Official SED NEWS & Technology Thread Part 2! - Page 7 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #181 of 1655 Old 10-26-2006, 05:07 AM
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"One thing I'll say for SED is I like its simplicity & potential ease of fabrication compared to Plasma."

Laughable. Whatever breakthrough they may have made in the past 3 months that moved SED from "not manufacturable at a reasonable price" to "plausible" has not been released. You know nothing about the fabbing. Hell, Toshiba and Canon know little. Most of the fabbing processes have never been done before and certainly not for this purpose.

As for ease of fabbing, LCDs are one of the most complex things in the known universe. And yet they are awfully cheap -- when produced in huge quantities.

LED LCDs, fwiw, are a solution to only some LCD problems but hey, at least they cost a ton and consume ungodly amounts of power.

Oh, and the horrendous fill factor of LCDs is not going away. And yet for most people, it's not noticeable at viewing distances. Kinda like the other 900 problems AVSers see that other don't. Kinda why SED's "advantages" can only carry it so far in the marketplace.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #182 of 1655 Old 10-26-2006, 07:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by astrobuf View Post

Expect the SED displays to be at least as heavy as PDP's, probably heavier. The basic design of all FED devices requires that a very high vacuum be maintained in the display envelope. Spec's of 10E-8 to 10E-9 Torr are required to ensure the durability of the display. This leads to the need to use heavy glass. 2 sheets @ 2.8mm think is presently spec'd.

PDP TV's presently use 2.8mm glass for the back panel and 1.8mm glass for the front. Some manufactureres use a third sheet for the IR/EMI filter as well. I'd imagine 3 sheet PDP's would weigh the same as a 2 sheet SED/FED display. A two sheet PDP would weigh about 10# less at 42".

The SED demo was staged in a darkened theater. the front panels seem to have some sort of antireflection coating on them. As is typical for any emissive device, I'd expect the SED to look poor in a high ambient (Best Buy/Circuit City) light environment.

Power spec's were not cited, but in general the SED should have about twice the luminous efficiency of present best in class (Pioneer) PDP's. Pioneer is running at about 2.2lm/W for their gen 7 sets. I'd expect SED is closer to 5lm/W at present. Both have the potential to increase efficiency by 10X over time.

I am certain they will bring the demo to CES. There was a second tradeshow in Tokyo last week, FPD International (actually in Yokohama) and the same demo (3 55" SED's were shown there. Canon/Toshiba have been at CES for the last three years, but there demos have been by invitation only. I expect the CEATEC/FPD Intl demo booth will eb publically open at CES.

I have photos fo CEATEC and FPD Intl. that I'd post if the forum moderator would grant me the privledge now!


Astrobuf

Thanks very much for the in depth reply. It is very informative. I have often wondered about the glass strength required because of the high vacuum space. I believe that once you get to five postings you will be able to post the pictures, so if you just throw in a couple of brief posts about the plasmas, on their threads, you will be able to add your pictures to this thread. When you do, please include any pictures that you have of the Plasma displays also, so that we can get a comparison sense of what you described, or at least as much as pictures are able to convey. Thanks again.
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post #183 of 1655 Old 10-26-2006, 07:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by astrobuf View Post



I have photos fo CEATEC and FPD Intl. that I'd post if the forum moderator would grant me the privledge now!


Astrobuf

once you have 5 posts you can put up photos

Welcome to AVS

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if you see a problematic post, please do not quote it or respond to it: report it to the mods to handle
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post #184 of 1655 Old 10-26-2006, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post

LED LCDs, fwiw, are a solution to only some LCD problems but hey, at least they cost a ton and consume ungodly amounts of power.

Oh, and the horrendous fill factor of LCDs is not going away. And yet for most people, it's not noticeable at viewing distances. Kinda like the other 900 problems AVSers see that other don't. Kinda why SED's "advantages" can only carry it so far in the marketplace.

