HDMI not allowing Closed Captioning? - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
Old 07-16-2006, 09:38 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Blesum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 21
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Hi everybody - I'm a deaf individual and rely heavily on close captioning.

I'm starting to wonder if using HDMI somehow disables the close captioning feature.

A bunch of us could not get the Pansonic 50u to display captioning with movies in a chain store so I didn't get it. I don't know that unit was hooked up and didn't think it mattered.

I ended up picking up two LCD's to compare side by side at home - A 37" Sharp Aquos (LC40C37U) and a 42" Sceptre (X42GV-NAGA). I've been using the 37" Aquos for the past week with my older Sony DVD player and regular analog TV with no captioning issues.

The Sceptre recently arrived and I went off to pick up two Sony HDMI dvd players (DVP-NS71HP) today so I could directly compare both displays side by side.

I hooked up the Aquos via HDMI, popped in a LOTR movie and... NO CAPTIONS! I tried a few other discs as well - nada. Captions show up fine when I switch the TV over to my old Sony dvd player at 480p hooked up via compoent inputs.

Right now I'm in the process of hooking up the new 42" Sceptre but I have a sinking feeling that I'm going to run into the same problem.

What's going on, and what can I do?

-Blesum
Blesum is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 07-16-2006, 09:48 PM
Senior Member
 
falser's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 362
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Be aware you're probably more experienced in this area than most people here. I thought CC is generally for only broadcast systems -- don't you use subtitles in DVD's? CC information is encoded into the video of broadcast television, I'm not sure if this is the same on DVD's, but I guess it is if it's what you were using before. It is very possible that an upconverting player will lose this information when it upconverts a 480i signal into 1080i/720p. Did you try the new dvd player without upconverting enabled?
falser is offline  
Old 07-16-2006, 09:49 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Blesum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 21
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Sure enough - the Sceptre displayed captions while watching analog TV, but when we played a dvd via HDMI - No more captions... I'm starting to think that this is not going to be a step forward for me, but a step backwards that I don't want to take.

-Blesum
Blesum is offline  
Old 07-16-2006, 09:55 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Blesum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 21
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Thanks for chiming in Falser - I'll root through the manuals some and see about disabling the upconverting. Wouldn't that hurt the quality some and defeat the purpose of my getting these displays/dvd players though?

Captions are typically encoded into regular (mainstream popular movies) - Subtitles generally suck compared to closed captions - for example in an action movie using subtitles, I'll be wondering why everybody is diving to the ground (shots being fired offscreen), why people are reacting (screams somewhere, door opening or closing, clock ticking, phone ringing, explosions in the distance, etc). That's why I sneer at subtitles and go for captions every time out. Captions relay that kind of vital information to me. Once in a while, a movie will not have captions but say "Subtitles for the Hearing Imparied" - that means the subtitles also include this vital information but it's not common.

-Blesum
Blesum is offline  
Old 07-16-2006, 10:02 PM
Senior Member
 
falser's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 362
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Ah, I gotcha. I pointed out the upconverting, because I think I remember that CC data is encoded into a certain unused area of interlaced video -- meaning it may only be available when watching an interlaced signal, or a DVD player that properly handles the conversion from 480i to 480p. The FCC laws regarding CC are much more strict for broadcast signals, whereas for DVD players, and definitely for ones that do upconverting and so on, may not be manditory and not handle this stuff well.
falser is offline  
Old 07-16-2006, 10:18 PM
adb
AVS Special Member
 
adb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: central texas
Posts: 2,640
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Blesum

Much of the time the receiver determines if the closed caption will be readable. For example the Sony HD 200 does CC on SD very well while in HD it garbles CBS and NBC and correctly shows ABC and Fox. Not much can be done about this.
adb is offline  
Old 07-16-2006, 11:37 PM
AVS Special Member
 
necrolop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,323
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I cant say I know detaisl of CC, but you could try to use a player that outputs 480i over HDMI. Maybe that way the video is undisturbed so CC information can get to the TV, while at the same time the signal stays digital. You can rely on the internal scaler of the TV, it shouldnt be too far behind the scaler in the DVD player. This is just a geuss though.

CROPPED < OAR < OPEN MATTE -- OOOOH I SAID IT!
necrolop is offline  
Old 07-17-2006, 08:38 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Blesum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 21
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by necrolop View Post

I cant say I know detaisl of CC, but you could try to use a player that outputs 480i over HDMI. Maybe that way the video is undisturbed so CC information can get to the TV, while at the same time the signal stays digital. You can rely on the internal scaler of the TV, it shouldnt be too far behind the scaler in the DVD player. This is just a geuss though.


