Official SED NEWS & Technology Thread Part 2! - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 1655 Old 10-23-2006, 08:55 AM
 
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Originally Posted by greenland View Post

I need you to provide proof that this is always the case. How about you try and prove it this way: Wait a mere 100 days before you eat or drink anything at all, and see if at the end of the 100 days what comes to you turns out to be a good thing. A very Godot to you Mate!

The proof is all around you.
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post #92 of 1655 Old 10-23-2006, 09:01 AM
 
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Originally Posted by pftaylor View Post

I want to drink the SED kool-aid. I really do. I just can't.

What I have trouble with is the lack of available information about available screen dimensions in order to make an informed decision. To me that means that we could be five or more years away before large sizes emerge. I realize that is a guess, but so is everything else I have read about this soon-to-be-produced product.

When will there be a 60"?
How about a 70"?
Is an 80" even possible?

My point is, I don't care how stupendous a 55" or so sized screen looks because it will never work in my intended room with my viewing habits. So for me, I am destined to invest in available technolgies that suit my lifestyle. In the realm of tv watching that means 70" or better. So for now, I will invest in a 70" SXRD and hope that a 70" or bigger SED is available at some point in the future. I'm hoping that occurs sooner rather than later.

Only problem is, hope isn't a strategy.

Getting a 70 inch SXRD is not a bad idea, but don't expect the PQ to be anything close to SED, you get what you pay for. BTW, Toshiba/Canon had me in mind, 55 inches is perfect for me.
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post #93 of 1655 Old 10-23-2006, 09:08 AM
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My question is, how long before SED is affordable for your common consumer, say less than $2000 for a 50"?
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post #94 of 1655 Old 10-23-2006, 09:12 AM
 
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Luv 'em ! - Brighter and wider Color Gamut than SED

Here we go again, color gamut and the snake oil of the month. Offering colors that you eyes can't even see. Just like a 1080p set on 42 inch screen. Now that folks are getting hip to that scam, here comes the new snake oil.



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could ever dream of
And with dynamic LED backlighting, Blacks down to cut-off.

I have never seen a LCD with great black levels and you never will because the definintion of LCD means poor blacks.

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Phosphor illumination might have been a good idea in 1950 when the Shadow Mask Color Kinescope was being developed , but not today.

The last time I checked phosphor based display technology is considered the reference standard by the majority of the globes video experts, videophiles and display technology scientist.

LCD is primarily being pushed by the interactive gamer community(gen X) and not by those who's primary interest is uncompromised PQ. SED is for those who are tired of compromised PQ.
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post #95 of 1655 Old 10-23-2006, 09:13 AM
 
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Originally Posted by USCsuperfan View Post

My question is, how long before SED is affordable for your common consumer, say less than $2000 for a 50"?

We don't know at this point.
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post #96 of 1655 Old 10-23-2006, 09:17 AM
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Supposing SED takes 200 watts of less power than a competing technology... A price of 7 cents / kWh is pretty typically. 5 hours of use costs 7 cents extra. It's more like a dollar a week, at very heavy usage of 70 hours/week.

The maximum usage of the PD60 is 345 watts but average is probably like 220 or so (just a guess). Over the 4-year, 4500 hour life of my Panasonic ED TV till I stepped up to the 50", it cost about $70 to run the TV for that entire time... Just a bit more than a tank of gas, and about a week of heating the home in the dead of winter. A very small consideration and certainly far outweighed by any other performance or asthetic quality of a TV, IMO.

If you wanna be green then you have my support and respect. I just hope you're not driving a 20 mpg SUV around but buying an LCD because you think it's better for the environment.
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post #97 of 1655 Old 10-23-2006, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

We don't know at this point.

How about some useless speculation then?
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post #98 of 1655 Old 10-23-2006, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by USCsuperfan View Post

How about some useless speculation then?


Well, considering that a 50" plasma or LCD panel should be much more affordable in a couple of years when SED is released, I don't think you'll have to wait that long after release. My guess is that 2nd generation SED panels (2009) should be in your pricerange.
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post #99 of 1655 Old 10-23-2006, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by DIPHONIC View Post

Luv 'em ! - Brighter and wider Color Gamut than SED could ever dream of
And with dynamic LED backlighting, Blacks down to cut-off.