I was hoping the LED backlights would consume less power, not more. LED lighting is used now in place of incandescent in things like the tail lights of hybrid cars. LED bulbs to replace CFL bulbs is often talked about as well.

You call the fill factor of LCD "horrendous", but compared to what? To my eye sitting smack in front of an LCD panel the pixel structure is tighter than any other non-projection display technology I've looked at. The structure on plasmas is much more noticeable. Even CRTs have bigger spaces between pixels due to the shadow mask or aperture grill. This is certainly a non-problem even for videophiles at normal viewing distances. I'll take the "horrendous" fill factor over the wishy-washy images I see from rear-projectors any day. Plus, won't SED also have some level of cell structure visible up close?
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post #185 of 1655 Old 10-26-2006, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by dmcmahon View Post


You call the fill factor of LCD "horrendous", but compared to what? To my eye sitting smack in front of an LCD panel the pixel structure is tighter than any other non-projection display technology I've looked at.

I'm confused by this as well, for the same reason. I've seen others talk about the poor fill factor for LCDs and wondered what they've meant, so I'm interested in getting a clarification about this (from anyone).


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post #186 of 1655 Old 10-26-2006, 09:18 AM
 
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post #187 of 1655 Old 10-26-2006, 09:28 AM
 
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Originally Posted by CruelInventions View Post

I'm confused by this as well, for the same reason. I've seen others talk about the poor fill factor for LCDs and wondered what they've meant, so I'm interested in getting a clarification about this (from anyone).

Fill Factor is an issue with Plasma as well as LCD.
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post #188 of 1655 Old 10-26-2006, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by DIPHONIC View Post

The difference is not subtle. nature scenes come alive with Wide Color Gamut:
Poppys, flower petals, Lava Lamps !
Most consumer CRTs have really lousy reds !

Whites look better with Wide Color Gamut too: Snow, Ice, sand

ASIANS are into colors more than we are in the West, that's why they're crazy for
LED Backlighting LCDs right now. I don't think there's any turning back now.
I might buy one of those LED DLPs to watch until LED LCD ramps up.

WAITING for LED LCD

How about green? Phosphor based tv's can display DARK green as well as other shades,tones, brilliantly and very realistic. Lcd can only do neon looking greens. LED has not proven nothing ,and i highly doubt it can compare to phosphor based tv.
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post #189 of 1655 Old 10-26-2006, 09:50 AM
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Did I say I never see them? No! Did I say that it occurs so seldom as to essentially be a non-issue? Yes! Did I say improvements in this area on a display like the Fujitsu does next to nothing for me? Yes. And let me ask you this Auditor: Are you aware that false contouring is sometimes within the source itself? I've got some DVDs to prove that. I've put the same DVD on my plasma and my 34" Panasonic CRT HDTV and have seen false contouring on both displays in precisely the same scene....thus it is in the SOURCE. I know many of you SED guys would jump so high you'd hit your head on the ceiling if I showed you that scene on the plasma without showing you the same scene on a CRT.

So what happens when you get your SED that has no false contouring and then see false contouring? Good luck.

This is my biggest gripe with plasma, second would be the dlp like rainbow effect.
I dont know how fujitsu fares, but i've read the avm processor does not live up to the hype that fujitsu claims. Since sed is totaly different tech, i dont think it will have false contouring, dithering, actual looking rainbow colors that plasma displays... Yea i dont see it either on most high quality dvd's. Its a annoyance though. Same with noise, noisy dvd's seemed to be enhanced by plasma....

Does anyone know if SED will be a true digital device, or analog?
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post #190 of 1655 Old 10-26-2006, 10:15 AM
 
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I thought this was the SED Information thread. The use of the word "stillborn" to discribe SED in this thread is not very informative. From all the most recent news coming from the SED camp, the overwhelming evidences shows that Toshiba Canon is moving forward with SED, to me and to many videophiles this is good news.

What previously held SED back was production issues and rapid decline in the prices of plasma and LCD, this admittedly caused a delay in SED coming to the market, now it seems those issues for the most part have been resolved.