If I used a player that outputs 480i over HDMI, doesn't it stand to reason that I would no longer be viewing 720p/1080i on the display, and down the line, not be able to view 1080p, defeating the whole point of getting these cutting edge LCD's?

Wouldn't I be better off returning everything and buying a older non-HDMI TV?

Or does the monitor somehow take the 480i signal and converts it back to 1080i?

Today I'm going to see what happens with the captioning when the players are hooked up via compoent cables.

-Blesum
Blesum is offline  
Old 07-17-2006, 09:28 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Mike53's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 1,620
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Does the manual say anything about how to use close captioning? I tend to think there is a way that you are not considering. Most TV's (all Sharp's and I'm sure others as well) allow you to select where the audio goes. It's selectable at the source (STB or DVR) and it's selectable at the display. If you run the audio via RCA output instead of through HDMI, I'll bet it would work.

I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Mike53 is offline  
Old 07-17-2006, 10:12 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Blesum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 21
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Mike,

The Sceptre manual is very lacking in captioning information and troubleshooting or different ways to hook things up for captioning is not discussed anywhere in it. The Sony DVD player manual says nothing on this subject. The Sharp manual is more detailed, but only addresses how to use it with watching regular TV and VHS tapes.

I hooked up the compoent to the Sceptre where it then displayed 480p and still no captions. I then hooked it up to the Aquos where it also displayed 480p and still no captions.

I then rehooked my old sony DVD player to the Aquos like it has been all week. 480i and captions worked. I then hooked that up to the Sceptre and there's no captioning.

Fustrating.

-Blesum
Blesum is offline  
Old 07-17-2006, 10:45 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Blesum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 21
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Found the DVD output options. Only three available - 1080i, 720p, 480p. Tried all of them on the Aquos and NO captioning got through.

I'm 95% sure I will be returning the 1080p Sceptre and 70% sure I will be returning the720p Aquos.

Probably look for a old, cheap Sony XBR, use it at 480i and write off the whole future HDDVD/BluRay/LCD/Plasma thing until they all sort themselves out.

Will check this thread throughout the day for any other possible solutions before starting to pack things up to be returned.

-Blesum
Blesum is offline  
Old 07-17-2006, 11:02 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Vashti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 1,206
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Blesum, why did they start offering CC? I had thought it had been legally mandated (maybe by the ADA?) If so, then wouldn't the manufacturers have a legal responsibility to make CC available? Have you tried contacting Scepter and Sharp Customer Service to see if they can help?
Vashti is offline  
Old 07-17-2006, 11:17 AM
Senior Member
 
falser's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 362
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Since using the Aquos and your old dvd player at 480i worked, that's what I'd keep. You'd be missing out on the fancy HDMI cables, but in reality I bet the TV's internal scaler does a pretty good job in scaling up the images. I doubt there is that much improvement when using the HDMI dvd player. And this way you're set up for an HDDVD or BluRay player down the road (hopefully they have CC worked out a little better).
falser is offline  
Old 07-17-2006, 12:13 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Blesum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 21
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vashti View Post

Blesum, why did they start offering CC? I had thought it had been legally mandated (maybe by the ADA?) If so, then wouldn't the manufacturers have a legal responsibility to make CC available? Have you tried contacting Scepter and Sharp Customer Service to see if they can help?

Going from memory here... CC is required by law on all 27 inch or bigger TVs made after 1992. From what I understand, these plasmas/LCD's are techincally TVs so they are not required to have CC. However, both of these models have it for watching regular TV which is nice.

I'll try calling up Sharp and/or Sceptre but corporations usually have an automated system that requires navigating through before getting to an actual customer rep - very difficult to do when you have to do it through a painfully slow relaying service (remember I'm deaf) - At the end of each menu option on the phone, they hang up, type out what was said, ask if I want to select any of the options, I tell them I want... for example number 3. They redial, go through the whole process again, press 3, then they get another menu to choose from... On and on... Good thing I have the day off from work today.

-Blesum
Blesum is offline  
Old 07-17-2006, 12:21 PM
Member
 
godfreyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 48
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I have a Sharp 45" Aquos and have not been able to get CC working with HDMI. It is very annoying.
godfreyb is offline  
Old 07-17-2006, 12:49 PM
AVS Special Member
 
sfhub's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 9,527
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blesum View Post

Going from memory here... CC is required by law on all 27 inch or bigger TVs made after 1992. From what I understand, these plasmas/LCD's are techincally TVs so they are not required to have CC. However, both of these models have it for watching regular TV which is nice.

