LCD or Plasma? Plasma or LCD? and why those Black Bars? Discuss it here only Please - Page 5 - AVS Forum
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post #121 of 1451 Old 01-05-2007, 07:39 AM
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Thanks!
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post #122 of 1451 Old 01-05-2007, 11:46 AM
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Thanks to those who have had time to take a look at and respond to my previous post. I need to make an edit, with regards to my pros and cons. I went out and picked up a universal S-Video cable that works for a variety of systems (SNES was the one I had in mind, since that was the only older system I tested that had weird graphical glitches on the LCD). To my surprise (and pleasure), the S-Video cable eliminated those problems on the LCD altogether - so that is no longer a 'con' for LCD.

My re-edited list now looks like this:

LCD pros:
-higher resolution, so things in general are a bit more detailed
-no concern about IR/burn-in (I realize this issue on Plasmas is mostly a non-issue nowadays, but I must admit a slight concern at least)
-anti-glare screen. not a huge issue, but there is a difference between the two
-pc input is nice to have, as it frees up a component input and allows me to upconvert everything to 1080p on my XBox 360

LCD cons:
-response time is somewhat noticeable - I tested various games and, while there is a degree of blur on both Plasma and LCD, Plasma was less noticeable
-black levels - not too bad, but can detract a bit, especially compared to plasma (blacks just seem more natural and dark in the 'right' way on a plasma..)
-SD content, in general, looks a bit more washed out

Plasma pros:
-overall more natural look to people, environments, etc., though this is debatable based on settings for both TVs
-SD content seems a bit brighter, more crisp - this seems to vary tho
-no response time issues in comparison to LCD

Plasma cons:
-slightly lower resolution, which results in a little loss of detail
-no pc input (not a big deal, unless I want to upconvert XBox 360 DVDs beyond 480p)
-potential for IR/burn-in due to gaming (again, I realize this isn't much of an issue anymore)
-light reflections can be an issue sometimes, especially considering my set up (not many different places to put my lights)

Again, thanks to all who have read my previous post as well as this one. I'm still not quite sure, but taking care of that classic gaming concern on the LCD has just made my decision harder! It seems the biggest issue will be response time vs. detail. When playing 360 games, side by side, the edge went to LCD due to a bit more detail and clarity. I realize it's not really possible to have it all, as both technologies have their limitations. This is similar to choosing your favorite kid (or cat, since I have no kids)! Any further comments and such would be appreciated.

To dr0s: regarding the off-angle viewing. It seems like this Samsung model has no noticeable washout problems when viewing from the sides (I keep my energy saving level on 'low'). I was sitting pretty far off to the side last night while a friend was watching directly in front. I did move around a bit and couldn't notice much of a difference (nor could he, when we switched seats). I know they claim to have a 178 degree viewing angle for this LCD and I can say from viewing both the LCD and Plasma that they are very comparable regardless of your viewing angle.

Take care!
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post #123 of 1451 Old 01-07-2007, 07:02 PM
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Hello all, just want to add my two cents here. I have a Pioneer 50 inch Plasma, that im guessing i have had for about three years? My particular model has a dvi input which i use for my computer, which displays at a dot by dot resolution..sweet desktop. I also have an xbox 360, gamecube and Wii all hooked in. We game ALOT......i have NEVER had any sort of problem with IR at all as far as gaming goes, and we play for hours, pc and console....BUT, i will tell you the biggest problem i have seen is with the Network Logos that are completely static in the corner of the picture....THATS what you need to worry about.
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post #124 of 1451 Old 01-07-2007, 09:03 PM
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Are you able to scale the computer screen size? Or are you stuck at the TV's native resolution? How does it look?
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post #125 of 1451 Old 01-08-2007, 07:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzyboy View Post

BUT, i will tell you the biggest problem i have seen is with the Network Logos that are completely static in the corner of the picture....THATS what you need to worry about.

Is this still an issue with current generation displays? If so (and I imagine it would be), how does one fix it? Is there an option on the display itself to 'reset' the picture or do you need to run a special DVD of some sorts?
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post #126 of 1451 Old 01-08-2007, 12:01 PM
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I was originally concerned about buying a plasma because I do game on it. I bought a Vizio 1 and a half years ago and I've had zero issues with burn in. I do occaisionally get some Image Retention but it goes away quickly. If I game for a couple days straight without TV in between I'll run the "image cleaner" function on the Vizio just to be safe.

Burn in has truly been a non-issue for me.

The killer issue with LCD for me was the lag - I could visibly notice the blur when watching football on the LCD screens in the stores. That was just a deal killer for me.
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post #127 of 1451 Old 01-08-2007, 08:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phalanx28 View Post

Is this still an issue with current generation displays? If so (and I imagine it would be), how does one fix it? Is there an option on the display itself to 'reset' the picture or do you need to run a special DVD of some sorts?