Phosphor illumination might have been a good idea in 1950 when the Shadow Mask Color Kinescope was being developed , but not today.

If LCD is what floats your boat, and you do not have an any interest in SED, why are practically all your posts on the SED thread, and almost nothing on the LCD threads?.
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post #100 of 1655 Old 10-23-2006, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by greenland View Post

If LCD is what floats your boat, and you do not have an any interest in SED, why are practically all your posts on the SED thread, and almost nothing on the LCD threads?.

On other boards, that poster would be called a "Troll".
"In Internet terminology, a troll is a person who enters an established community such as an online discussion forum and intentionally tries to cause disruption, most often in the form of posting inflammatory, off-topic, or otherwise inappropriate messages"

I, for one, feel that waiting...sucks. Not that I am a SED convert, but when I factor in what a 52-55" LCD costs now, and being an average-joe at funding (aka financing) the purchase, I feel that once I am done paying off the LCD TV, the SED will be out and likely 40% less than my original (and now dated) LCD TV purchase.

I'd rather take the $5000 (that is what a 55" LCD retails for currently) and invest it. By 2008, I'll be able to afford not only the tv, but the taxes on the capital gains!
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post #101 of 1655 Old 10-23-2006, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by uzombie View Post

On other boards, that poster would be called a "Troll".
"In Internet terminology, a troll is a person who enters an established community such as an online discussion forum and intentionally tries to cause disruption, most often in the form of posting inflammatory, off-topic, or otherwise inappropriate messages"

We have a thread monitor who deletes pointed observations about such people's behavior, so I choose to sublimate the point in the form of a question.

Now for a SED question, on the SED thread.
Does anybody have any contacts with the SED people with Canon or Toshiba, and can you check with them to see if they will be showing the 1080P 55inch panel at the upcoming CES in Vegas. If we knew for sure that they were, if might be worthwhile to find someone who will attend CES and arm them with a list of questions we would like answered. It seems like all that the journalists do is go slack jawed when the demo is shown and never get down to specifics about specs.
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post #102 of 1655 Old 10-23-2006, 01:31 PM
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If your looking for the biggest buzz at Japan's CEATEC this year, go no further than the Canon/Toshiba SED booth in Hall 1 at this massive precursor to the January Consumer Electronics Show. Here, the Surface-conduction Electron-emitter Display (SED), which was conspicuously absent from SID and other display technology venues this year, is being shown in a 55-inch model.

Lines begin forming a good 40 minutes to 1 hr. before the closed-door presentation, and that's the line to get tickets. There is yet another line to see the demonstration.

To my knowledge, no one who has seen the SED technology up front and close denies the display prowess. And the specs support this. The 55-inch model shown publicly for the first time here yesterday includes a 1920 x 1080 display resolution boasting 50,000:1 contrast at 450 cd/m2 brightness at a less than 1ms response time. Yutaka Sakuraba, SEDs deputy senior general manager for product development and design claims true CRT like performance from the flat panel display; something he said no other display technology can even approach.

Possibly true, but the company has yet to demonstrate they can produce these results in mass quantities and perhaps more importantly, at a price point competitive with rival LCD and PDP flat screens. Adding fuel to doubting display analyst crowd is the company's long delay in bringing the product to market-or even full production.

For his part, Sakuraba said flat panel market conditions, including significant price erosion in the space, forced a re-visit of product development plans including cost-down and ramp models more than once. It's been a planning nightmare for the team but we believe we are on track for full production in the 2008 time frame. he said. We're looking at the broader view and mass migration to DTV by 2011 when digital TV signals become the standard and all analog goes away. Sakuraba continued.

The company will spend the first half of 2007 perfecting its prototype process in Hitatsuka, Japan where the 55-inch units shown at CEATEC were produced. The company plans to be in serial-production by July-07 with a 55-inch line. Then, it will move to full production at a former Toshiba CRT factory located in Himaji, (Hyogo prefecture) Japan by the beginning of 2008.

Sakuraba emphasized all equipment used to build the new displays in the company's prototype factory was developed in-house leveraging the technology strengths of both partners. For example, Canon is supplying critical ink-jet technology in applying the palladium-oxide and carbon compound emitter layer. So the company is charged not only with developing the process, but building the tools to manufacture the technology as well.