I'll try calling up Sharp and/or Sceptre but corporations usually have an automated system that requires navigating through before getting to an actual customer rep - very difficult to do when you have to do it through a painfully slow relaying service (remember I'm deaf) - At the end of each menu option on the phone, they hang up, type out what was said, ask if I want to select any of the options, I tell them I want... for example number 3. They redial, go through the whole process again, press 3, then they get another menu to choose from... On and on... Good thing I have the day off from work today.

AFAIK there is no standard to transmit CC information over 720p/1080i interconnects and that is why you are not seeing CC information.

The CC transmission AFAIK is just for NTSC compatible signals and is sent over line21 VBI vertical blanking interval. The equivalent for this doesn't exist for 720p/1080i interconnects.

By interconnect I mean the connection between your source (DVD player, HD tuner, STB, etc.) and your display. Interconnects are normally component or HDMI/DVI.

The solution for this for was to encode the CC information into the mpg stream itself but this has the side effect that only the device that decodes the mpg (in your case the DVD player or HD tuner) has access to the CC information. Once the mpg is decoded and then needs to be transmitted to the display using component or HDMI/DVI there is no way to transmit it (ie there is no standard for the CC transmission over component/HDMI/DVI) Thus if there is CC information the source device needs to overlay that CC info on the picture prior to transmitting to the display over the interconnect.

In the case of the upconverting DVD player, if the CC information exists, the DVD player will need to be responsible for overlaying the CC info if you want to set the output of the player to 720p/1080i.

If your TV has a builtin ATSC/QAM tuner, then it is the one doing the decoding of the mpg so it will have access to the CC info and should have the ability to display in that case.

In short, I don't think there is anything broken with your displays, they are functioning as designed. I can see how it would be inconvenient and hard to understand. There are so many moving parts with AV these days it takes a rocket scientist to understand why things don't work as expected.
sfhub is offline  
Old 07-17-2006, 12:56 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Blesum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 21
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Godfreyb, I've got some bad news for ya... Yer screwed as well.

Both displays are going back.

Sceptre's customer service led to an answering machine saying to leave a number for them to call ya back at.

Sharp's was a bit better. Took only 10 minutes to get to a live person.

Here's what the rep said:

u are not going to be able to get the close captioning at 720p ga

Basically, I'm (we're) SOL.

When I pressed for more information:

just one moment pls i m gonna put u on hd thk u
(HOLDING) (hd) (hd) (hd) (hd) (hd) (hd) (hd) (hd)
(hd) (hd) (hd)thk u for holding i m sorry about the
delay the only info regarding the close caption and
the 480 i signal for this television that i have is that
that s what it will display it doesn t do 720p or 1080i ga


Wait, are you saying that this TV won't display
720p or that it won't display captions at 720p q ga

it won t display captions at 720p from a dvd player
the only u can t upgrade the signal it s only going to
display the signal that is receiving from the dvd
player it won t upconvert it ga


why not, and how is sharp going to address this
shortcoming in the future q ga

i have no idea how sharp is planning on adjusting it
and the television is not made to upconvert ga

what do you suggest I do q ga

if you
re able to view it in the 480i format that s really the
only option that u have right now ga

even though I spent over two grand to have 720p
quality q ga

the tv won t display it from a dvd like that i m sorry it
s going to be an inconvenience for u but the tv won t
do what you re wanting it to do
i m sorry that that s we can t accommodate what
you re wanting the application that u want to have ga



I talked some more and asked if somebody at Sharp could contact me if they ever made a TV/DVD player set up that would allow for captions to come across. She instead suggested that I call back periodcally and check with them. I don't think I'm going to bother, but if anybody wants to pose as me, it'll go faster with my customer number - 3 1 3 4 5 1 5 so they can pull up the file about this and understand what you're trying to find out/ask.

Good riddance, future. Back to the stone age I go.

-Blesum
Blesum is offline  
Old 07-17-2006, 01:04 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Blesum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 21
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Dear Rocket Scientist (Sfhub),

The Sceptre box has a ATSC port (screw-in, like with cable) in the back, so I assume it has this tuner. How do I get this TV to display 720p with captions from a DVD player? You make it sound like it's possible. Or is it just hopeless?