Everyone in the industry, not just enthusiasts, who have seen SED was blown away (I hate those terms) and I have yet to read any reports from anyone from the video media who makes a living reporting on this stuff believes that any current display technology equals SED.

I and others have posted pics and side by side comparisons of SED vs current display technology that demonstrate SED's primary advantage, black level. We have posted numerous accounts of eye witness testimony from those in the industry its always unanimous, SED is stupendous.

Plasma's along with LCD's have many problems that SED won't have like response time issues, fill factor, dithering, internal relfections, energy consumption
so on and so forth.

I read one expert eye witness discribe SED looking as if each pixel was tiny little picture tube.
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post #191 of 1655 Old 10-26-2006, 10:21 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Zues View Post

This is my biggest gripe with plasma, second would be the dlp like rainbow effect.
I dont know how fujitsu fares, but i've read the avm processor does not live up to the hype that fujitsu claims. Since sed is totaly different tech, i dont think it will have false contouring, dithering, actual looking rainbow colors that plasma displays... Yea i dont see it either on most high quality dvd's. Its a annoyance though. Same with noise, noisy dvd's seemed to be enhanced by plasma....

Does anyone know if SED will be a true digital device, or analog?


Here are some comments made by Dr. Raymond Soneira regarding SED.

Potentially the most interesting is the Canon-Toshiba Surface-conduction Electron-emitter Display, SED, which is a very thin (under 1 centimeter) [B]CRT-like phosphor-based display technology. It has digitally addressed pixels, however, the brightness of each pixel is produced through an analog process, so it should be free of the digital artifacts present in plasma and DLP displays,[/b] which have digital on-off intensity controls produced with pulse width modulation (see Part III). In this regard SED is very similar to LCoS. As an emissive technology, SED already produces CRT-like black levels, with contrast ratios in the 10,000 to 100,000 range (much better than plasma because it doesn't need to maintain a background level for priming the discharge). The response time is speced at 1ms, which is very fast.
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post #192 of 1655 Old 10-26-2006, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Zues View Post


Does anyone know if SED will be a true digital device, or analog?

It would appear that it would have to be digital. It dedicates an individual(dedicated) electron emitter to each pixel. That would require it to signal every one of the 1080P pixels on an individual basis. I would think that would have to be done on a digital basis.
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post #193 of 1655 Old 10-26-2006, 10:30 AM
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I think SONY needs to invest in sed. Sxrd and lcd is a dead end imo.
Toshiba? I would never buy no toshiba crt tube. Even with current crt technology toshiba cant make the picture look as good as sony XBR can.. Sony needs to get in the ball game with sed. They already avoided plasma which was a mistake..
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post #194 of 1655 Old 10-26-2006, 10:44 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Zues View Post

I think SONY needs to invest in sed. Sxrd and lcd is a dead end imo.
Toshiba? I would never buy no toshiba crt tube. Even with current crt technology toshiba cant make the picture look as good as sony XBR can.. Sony needs to get in the ball game with sed. They already avoided plasma which was a mistake..

It would be good if Sony got into SED. I expect at sometime Toshiba/Canon will license SED technology out to other manufacturers.
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post #195 of 1655 Old 10-26-2006, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Zues View Post

I think SONY needs to invest in sed. Sxrd and lcd is a dead end imo.
Toshiba? I would never buy no toshiba crt tube. Even with current crt technology toshiba cant make the picture look as good as sony XBR can.. Sony needs to get in the ball game with sed. They already avoided plasma which was a mistake..

