HDMI not allowing Closed Captioning? - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 201 Old 01-22-2012, 03:22 PM
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I think HDMI can support CC. If I'm correct, all you need to do is enable CC on your tv (that is if your tv can support it). I cannot test the CC over HDMI on mine because I have a pioneer kuro (not the elite model) and unfortunately they didn't bother to include CC feature. They've gotta be the only major tv manufacturer that didn't bother to include that feature for hearing disabled folks, I know other manufacturers pretty much have always included CC decoding in their televisions.

So as long as you can enable CC on your tv then your blu-ray player doesn't need to be able to display it.
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post #182 of 201 Old 01-23-2012, 07:59 AM
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Quote:


I think HDMI can support CC.

HDMI carries video and audo data.
In order to see CC over HDMI, the source must be able to overlay the decoded captions onto the video.
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post #183 of 201 Old 04-21-2012, 02:46 PM
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I wish people would do something to find the answer and not simply "think". That really distracts from the conversation. I thought so too, but I was wrong.

I bought the series, As Time Goes By, for my mother who needs CC. The disks have CC but not Subtitles like we used for the Golden Girls collection. When we tried to get the CC to work on her setup, old CRT tv with AV connection, no such luck. That sent me into experiment mode.

I tried several DVD players I have with my LCD flatscreens using PBS "As Time Goes By" DVDs which have CC but not subtitles. None would display CC over HDMI but would using AV cables (red/white/yellow). So if I need CC I have my DVD players on these TVs connected both with HDMI and AV and switch input to AV for CC. Subtitled DVDs play fine over HDMI.

As pointed out, my cable company converters do the CCing for cable shows, not the TV.

The DVD players I have are several years old, not Blue Ray. One is an up-converting unit.

As it turned out, the player on my mother's system was a cheap-o player that does not pass CC on thru its AV or supervideo connection (no HDMI on this one). Who would have thought!
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post #184 of 201 Old 04-23-2012, 10:12 AM
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Closed Captions = "hidden" coded signals for captions. These are desgined to specific standards that explain how to add these captions to the signals so that TVs can find and decode these captions.

In old analog video - 480i video - the caption information was hidden in a part of the signal called the Vertical Blanking Interval" (VBI). This is the black bar that used to roll up the screen when you need adjust the "vertical hold" and was used to sync the two fields of interlaced video from way back in 50's. The VBI is a part of the video information. The VBI is included analog broadcast and on composite video and S-video, so the closed captions are included.

Later analog video - component video in 480p, 720p, 1080i and 1080p do not require and so do not have VBI and thus have no place to "hide" the CC information. No standards for how to add "hidden" captions to these analog video signals has been created so TV manufactures cannot design decoder - you cannot decode something if there is no standard for encoding that something.

On digital broacasts, CC is hidden in a "side band" that is NOT a part of the video information. The digital receiver that decodes the compressed digial video can also find and decode the CC in the side band. Remember, all digital video from outside of your home will arrive to your home as "compressed" video and then needs to be de-compressed before it can be shown.

HDMI = non-compressed digital video - this is the video after it is de-compressed. There is no place in a non-compressed digital video signal to "hide" the CC information because there is no VBI and no Side Bands. The only way to send caption information over HDMI is as "Open Captions". This is why it is responsiblity of the equipment that de-compresses the digital video to also handle the Closed Captions.

The Television is required to handle the closed captions when received via the Antenna input because the TV is handling the decoding of the original signal as it arrives in the home. However, when the decoding of the orignal signal is handled outside of the TV, by your cable box or satellite reciever, it is that device that is resposible to decode the closed captions and send them to the TV as open captions. Televisions cannot be desgined to "decode" closed caption information if there is no standard or way to "encode" that informtion into the signal and for HDMI and Component Video for HD there are no standards for closed captions.

As for your DVDs and Blu-ray players, they are not required to decode closed captions, only pass them on IF THERE IS A STANDARD. The only standard is for composite and S-video where there is a VBI.