-Blesum
Blesum is offline  
Old 07-17-2006, 01:18 PM
AVS Special Member
 
sfhub's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 9,527
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blesum View Post

Dear Rocket Scientist (Sfhub),

The Sceptre box has a ATSC port (screw-in, like with cable) in the back, so I assume it has this tuner. How do I get this TV to display 720p with captions from a DVD player? You make it sound like it's possible. Or is it just hopeless?

I probably could have been clearer then. I didn't intend to give the impression you could get your DVD player to output over the ATSC port and get CC in that way.

When I said ATSC/QAM tuner, I mean if your TV is tuning in OTA HDTV using ATSC tuner or if it was tuning in HD channels from your cable company using the QAM tuner, then your TV is the one decoding the mpg and thus has access to the CC info and can display it.

In the case of your DVD player, the DVD player decodes the mpg and at that point has access to the CC info (if present). If the DVD player does not do something with the CC info (as in overlay it on the picture it sends out) then the CC info is lost (assuming 720p/1080i output from the DVD player) because there is no way (as in no standard) to transmit that info to the TV so that it can display the CC info.

Basically I'm saying investigate whether the upconverting DVD player has the ability to display the CC info in the picture it sends out and if not complain to them. Any TV you buy will have the same problem of not being able to display CC info for 720p/1080i signals it receives over the component or HDMI input ports.
sfhub is offline  
Old 07-17-2006, 01:24 PM
AVS Special Member
 
necrolop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,323
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Ok, I tested on my setup. Like he said Deinterlacing destroys the CC information. So far the best way seems to be outputting 480i from the DVD player to the LCD over Component, this works fine on my setup. This shouldnt be toob bad, you have an added conversion but the scaling should be okay. I cant test HDMI, but I am somewhat convinced that if you send 480i over HDMI that you will be able to keep the CC info, wether the TV sees it or not is up in the air, but could be worth a try. Or maybe someone in the forum with a player that has 480i over HDMI would be so kind as to test for you.

CROPPED < OAR < OPEN MATTE -- OOOOH I SAID IT!
necrolop is offline  
Old 07-17-2006, 01:28 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Blesum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 21
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Makes more sense to me. Thanks for dumbing it down for me.

Now I'm gonna call Sony...
Blesum is offline  
Old 07-17-2006, 01:31 PM
Advanced Member
 
ZZen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 681
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I remember that my previous Toshiba HDTV did display captions over the component inputs coming from an HD Set top box. It did this from SD channels and I think HD channels were hit and miss (sometimes garbled if at all). My current Dell HDTV (POS) doesn't show captions over the component inputs the when getting the same signal that the Toshiba did.

Another option at least for TV viewing over component or HDMI is setting the set top box to display captions. That way it overlays them onto the signal and will come through no matter what connection you use. This won't help for DVD's though. Hope you get something sorted out.
ZZen is offline  
Old 07-17-2006, 01:39 PM
AVS Special Member
 
necrolop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,323
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
There must be a DVD player that is able to put the captions on the video itself, without using the TV to do it. Seems odd to me. I know panasonics wont but maybe some others?

CROPPED < OAR < OPEN MATTE -- OOOOH I SAID IT!
necrolop is offline  
Old 07-17-2006, 01:49 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Blesum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 21
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Thanks Zzen and Necrolop. It's hopeless. Just finsihed up with Sony... Basically they said the DVD player didn't support captions and that they'd forward my complaint to the "concerned" department.



Paul > Hi Sagel... Let's see... I'm deaf so I rely heavily on captions I picked up a couple of high end LCD tvs recently and two of your HDMI dvd players and I cannot get captions to show up at all.

Paul > after discussing it at avs forums, it was concluded that with anything beyond 480i signals it is the DVD player that has to be the one to make sure the CC signal makes it to the TV and this doesn't seem to be happening with your dvd player

Paul > my old sony dvd player (480i) does it fine

Paul > what do I do?

Sagel_ > Does the DVD disc have the closed caption?

Paul > Yes it does. I also tried a number of other discs that were also captioned

Paul > My old sony dvd player works fine and is able to get CC to display on the TV with these discs at 480i

Sagel_ > Please let me know the model # of the TV.

Paul > that would be the sharp aquos 37 inch lcd... lc-40c37u ga and also the sceptre uh 42 inch....

Paul > x42gv-naga

Sagel_ > I'm sorry Paul, the DVD player does not have the closed caption feature.

Paul > I know

Sagel_ > You will not be able to view the closed caption.

Paul > obviously

Paul > that's why I'm talking with you guys

Paul > I need for Sony to start making sure that future DVD players will be able to send the CC information to the TV

Paul > like the old ones did

Paul > this is the problem here

Sagel_ > I'll forward this feedback to the concerned department.