Make no mistake, what these two companies are attempting is no less than a display technology paradigm shift in the face of LCD and PDP flat panel dominance - the result of billions of R&D and capacity investment dollars and ballooning output fueling accelerated price declines which continually spur demand for these traditional flat panels. But the company is bullish on SED display superiority, pouring development funds and resources into the project. And if the growing crowds here at CEATEC portend the future, the SED image is one certainly worth waiting for. The question is: will this wait ever be rewarded?
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post #103 of 1655 Old 10-23-2006, 02:43 PM
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"It's just that a TV running at 300 Watts of power consumption vs. say 150 Watts is a very small consideration compared to stoves, clothes dryers, hot water heaters, window and external structure insulation, esspecially automobiles, and even speaker amplifiers that it doesn't really affect the big picture. "

So, to keep this on track, if SED is really lower power, it would attract me for that reason.

I have a clothes washer/dryer that is Energy Star, low-water use (Maytag Neptune series). We just replaced our hot-water heater with the most efficient model in the series. We have one hybrid car in the household (and will get a 2nd when the time to replace the first is ripe). We are putting in CFs as we get around to it. And we make a lot of our own electricity with a solar PV system.

I'd consider supporting it for power consumption reasons alone, so long as the price of saving power wasn't outrageous. If I retire the new plasma to the bedroom at that point, it'll be used so little that it's "wastefulness" would truly be insignificant.

Mark

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #104 of 1655 Old 10-23-2006, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post

I'd consider supporting it for power consumption reasons alone, so long as the price of saving power wasn't outrageous. If I retire the new plasma to the bedroom at that point, it'll be used so little that it's "wastefulness" would truly be insignificant.

You didn't quote my calc which showed total cost of $70 over 4 years for running my ED TV, which I thought was a compelling point. Did you miss it?

At any rate... It's clear that in your case you've given it a lot of thought and are also making efforts in all facets of your lifestyle. I can't argue with that and actually I truly thank you as a fellow inhabitant of this planet.

Like I said, I'm more against the common misconception that "I'll save a lot of money because it uses less power" or "I'm environmentally friendly because my TV saves energy, even though I self-commute 40 miles to work each day in an SUV." You obviously don't fit into either of those classifications.
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Originally Posted by USCsuperfan View Post

My question is, how long before SED is affordable for your common consumer, say less than $2000 for a 50"?

Most likely when 3D HDTV's are invented but the good news is when SED TVs become available, you should be able to get a 1080p PDP for that price.
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post #106 of 1655 Old 10-23-2006, 03:18 PM
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So, to keep this on track, if SED is really lower power, it would attract me for that reason.

That's also one of the many reasons why I'll wait until SED to make my first HDTV purchase. Other than an average PQ, too high power consumption has been the main reason that automatically disqualifies plasma from my consideration. SED should fix both PQ and PC issues.
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post #107 of 1655 Old 10-23-2006, 04:42 PM
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Rogo, you are a man after my own heart. My big power savings was replacing the fridge - it cut 1/3 off my power bill. Then again, there are false economies - you could maximize your savings by unplugging it and never using it, but that wouldn't make much sense, eh? Bottom line is you have to be happy enough with the technology. There would frankly be more to gain by finding ways to reduce the stand-by draw of various electronic devices - there unfortunately doesn't seem to be any easy way to do this except look at the stand-by draw more carefully before purchasing.
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post #108 of 1655 Old 10-23-2006, 04:55 PM
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Auditor, I don't know what you mean by "colors you can't even see". You certainly can see them as they are still in the human visual range. Phosphor technology only supported about 70% of the NTSC, which itself defined a triangle that trimmed off something of what humans are capable of seeing.

A few DLP makers have tried to better approximate the visual range with 5-color systems that define a pentagonal shape in the color space. I vaguely recall some Israeli company doing some research in that area as well. The new wider-gamut LED-backlit LCD technology would seem to be worth a look.

If you are arguing lack of content, that's another matter and kind of a chicken-and-egg issue, is it not?
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post #109 of 1655 Old 10-23-2006, 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by wojtek View Post

Ken - I've been wondering.