The Pioneer unit that does not have a Closed Caption decoder is not a TV it is a Monitor. It does not have a TV tuner to recieve signals directly from an antenna so it is not a TV. TVs are required to have Closed Caption decoders, Monitors are not required to have Closed Caption decoders.
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post #185 of 201 Old 04-23-2012, 03:35 PM
 
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As more players are put out without any sort of analog outputs, and analog inputs on TVs are phased out (as well as analog tuners, which would prompt the removal of analog closed-caption decoders as well), there needs to be a push to include internal CC decoders in playback equipment that can overlay them over the video. I hope in the future there will also be a CC decoder available for use with VCRs and other analog video formats- where their video inputs can be plugged in, output via HDMI and allow switching on and off of captions overlayed on the video.
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post #186 of 201 Old 12-17-2013, 11:00 PM
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Not that anybody gives a flying f**k at this point, but the 4.53 firmware for PS3 just added the ability to show Closed Captions. Yay SONY! It only took 7 (seven) years mad.gif
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post #187 of 201 Old 12-20-2013, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avs2099 View Post

Not that anybody gives a flying f**k at this point, but the 4.53 firmware for PS3 just added the ability to show Closed Captions. Yay SONY! It only took 7 (seven) years mad.gif

 

You exhumed this thread for THAT?  LOL...


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post #188 of 201 Old 05-15-2014, 04:48 PM
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Quote:Originally Posted by tgm1024 

You exhumed this thread for THAT?  LOL...

Quote:Originally Posted by avs2099 

Not that anybody gives a flying f**k at this point, but the 4.53 firmware for PS3 just added the ability to show Closed Captions. Yay SONY! It only took 7 (seven) years


Thanks for exhuming. I'm on a hunt for understanding on the elusive CC issue for my father in law, who is deaf and wants his CC's on every possible platform. I wondered why we had to use dinosaur cabling to achieve CC's the last few years, and now I am beginning to understand. The demise of RCA plugs on many devices heightens the problem for him. I'm wondering if Sony took that fix over to their non-PS3 disc playing platforms. That would be a godsend.

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Last edited by mogrub; 07-31-2014 at 08:30 AM.
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post #189 of 201 Old 05-15-2014, 09:33 PM
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Were closed captions not replaced with SDH subtitles years ago?
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post #190 of 201 Old 05-16-2014, 07:37 AM
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Two different animals. Many hearing impaired viewers prefer CC for a variety of reasons.

Every once in a while, quite inexplicably, things actually go according to plan.
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post #191 of 201 Old 05-18-2014, 01:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mogrub View Post

Two different animals. Many hearing impaired viewers prefer CC for a variety of reasons.
Confirmed. (I'm deaf myself)
For a long time, several DVDs had CC embedded (required decoder) but no subtitles.

On a related topic -- as streaming formats increasingly gets watched by a lot of people rather than physical media -- CC needs to be consistently standardized on all streaming formats (NetFlix, Amazon, iTunes, Vudu, etc) in all countries on all platforms, from tablets all the way to Roku/AppleTV/etc. Alas, streaming captioning was a big a big problem in Canada for many years, until about two years ago when Netflix suddenly started captioning almost everything in the Canadian streams, as well as Apple being consistent with captions on Canadian iTunes streams. But you still run into situations (say, 1 in 20 streams) that annoyingly has no captions.

Thanks,
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post #192 of 201 Old 05-18-2014, 01:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mogrub View Post

Thanks for exhuming. I'm on a hunt for understanding on the elusive CC issue for my father in law, who is stone cold deaf and wants his CC's on every possible platform. I wondered why we had to use dinosaur cabling to achieve CC's the last few years, and now I am beginning to understand. The demise of RCA plugs on many devices heightens the problem for him. I'm wondering if Sony took that fix over to their non-PS3 disc playing platforms. That would be a godsend.

Help him come into the 21st centry via the following:
1. Newer model HDTV Boxes
-- For many years now, most of them now enable captioning via their menus. Modern ones support turning on captions natively/internally. USA legislation requires that nowadays. His box may already have it (e.g. thanks to regular firmware upgrade deliveries), reconnecting the box via HDMI often enables a new menu option to turn on/off captions in one of the settings screens.
2. Digital OTA
-- It's my understanding that government regulations currently require all digital OTA decoding (whether built in to TV, or as external boxes) to have a closed caption feature
3. Carefully selected DVD/Blu-Ray player
-- The most spotty gotcha. Fortunately, sony Playstation 3 is very good new with the new 4.53+ firmware, with full access to all possible decodeable caption / subtitle tracks on DVD, Blu-Ray, Netflix. I think PlayStation 4 follows suit too.
4. Modern streaming players
-- AppleTV and Roku has captioning on most streams on most services, or just use the PlayStation 3 as your Netflix/streaming player.