Sagel_ > Customer input and response is invaluable in the continued support and development of our products.

Paul > please include this link: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...=1#post8022316

Paul > Can somebody from sony let me know what Sony decided to do about this

Paul > I will have to return both TVs and both of your DVD players back to the store because of this

Paul > and I'm not happy about this

Sagel_ > I'm sorry for the inconvenience.

Paul > So will somebody from Sony contact me?

Sagel_ > I suggest that you contact our Video hotline support team at 1-800-222-7669 for further assistance.

Sagel_ > Their hours of operation are: Mon-Fri 9:00AM-10:00PM / Sat-Sun 10:30AM-7:15PM EST.



Around and around we go... Wheeeee.

-Blesum -- Well, now that you guys know my real name, I might as well sign off as Paul instead.

-Paul
Blesum is offline  
Old 07-17-2006, 10:12 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Vashti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 1,206
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Hey Paul, take a look at this thread, posts #34 - 36:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...=696821&page=2
Vashti is offline  
Old 07-17-2006, 11:11 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Blesum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 21
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Thanks Vashti!

I posted in that thread trying to get confirmation that it really is captioning and not subtitles (people sometimes think they're the same thing), and asked how it was turned on with these dvd players.

Good thing I didn't return everything tonight after all.

-Paul
Blesum is offline  
Old 07-18-2006, 01:06 AM
AVS Special Member
 
sfhub's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 9,527
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blesum View Post

Thanks Vashti!

I posted in that thread trying to get confirmation that it really is captioning and not subtitles (people sometimes think they're the same thing), and asked how it was turned on with these dvd players.

Good thing I didn't return everything tonight after all.

UPDATE: there now appears to be an upconverting Panasonic DMR-EZ47VK DVD player/recorder/VHS combo which has built-in CC decoder so it can decode line21 VBI CC and overlay on the video prior to sending over component or HDMI. See this post for more info:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post12690647

Well, I have the Oppo 970HD (the model referenced in that thread was the 971H)and I see no options to display CC. There is an option to display subtitle of course. It could be I'm just not looking hard enough.

Anyway, here is the manual for the 971H and I couldn't find any reference to CC or caption.
http://www.oppodigital.com/Download/...ser_Manual.pdf

Here is the manual for the 970HD and also I couldn't find any reference to CC or caption.
http://www.oppodigital.com/dv970hd/dv970hd_manual.pdf

Here is HD-A1, also no reference to CC or caption.
http://tacp.toshiba.com/tacpassets-i...hd-a1_om_e.pdf

BTW I think you are right in that most people think subtitles are the same as CC information. For the longest time I thought the same thing until someone pointed it out to me.

I think CC is just something that fell through the cracks. I don't think any DVD players have ever decoded CC information on line 21 VBI, as they expected all TVs would be able to decode line 21 VBI because it was mandated. In fact all TVs sold after the mandated date do decode CC on line 21 VBI.

However when we started moving to HD material, the line 21 VBI was no longer present on the HD 720p/1080i signals so the TVs were no longer getting the CC information. There was an attempt to solve this by encoding the CC information into the mpg stream and this partially resolves the situation for HD material but only if the device decoding the HD source material is able to read the CC and overlay it onto the picture.

However where CC fell through the cracks is with upconverting DVD players. These DVD players were never capable of reading the line 21 VBI CC information because they depended on the TV to decode it. This was fine when DVD players were sending 480i to the TV because line 21 VBR was passed.

The problem is when these players were converted to be upconverting players, they moved to component and HDMI/DVI interfaces and 720p/1080i over these interfaces did not have any equivalent of line 21 VBI so the CC information was just lost. It isn't being sent to the TV and even if the player wanted to, there would be no way (as in no standard) for the information to be transmitted over component/HDMI/DVI at 720p/1080i. This coupled with the fact that CC decoding has never traditionally been a function of the DVD player effectively means there is no way to display CC information.

From a design standpoint, since there is no way (as in no standard) to transmit the CC info over component/HDMI/DVI for 720p/1080i, it is impossible for a TV to decode CC for you, it never receives the info so it can never decode it.

The only way you are ever going to get the CC decoded and displayed on an upconverting DVD player connected to your TV using component/HDMI/DVI at 720p/1080i is if the DVD player is redesigned to decode CC and overlay it onto the output prior to sending it to the TV.