Sony has not got any dog in the SED fight. Toshiba and Canon are not going to help one of the major competitors by giving them access to their SED patents.
Sony is starting to look like they are in big trouble. They just reported a 94% drop in earnings for the past quarter. They are having all kinds of problems with their next playstation, and they do not pioneer much in the way of cutting edge technology. They have being getting their LCD panels from Samsung and are having problems getting a HD DVD player to market. Sony looks like a company that is living on past reputation, and not really all that big a deal anymore. When they finish paying the piper for all the defective batteries, and settle a lot of suits, they may remain as just a mere shadow of their former greatness.
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post #196 of 1655 Old 10-26-2006, 10:47 AM
 
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Originally Posted by greenland View Post

It would appear that it would have to be digital. It dedicates an individual(dedicated) electron emitter to each pixel. That would require it to signal every one of the 1080P pixels on an individual basis. I would think that would have to be done on a digital basis.

Yes and according to Dr. Soneira, the brightness of each pixel is addressed through analog process which will eliminate plasma type artifacts.
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post #197 of 1655 Old 10-26-2006, 10:49 AM
 
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Originally Posted by greenland View Post

Sony has not got any dog in the SED fight. Toshiba and Canon are not going to help one of the major competitors by giving them access to their SED patents.
Sony is starting to look like they are in big trouble. They just reported a 94% drop in earnings for the past quarter. They are having all kinds of problems with their next playstation, and they do not pioneer much in the way of cutting edge technology. They have being getting their LCD panels from Samsung and are having problems getting a HD DVD player to market. Sony looks like a company that is living on past reputation, and not really all that big a deal anymore. When they finish paying the piper for all the defective batteries, and settle a lot of suits, they may remain as just a mere shadow of their former greatness.

Sony was hoping that the SXRD would breath new life into them, but that seems wishful thinking at best considering that the SXRD is a RPTV and the market seems to be going in the direction of flat panel.
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post #198 of 1655 Old 10-26-2006, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by greenland View Post

Sony has not got any dog in the SED fight. Toshiba and Canon are not going to help one of the major competitors by giving them access to their SED patents.

Sony looks like a company that is living on past reputation, and not really all that big a deal any more


If they offer toshiba enough money anything possible Does toshiba plan to be the only seller of SED?

Sony reputation is still high for me as far as tv know how.. The options on xbrs are still the best imo.
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post #199 of 1655 Old 10-26-2006, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Zues View Post

I think SONY needs to invest in sed. Sxrd and lcd is a dead end imo.
Toshiba? I would never buy no toshiba crt tube. Even with current crt technology toshiba cant make the picture look as good as sony XBR can.. Sony needs to get in the ball game with sed. They already avoided plasma which was a mistake..

And how should they do that, given that Canon/Toshiba aren't licensing the technology?

As promising as SED is on PQ-level, it may fail at the economic realities of markets. All the videophiles in the world aren't enough to make a whole technology economicly viable. They can make a small quality brand within a technology viable - SIM for example - but not a technology as a whole.

It is difficult for a technology to pull through market wise if it isn't an industry standard among all the mayor players on the mass consumer market. Furthermore, the bulk of the world market is geared for 42" or less - due to the average housing conditions - and a relatively small part to really larges sizes. The US will do somewhat better on the latter because they have above average living rooms - and above average wealth - but it still will not be an earth shattering marketshare.

The big profits are in the big numbers, so in quantity of sales. I am worried that if Canon/Toshiba consede <42" and below to LCD, or wait to long to penetrate that market, that SED will become a showcase technology only. I don't understand why they don't push fast and agressivly first in the mass market segment (<42") instead of starting with 55". Apart from the very small numbers videophiles are comprised of, publicity wise they are also irrelevant.

I like SED to happen. I still hang on to my CRT because the current new tv's do not meet my standards. But I am very worried on SED on the marketside of things.

PS
Sony did not avoid plasma afaik, but dropped it. And rightfully so if mass markets are your priority. SXRD is a nice showcase technology, but economicly not very relevant.
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post #200 of 1655 Old 10-26-2006, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

Fill Factor is an issue with Plasma as well as LCD.

well, that's a given, or at least, more obvious to me the closer you get to a plasma, the exact degree dependent on it's native resolution, of course. I don't really notice it on LCDs though, hence, my confusion about LCDs supposed fill factor problem. I assume you guys are saying that even if LCD might be better than plasmas in this regard, it still could be better?