After a long torturous road, I can safely say analog cables are no longer needed now. Your father-in-law should be able to enjoy full captioning accessibility now without analog cables.

Thanks,
Mark Rejhon


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post #193 of 201 Old 05-18-2014, 01:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Rejhon View Post

Help him come into the 21st century ... After a long torturous road, I can safely say analog cables are no longer needed now. Your father-in-law should be able to enjoy full captioning accessibility now without analog cables.

Thanks Mark. My research identified that a recent Sony firmware upgrade has enabled Netflix CC's on virtually all of their more recent BluRay players via HDMI. I picked one up, installed it a couple of days ago, and he is now streaming Netflix movies with CC's and is doing well with it.

The added complication with Pop is that he is in his mid 80's and doesn't do well with technology -- not even well-labeled buttons on remote controls. So finding something that works for him involves not just something that can possibly work, but also, has an extremely simple user interface.

Mission accomplished on this for now. Thanks again for the help.

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post #194 of 201 Old 05-18-2014, 02:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mogrub View Post

Two different animals. Many hearing impaired viewers prefer CC for a variety of reasons.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Rejhon View Post

Confirmed. (I'm deaf myself)

Sorry for making that assumption. Could you explain what the difference is between Closed Captions and SDH Subtitles?
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post #195 of 201 Old 05-18-2014, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

Sorry for making that assumption. Could you explain what the difference is between Closed Captions and SDH Subtitles?

Sometimes they are identical text, but:

- Closed captions are externally decoded while subtitles are internally decoded. Nowadays, both are necessarily internally decoded in the digital era.
- Closed captions always are black background with white, at a scientifically-standardized font size that allows enough space for complete transcription. (The black box caption look came out roughly around 1977, after much trials and experiments on look, size, readability, bandwidth, accessibility, and the same relative text size versus screen size is still used almost 30 years later. My family got our first huge settop caption decoder box in 1982, long before caption decoding got miniaturized into chips built into TVs).
- SDH are subtitles with the same caption text. Unfortunately, subtitles are sometimes of a font color that is harder to read (outlined text is harder for a lot of people, especially dyslexics, than solid background). Also, sometimes deafies can also have vision issues, so the standard high contrast white-on-black captions help a lot here. Also, for some colorblind, colored outlines (e.g. Dark yellow outlines around light yellow text) can make outlined text even harder to read.
- Movie content is so busy you want the fastest possible caption speed reading, so you can pay attention to the movies. Closed captions are easy to speed read. Mute your movie and try watching a brand new fast action movie (you have never watched before) that is also talkative with a complex plot (massive non-condensed text output). Your attention will be pushed to its limits, absorbing the movie AND the captions. You audiophiles get distracted by audio imperfections, we get distracted by reading bottlenecks/discomfort, buddy... 10% reading speed differences hit us really damn hard sometimes.
- Sometimes SDH on some discs still condenses text somewhat due to the larger subtitle fonts used (despite them being harder to read for some due to outlining or poor color contrast interfering with readability)
- Kudos to studios that do great readable and non-condensed subtitles, in proper vision-friendly colors (occasionally superior to closed captions,) but not all of them, totally abysmal compared to the closed caption track on the same disc. It's as maddening as having a DVD with both Mono audio and DTS-ES audio, but you don't have a DTS-compatible receiver. No DTS for you buddy. Imagine the caption text being abysmal and condensed/derezzed (no "[phone rings in background]" or "[footsteps]" to heighten your suspense) in a "Hobbitt book converted into a 20 page cartoon format" style (sentences reworded shorter than the audio). Fortunately, this problem happens less often with high def "SDH" subtitles, though the readability test still flunks occassionally. Still doesn't help existing DVD collections, considering the lower average budget some parts of the deaf community can have (DVD remains more popular than BluRay even to today). Descriptive SDH did not exist on most DVDs. But at least with, with closed captions, it is predictable like a Pepsi or a McDonalds Golden Fries: no disappointment at the technical readability of onscreen text, AND sometimes surprisingly more detailed than the words put in the subtitle track.

