 billion, that should reach a $20 billion year possible market by 2015 easily. TV is likely to remain at $70 billion, possibly creeping upwards to $75-80 billion. Keep in mind that TV growth is almost entirely predicated on emerging markets and the low end otherwise it will stay flat or shrink.

None of this renders slacker's point invalid; I just refined his guesstimates into slightly better math. But it renders the claim of the report pretty stupid as the actual ratio is 6:1 or so and declining not the 10:1 they claim. And furthermore, the opportunities for OLED in mobile are actually real. In TV, they are entirely theoretical right now.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #2577 of 11258 Old 09-20-2011, 02:37 PM
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it's official, just like rogo and i predicted, no ipad 3 in 2011.







actually i never predicted that, just rogo

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post #2578 of 11258 Old 09-20-2011, 02:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

Yes that was the gist of KIS report. They are assuming a low capex migration from LCD to OLED, yet oxide-TFT OLED has never been produced, hence I remain skeptical of their capex numbers.



Think I posted this few months back as I remembered it was discussed way back with the thread starter Isochroma on (again) electric current transmission. But I didn't know IGZO is the same as Oxide TFT :P

The problem with analyst reports like that is, again, they use terminology they don't even understand. And then they abuse it.

IGZO has basically not been used in mass production. Yet a bunch of analysts in a white-collar office in Seoul have concluded it's going to be cheaper than all other TFT-LCD production used to date. Production which has 15 years of learning curve benefits behind it.

This kind of magic-bullet thinking is an embarrassment. It would be one thing if they describe all of this as possible. But instead, they more or less describe it as done.

Finally, there is something amazingly tantalizing in the article linked:

"Although oxide TFTs will certainly benefit very large LCD panels and LCD panels of any size with high pixel densities, they appear to be an essential enabling technology for AMOLED displays of medium (that is, tablet) and larger sizes. That means Sharp may not be the greatest beneficiary of its own technology, but that would be nothing new in the history of display development."

Sharp might not be pursuing OLED on its own. But then again, Sharp wasn't pursuing 10" tablet screens either. Then Apple came along. Now suddenly, Sharp is not only pursuing the latter, but also using it as a catalyst to make IGZO real.

Apple can't move to OLED unless there is someone else besides Samsung supplying a sufficient number of OLED panels (because they need two sources, not because of the legal wrangling). But Apple could invest whatever was needed into Sharp to get OLED production to happen. If, of course, it wanted such a thing.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #2579 of 11258 Old 09-20-2011, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by mr. wally View Post

it's official, just like rogo and i predicted, no ipad 3 in 2011.

actually i never predicted that, just rogo

FWIW I'm gunning for January announcement of ipad3. Bit ambitious (there's talks of VCM camera issue) but not impossible with TSMC sampling A6 as second source ramping 1Q.

Incidentally rumour of a low price iPhone been around past 6 months and looks high chance happening next 3 weeks. We just need to consider which rumour makes sense.
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post #2580 of 11258 Old 09-20-2011, 05:58 PM
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TSMC is the sole source of the A6. Samsung has been fired from chip making for Apple.

The iPad3 has almost no chance of being announced in January. I expect it around one year after iPad2.

And, yes, a cheap iPhone + the more expensive iPhone 5 seems all-but certain at this point.

The fascinating Apple 2012 variable actually is this: When will the LTE iPhone ship? Someone with insight on the Qualcomm lower-power baseband parts might help us out there. I recognize Samsung is doing thin 4G phones now, but I've seen and held one. First of all, they are in fact huge. Second of all, I doubt they'd meet Apple's battery-life requirements.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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