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Everyone in the industry, not just enthusiasts, who have seen SED was blown away (I hate those terms) and I have yet to read any reports from anyone from the video media who makes a living reporting on this stuff believes that any current display technology equals SED.

Well, just a few posts ago, astrobuf stated that while SED was indeed impressive, it wasn't blowing away the newest Pioneer Plasma technology. His exact words, "Finally, I went into the Pioneer demo booth and got to see their 8th Gen PDP compared to a large current production LCD, both about 50" in size. To say the least, I was stunned by the next gen Pioneer PDP blacklevels. They were as good as the SED had appeared when I visited there. Pioneer spec'd their DRCR at 25,000:1.

With this demo, my conclusion is that the SED will have a tough time finding enough advantage vs PDP to gain much market energy. SED may end up being still born, a great idea that never gains traction and enough industrial infrastructure to compete ala Beta vs VHS."



Of course, this is merely one mans opinion, but he doesn't appear to be a raving ideologue who is substantially biased when it comes to comparing panel technologies. More importantly, assuming he is not an "expert", his opinion could be much more valuable in terms of representing the average potential customer.


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post #201 of 1655 Old 10-26-2006, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Zues View Post

Toshiba? I would never buy no toshiba crt tube.

Back in the good old CRT days Toshiba was actually a major manufacturer/supplier of high quality and VERY well regarded CRT's....before they started outsourcing them for their TV's

In fact, I believe one of the most highly regarded CRT monitors ever made, the Princeton AR3.4FTW used Toshiba tubes unless I'm mistaken.

Just like women, nobody said this was going to be cheap either...
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post #202 of 1655 Old 10-26-2006, 11:58 AM
 
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well, that's a given, or at least, more obvious to me the closer you get to a plasma, the exact degree dependent on it's native resolution, of course. I don't really notice it on LCDs though, hence, my confusion about LCDs supposed fill factor problem. I assume you guys are saying that even if LCD might be better than plasmas in this regard, it still could be better?





Well, just a few posts ago, astrobuf stated that while SED was indeed impressive, it wasn't blowing away the newest Pioneer Plasma technology. His exact words, "Finally, I went into the Pioneer demo booth and got to see their 8th Gen PDP compared to a large current production LCD, both about 50" in size. To say the least, I was stunned by the next gen Pioneer PDP blacklevels. They were as good as the SED had appeared when I visited there. Pioneer spec'd their DRCR at 25,000:1.

With this demo, my conclusion is that the SED will have a tough time finding enough advantage vs PDP to gain much market energy. SED may end up being still born, a great idea that never gains traction and enough industrial infrastructure to compete ala Beta vs VHS."



Of course, this is merely one mans opinion, but he doesn't appear to be a raving ideologue who is substantially biased when it comes to comparing panel technologies. More importantly, assuming he is not an "expert", his opinion could be much more valuable in terms of representing the average potential customer.

When I read a word like "stillborn" being used to discribe the future of SED by someone in the SED thread, I'm very skeptical about that reporting. Also, any video expert know that isn't proper way compare display technolgies, as set forth aforementioned post. Considering the fact the other experts in the industry that get paid to cover this stuff all the time, who also attended that event, still came away showering praise upon SED over and above everything else.

I read that, even though there was other technologies being presented at that event, the biggest buzz was for SED, everyone was waiting to see SED.

I'm quite board with plasma and LCD.
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post #203 of 1655 Old 10-26-2006, 12:04 PM
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My point was that it's only one of the advantages being listed on Canon's SED page - and not even the first one listed.