You've been quite pessimistic in these SED threads.

I am just trying to understand - no disrespect - how much of your pessimism is based on the understandable doubt about the new, unproven technologies (like SED), and how much is based on the fact that if SED will be all that it promises to be, you'll have to throw both your (expensive) Fujitsus out the window?

It's not so much that I'm pessimistic about SED, but I'm trying to throw some reality in to the mix here. Some are proclaiming that SED has already won the war, trounced LCDs, trounced plasmas and trounced any other imaging technology ever invented. Some are essentially saying why are the other manufacturers even bothering continuing with other technologies. It's this kind of talk that demands a couterpoint. AVS is about sharing ideas and sometimes misinformation can run rampant. I can't tell you how many threads we've seen over the years proclaiming that all other technologies should just cease and desist since the latest & greatest technology de jour was about to knock all other contenders out of the box. It never happened.

I hope that SED is all it's cracked up to be! I've never been known for turning my back to a technology I knew was superior. It happened when I saw plasmas relative to my big HD RPTV. I could have ignored it, but my eyes couldn't lie. But here's what I consider to be the simple truth about SEDs as we know it today:

* We don't know how bright these displays will be and whether they will be a viable 'bright ambient room' display like LCDs. Advantage unknown.

* We know they will have reflective screen surfaces just like CRTs and plasmas. No advantage relative to plasmas and disadvantage relative to LCDs.

* We know they are supposed to offer superior blacks relative to plasmas. That's surely a plus. Advantage SEDs.

* We know they will be prone to burn-in just like plasmas, just like CRTs. No advantage relative to plasmas and a disadvantage relative to LCDs.

* We know they will more than likely be more expensive than similarly sized competing technologies. Disadvantage SED.

* We know they will be initially limited in size. For me 55" offers nothing. I currently have a 50" plasma and would never switch for a mere 5". I'm looking for 65"....something more cinematic. Disadvantage SED.

* We have no idea what the reliability or lifetime issues are with SEDs. Potential disadvantage SEDs.

* How about mass production efficencies/inefficiencies? Unknown and concerning.

* All of this assumes that plasmas and other technologies will come to a screeching halt in further development between now and when SEDs become common. A very very foolish assumption when we already know that Pioneer has announced a new breakthough in reduced black levels on plasmas....a patent that is apparently shared with Panasonic. If this pans out, IMO, the major advantage of SED is gone....in an instant!

So you see, this is far far from a black & white issue (sorry for the bad pun). As it stands now, the only advantage I see is that of the superior blacks. Beyond that I simply see nothing to be excited about....certainly not size, certainly not lifespan, certainly not reflections, certainly not burn-in.

Oh yes, and as to the Fujitsu being the 'same dreck' as other plasmas or plasmas in general, we couldn't disagree more....simply not possible!
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post #110 of 1655 Old 10-23-2006, 05:09 PM
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Ken you forgot SED's advantage in off axis viewing

Just like women, nobody said this was going to be cheap either...
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post #111 of 1655 Old 10-23-2006, 05:16 PM
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Ken you forgot SED's advantage in off axis viewing

True, but no advantage again relative to plasmas...only LCDs and RPTV technologies.
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post #112 of 1655 Old 10-23-2006, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

True, but no advantage again relative to plasmas...only LCDs and RPTV technologies.

Oh, and motion as well

As for light output, they should be more than bright enough at their current specs, though not likely as bright as LCD's. If you ask me, that's an advantage LCD's work great for bright rooms but fail miserably in more critical, darker environs. They're not really in competion on that front IMO. Two different animals bred for two different purposes in that case.

Just like women, nobody said this was going to be cheap either...
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post #113 of 1655 Old 10-24-2006, 03:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Felgar View Post

You didn't quote my calc which showed total cost of $70 over 4 years for running my ED TV, which I thought was a compelling point. Did you miss it?

At any rate... It's clear that in your case you've given it a lot of thought and are also making efforts in all facets of your lifestyle. I can't argue with that and actually I truly thank you as a fellow inhabitant of this planet.

Like I said, I'm more against the common misconception that "I'll save a lot of money because it uses less power" or "I'm environmentally friendly because my TV saves energy, even though I self-commute 40 miles to work each day in an SUV." You obviously don't fit into either of those classifications.