From a practical perspective, I don't see this is something you'd be able to convince the big conglomerates to do arguing as individuals. You'd most likely have to band together or create some noise to effect change. I don't really follow this stuff closely so I do not even know if it would be required for any manufacturer to support such decoding of CC. The requirement as far as I know was for the TVs to decode CC info on line 21 VBI, which they are all doing. The TVs cannot help they are not receiving any line 21 VBI info when you choose to upconvert your DVDs to 720p/1080i and use the component/HDMI/DVI interfaces.

The first counterargument would of course be that you could just use subtitles instead of CC. By doing so they would convert the issue into "quality" of subtitles vs CC which IMO weakens your argument that CC should work, at least in terms of public perception. You'd have a stronger argument if neither CC nor subtitled worked and as a hearing impaired person this is denying you ability to enjoy content.

The second counterargument would be you could just continue using your current 480i DVD player and not go with a fancy upconverting player.

----

Now the following is a separate test, unrelated to the upconverting DVD discussion above.

To test out my assertion that for HD material, the CC information is encoded in the mpg stream and the TV is able to decode CC for HD material that is received using the internal HDTV (QAM/ATSC) tuner I performed an experiment.

I have a Sharp Aquos LC-45GX6U HDTV. I tuned to local 1080i PBS channel (using cable TV and Sharp's QAM tuner) which I knew was transmitting CC encoded into the mpg stream. I enabled CC on the display. Sure enough the Close Caption information showed up on my display. I then switched to OTA (over-the-air) antenna and performed the same experiment using the ATSC tuner. Once again CC info was displayed.

So basically the Sharp LCD TV does in fact decode CC properly for HD signals when the information is made available to the TV. Obviously if the CC information is not made available to the TV, it will be impossible for it to decode and since there is no way (as in no standard) to transmit CC information over component/HDMI/DVI with 720p/1080i, with current infrastructure, it will never be able to receive CC info over those interconnects.

I also verified that my Motorola DCT-5100 cable Set Top Box has the ability to decode CC information located on the mpg stream and overlay onto the picture prior to sending to my Sharp display. It is located on a special setup menu where I can enable CC. It isn't on the standard config menu and it cannot be turned on using a button on the remote. I need to turn the unit off and go into the special setup menu.

So the bottom line is for HD material and for upconverted DVDs, the only device which can possibly decode CC and display it is the device which decodes the mpg stream. After the picture passes over component/HDMI/DVI the CC information is lost and cannot be recovered.

This is the way it will work for all TVs, so if you are returning the TVs because you think another TV will behave differently, don't bother, they will all behave this way. If however, you are returning the TV and are giving up on HD because the current situation is not acceptable, then that is a reasonable reason to return everything.

Your old Sony DVD player happens to "work" with CC not because the DVD is superior, but because it is connecting to your TV at 480i which has line 21 VBI information, thus CC is being passed to the TV so the TVs CC decoder can do its job. If you asked the Sony DVD player to decode CC internally and overlay onto the picture it won't be able to do that.

You could of course configure your upconverting DVD player to use 480i and then the CC information should pass to the TV and the TV should be able to decode it, but then what would be the point of getting your "upconverting" DVD player.
sfhub is offline  
Old 07-18-2006, 02:19 AM
Newbie
 
parki's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 2
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
A solution is to use a computer with DVI/HDMI output. Many software DVD players support closed captioning. Depending on the software & hardware involved, you may get OK to excellent picture quality out of this.
parki is offline  
Old 07-18-2006, 04:04 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Blesum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 21
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Again, another amazing post, Sfhub. Thank you. No point in me having these high end TVs and DVD players then. I'll look for a replacement (and much cheaper) 480i TV and use my "old" 480i dvd player until something gets sorted out down the road, if ever.

Parki, I've used a few DVD playing softwares on my laptop - the ones I've used merely turn on subtitles and not CC. But that's an idea for down the road if nothing ever gets sorted out by the big companies.

-Paul
Blesum is offline  
Old 11-25-2006, 10:28 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Blesum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 21
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Update: I am still trying to achieve 720p display with working captions. I recently called up Sony again and spoke with them about it. Their customer service rep said that there is indeed a Sony DVD player that will transmit the CC info over it's HDMI connection. The model is "DVP-NS90V".

I personally don't think they know what they're talking about but I hope they're right. I can't seem to find one to buy in any of the local BM retailers and I won't order it online because there's a 95% chance I will need to return it when I find that the close captioning still doesn't work...

Sucks. Off to try to find somebody with one and ask them if they can check...

-Blesum
Blesum is offline  
 
Thread Tools


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off