Any more questions? wink.gif
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post #196 of 201 Old 05-18-2014, 03:59 PM
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Ah I see. I am not hard of hearing but occasionally have to use subtitles, and some of the discs I have only have SDH or Closed-Captions. (as a PGS subtitle stream)
I had never noticed a difference in reading speed or content between SDH subtitles or CC, and found the black borders to be intrusive.

With certain renderers on a HTPC, I believe you can choose to add a black border to any subtitles if that's what you prefer.

I have to say, this makes me wonder if conversions like DVD to MKV via MakeMKV is stripping out the closed captions stream, or if it's contained in the video itself.
It also makes me wonder if a lot of the US DVDs I have which lack any kind of subtitles assumed that anyone needing them would have a closed-caption decoder hooked up.

Anyway, thanks for the reply.
It seems to me like closed captions which require a specific decoder should have disappeared when the DVD format was introduced, and the discs should simply have included a subtitle stream formatted as closed-captions. (i.e. white text on a solid black background)
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post #197 of 201 Old 05-18-2014, 04:22 PM
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The problem happened more with DVD, not BluRay. The subtitle readability is far better on Blu-Rays. But the DVD situation was a big problem for some of us, especially as text condensing happened far more often.
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post #198 of 201 Old 05-18-2014, 08:03 PM
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Technically, I believe CC offers a few things that really aren't doable at all with SDH subs, although they are corner cases for sure. Because CC is decoded at the display (historically), the display could change the appearance based on user preferences (i.e. color change, size change, etc). While you could technically recolor or scale an SDH image, CC is nicer because you can wrap the text to avoid cutting it off at large sizes, for example. Not that this is very common at all, as far as I've been able to tell. As mentioned earlier, the increased quality of subs in HD material probably makes this a useful feature to even fewer people than it was before. But still, CC was damned useful, and its replacement path should have been better planned out and understood by everyone before it got the axe.
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post #199 of 201 Old 07-30-2014, 04:41 PM
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My wife and I have recently inherited Pioneer Kuro PRO-111FD Elite along with a Pioneer Blu-ray disk player (BDP-51 FD).

We rented a DVD from Netflix which has closed captions. If we play the disk on our Windows 7 computer we can get to the "DVD menu" which allows us to turn on the closed captions. So we could watch the disk on the computer if we had to.

However, if we play the disk in the Pioneer-Blu ray player we’re unable to get to the “DVD menu” and thus we’re unable to turn on CC.

Other disks from Netflix have CC on/off in their setup menu and we are able to utilize CC on those disks.

Does anyone have any suggestions as to how it might be possible to get to this DVD menu that is giving us fits? We’ve read the manuals and punched about every button possible. Luckily we haven’t begun punching each other out of frustration.

TIA

Last edited by I'mMe; 07-30-2014 at 04:46 PM.
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post #200 of 201 Old 07-31-2014, 07:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I'mMe View Post
... We rented a DVD from Netflix which has closed captions. If we play the disk on our Windows 7 computer we can get to the "DVD menu" which allows us to turn on the closed captions ... However, if we play the disk in the Pioneer-Blu ray player we’re unable to get to the “DVD menu” and thus we’re unable to turn on CC.
It sounds like you're unable to access any options, not just the captions. Is that the case -- none of the menu options for different audio, different chapter selections, bonus features and so forth, none of that is available to you on the Pioneer?

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post #201 of 201 Old 07-31-2014, 08:47 AM
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I'mMe, you used the term closed caption in your post, which is not the same thing as SDH subtitles. There are several posts that walk through the significant distinction between CC and SDH down below. See post numbers 184 from GEP and 195 from Mark Rejhon in particular.

Based on what you have said, I assume (1) you are trying to access the SDH subtitles via the disc menu, and not trying to access CC information, and (2) you can't find any disc menu options on your Pioneer BluRay player, but all of them -- chapter selections, special features, audio options, subtitles -- all of those are available if you put the disc into your computer?

When you say that "We’ve read the manuals and punched about every button possible", that must mean that you have tried both the "Popup Menu" and "Subtitle" buttons on the remote?

Do you have another non-computer disc player you can use, to see if the menu behavior is different there?

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Last edited by mogrub; 08-01-2014 at 07:27 AM.
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