Well, aside from the fact that my electricity is 11 cents / kWh and rising, I don't care if it saves $70 over 4 year or $20 or $200... I just care it saves.

I also largely work out of home and while I used to drive 15 mpg, gas guzzlers, I'm done with that forever.

I agree with you that people can think they are conserving when they aren't, but I also think the No. 1 imperative for America is to stop importing any energy. And so whatever tiny contributions I can make interest me.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #114 of 1655 Old 10-24-2006, 03:17 AM
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Originally Posted by dmcmahon View Post

Rogo, you are a man after my own heart. My big power savings was replacing the fridge - it cut 1/3 off my power bill. Then again, there are false economies - you could maximize your savings by unplugging it and never using it, but that wouldn't make much sense, eh? Bottom line is you have to be happy enough with the technology. There would frankly be more to gain by finding ways to reduce the stand-by draw of various electronic devices - there unfortunately doesn't seem to be any easy way to do this except look at the stand-by draw more carefully before purchasing.

I'm not advocating shutting off the refrigerator or freezing one's rear off in the winter... Or even giving up hobbies like home theater.

But I will do things like get a smaller "everyday" TV until or unless larger ones get less power hungry.

In the meantime, we are trying to unplug power leeches that draw on standby for no reason and find whatever we can that's wasteful and get rid of it.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #115 of 1655 Old 10-24-2006, 05:46 AM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post

I'm not advocating shutting off the refrigerator or freezing one's rear off in the winter... Or even giving up hobbies like home theater.

But I will do things like get a smaller "everyday" TV until or unless larger ones get less power hungry.

In the meantime, we are trying to unplug power leeches that draw on standby for no reason and find whatever we can that's wasteful and get rid of it.





...Are you guys saying I should shut off my 2 mono valve (tube) power amps each night. Tell me it is not so!
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post #116 of 1655 Old 10-24-2006, 07:00 AM
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[/quote]* All of this assumes that plasmas and other technologies will come to a screeching halt in further development between now and when SEDs become common. A very very foolish assumption when we already know that Pioneer has announced a new breakthough in reduced black levels on plasmas....a patent that is apparently shared with Panasonic. If this pans out, IMO, the major advantage of SED is gone....in an instant!

So you see, this is far far from a black & white issue (sorry for the bad pun). As it stands now, the only advantage I see is that of the superior blacks. Beyond that I simply see nothing to be excited about....certainly not size, certainly not lifespan, certainly not reflections, certainly not burn-in.

Oh yes, and as to the Fujitsu being the 'same dreck' as other plasmas or plasmas in general, we couldn't disagree more....simply not possible![/quote]

WOW! If that's true about Panny and Pioneer...SED has no shot! Sign me up for whatever product those two companies produce jointly.
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post #117 of 1655 Old 10-24-2006, 07:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

...we already know that Pioneer has announced a new breakthough in reduced black levels on plasmas....a patent that is apparently shared with Panasonic. If this pans out, IMO, the major advantage of SED is gone....in an instant!

Any further details on this technology? AVS thread or press release?

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post #118 of 1655 Old 10-24-2006, 07:30 AM
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Originally Posted by mikea28 View Post

Any further details on this technology? AVS thread or press release?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=732903
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post #119 of 1655 Old 10-24-2006, 07:45 AM
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I found two cool videos via a tech blog I read. They're on youtube. Not sure if they have been posted or not, but neat vids on SED. The watermark at the bottom says they are from dlmag.com

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxv7mmKHRhs&eurl=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wATx4KjECDA&eurl=
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post #120 of 1655 Old 10-24-2006, 07:59 AM
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I bring up Google Japan and request for searches of Japan sites only, then i type in SED Canon in the Google Japan. I can translate the Google Japan page to English, but when i do the SED Canon search, all the sites come up in Japanese and i do not know how to translate these sites to English. Here is a site in Japanese with a picture of the SED http://journal.mycom.co.jp/photo/ar.../images/01l.jpg but i would like to actually read some of these sights. Can someone here tell me how i might be able to translate all those sites.

http://translate.google.com/translat...%26lr%3D%26sa%
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