And my point is that as far as most videophiles are concerned, it IS the black issue that makes SED interesting. I don't recall one plasma owner saying "gee, I've got to get rid of my plasma due to image retention issues". Madshi, you can pick apart ANY display with inherent issues of one type or another, but the real issue is what becomes distracting and detracts from the viewing experience. I contend it is not image retention with plasmas and you're beating a dead horse if you think that's the case. It is the black levels pure and simple. If you think otherwise we shall agree to disagree. And the issue of blacks will most probably not be an issue with plasmas by the time SEDs are readily available. Of course if you prefer to pick on an issue you 'think' SED will still have an advantage with relative to plasmas at the time of its release, even if discriminating plasma owners don't think that's an issue, that's your choice.

I will also say that if SEDs are going to relay on image retention for their selling point (based on the new plasmas that will be out by that time), they'll sell about a half dozen.
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post #204 of 1655 Old 10-26-2006, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Zues View Post

This is my biggest gripe with plasma, second would be the dlp like rainbow effect.
I dont know how fujitsu fares, but i've read the avm processor does not live up to the hype that fujitsu claims. Since sed is totaly different tech, i dont think it will have false contouring, dithering, actual looking rainbow colors that plasma displays... Yea i dont see it either on most high quality dvd's. Its a annoyance though. Same with noise, noisy dvd's seemed to be enhanced by plasma....

Does anyone know if SED will be a true digital device, or analog?

I know that a few people seem to see 'rainbows' with plasmas, but I guess I'm in the overwhelming majority of plasma owners that have never once seen a rainbow on them....other than Discovery HD.

What you read about the AVM processor was in one review and that review runs counter to every other review I've ever read on the Fujitsu. But hey, I don't really put much stock in reviews to begin with....but I do put all my stock in what my eyes tell me.
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post #205 of 1655 Old 10-26-2006, 12:22 PM
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I will also say that if SEDs are going to relay on image retention for their selling point (based on the new plasmas that will be out by that time), they'll sell about a half dozen.

"Sell about a half dozen". What are you implying?. Are you intimating that Auditor55 is going to engage in SED hoarding?.
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post #206 of 1655 Old 10-26-2006, 12:33 PM
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I'm quite board with plasma and LCD.


you don't say!?!?


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post #207 of 1655 Old 10-26-2006, 12:44 PM
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"I was hoping the LED backlights would consume less power, not more. LED lighting is used now in place of incandescent in things like the tail lights of hybrid cars. LED bulbs to replace CFL bulbs is often talked about as well.'

Sadly, LEDs power pigs vs. the CCFLs used in existing TFT-LCDs.

"You call the fill factor of LCD "horrendous", but compared to what? "

I'm not sure what the fill is on current TFT panes, but on HTPS LCD microdisplays its 50-60% (my best Googling indicates the big flat panels are in the same universe). On SXRD projection sets it's 93-94%. DLP is around 90%.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #208 of 1655 Old 10-26-2006, 12:46 PM
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"well, that's a given, or at least, more obvious to me the closer you get to a plasma, the exact degree dependent on it's native resolution, of course. I don't really notice it on LCDs though, hence, my confusion about LCDs supposed fill factor problem. I assume you guys are saying that even if LCD might be better than plasmas in this regard, it still could be better?"

Yes, that's what I'm saying at least. Plasma fill factor is even more horrendous than LCD, where I use horrendous as an objective measure of the plausible (if not the the currently practical).

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #209 of 1655 Old 10-26-2006, 12:51 PM
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gotcha. thanks rogomaestro.


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post #210 of 1655 Old 10-26-2006, 01:06 PM
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I think SONY needs to invest in sed. Sxrd and lcd is a dead end imo.
Toshiba? I would never buy no toshiba crt tube. Even with current crt technology toshiba cant make the picture look as good as sony XBR can.. Sony needs to get in the ball game with sed. They already avoided plasma which was a mistake..

SED is a technology that Sony sold most of the rights to Toshiba. Sony had a fab in the US called Candesent. They spent hundred of millons trying to get a similar technology to work. In the end they closed it down and sold off most of the patents.

Word is that they still maintain a small R&D facility that still looks at ways to produce this type of display.
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