I just bought a new plasma. Initially, I was concerned about burn-in issues because of all the myths flying around the internet. Well, it looks like it's a non-issue (for me anyways)! I've played video games/left news on for many hours on end. No burn-in whatsoever! Anything that happens is temporary and is quickly gone with 1 hour of the "white wash" anti burn-in feature.
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post #128 of 1451 Old 01-09-2007, 11:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WarriorNine View Post

Thanks to those who have had time to take a look at and respond to my previous post. I need to make an edit, with regards to my pros and cons. I went out and picked up a universal S-Video cable that works for a variety of systems (SNES was the one I had in mind, since that was the only older system I tested that had weird graphical glitches on the LCD). To my surprise (and pleasure), the S-Video cable eliminated those problems on the LCD altogether - so that is no longer a 'con' for LCD.

My re-edited list now looks like this:

LCD pros:
-higher resolution, so things in general are a bit more detailed
-no concern about IR/burn-in (I realize this issue on Plasmas is mostly a non-issue nowadays, but I must admit a slight concern at least)
-anti-glare screen. not a huge issue, but there is a difference between the two
-pc input is nice to have, as it frees up a component input and allows me to upconvert everything to 1080p on my XBox 360

LCD cons:
-response time is somewhat noticeable - I tested various games and, while there is a degree of blur on both Plasma and LCD, Plasma was less noticeable
-black levels - not too bad, but can detract a bit, especially compared to plasma (blacks just seem more natural and dark in the 'right' way on a plasma..)
-SD content, in general, looks a bit more washed out

Plasma pros:
-overall more natural look to people, environments, etc., though this is debatable based on settings for both TVs
-SD content seems a bit brighter, more crisp - this seems to vary tho
-no response time issues in comparison to LCD

Plasma cons:
-slightly lower resolution, which results in a little loss of detail
-no pc input (not a big deal, unless I want to upconvert XBox 360 DVDs beyond 480p)
-potential for IR/burn-in due to gaming (again, I realize this isn't much of an issue anymore)
-light reflections can be an issue sometimes, especially considering my set up (not many different places to put my lights)

Again, thanks to all who have read my previous post as well as this one. I'm still not quite sure, but taking care of that classic gaming concern on the LCD has just made my decision harder! It seems the biggest issue will be response time vs. detail. When playing 360 games, side by side, the edge went to LCD due to a bit more detail and clarity. I realize it's not really possible to have it all, as both technologies have their limitations. This is similar to choosing your favorite kid (or cat, since I have no kids)! Any further comments and such would be appreciated.

To dr0s: regarding the off-angle viewing. It seems like this Samsung model has no noticeable washout problems when viewing from the sides (I keep my energy saving level on 'low'). I was sitting pretty far off to the side last night while a friend was watching directly in front. I did move around a bit and couldn't notice much of a difference (nor could he, when we switched seats). I know they claim to have a 178 degree viewing angle for this LCD and I can say from viewing both the LCD and Plasma that they are very comparable regardless of your viewing angle.

Take care!



I'd say another pro/con for lcd and plasma would be price per inch. sony's 46" lcd xbr2 is about ~3500 and pioneer's 5070 plasma is about ~2500 (rough estimates from shopping the internet)
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post #129 of 1451 Old 01-09-2007, 03:02 PM
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I'm buying my plasma in approx 2 months but I wanted to post my father's experience with the lack of burn-in that everybody's worried about. He owns 2 Hitachi plasmas (42" & 55") and runs them both on Dish satellite with the DVR. After everything I've read I cringed everytime he would pause the TV and leave the room for several minutes and up to 10 minutes at a time and never think twice about it. He hasn't seen any burn-in at all and told me he's left it paused for a considerably longer amount of time and has no worries of it happening in the future with what he's experienced so far.
He's of the opinion that the manual doesn't say anything about "breaking in" your plasma so why should he bother and I can tell you that both sets look phenomenal after being in normal use for approx 6 months (ALOT of HD programming).
All that being said, if you didn't read any of the AVS forums and were completely oblivious to the potential hazards, real or imagined, you'd probably enjoy your set-up alot more. I guess for him ignorance is bliss and it's worked out great thus far. However, I for one will be breaking in my plasma "properly".
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post #130 of 1451 Old 01-09-2007, 10:35 PM
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Sony 46XBR2 or pio 5070 or pio 5016...I can't decide. I'll be watching from about 9 feet, no gaming, mainly primetime and sports. 1080P for some reason seems to really attract me (thinking of the future I guess) Then the pio5070 is awesome but how much better than the pio5016 being sold at Costco? Am I getting hung up on 1080P for no reason?
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post #131 of 1451 Old 01-09-2007, 11:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smokeymo View Post

Sony 46XBR2 or pio 5070 or pio 5016...I can't decide. I'll be watching from about 9 feet, no gaming, mainly primetime and sports. 1080P for some reason seems to really attract me (thinking of the future I guess) Then the pio5070 is awesome but how much better than the pio5016 being sold at Costco? Am I getting hung up on 1080P for no reason?

If you are thinking of the 5016, you can get it for FREE if you shell out the dough for the 1080p PRO-FHD1 50"
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pn...920404,00.html

Jeff


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post #132 of 1451 Old 01-10-2007, 05:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smokeymo View Post

Sony 46XBR2 or pio 5070 or pio 5016...I can't decide. I'll be watching from about 9 feet, no gaming, mainly primetime and sports. 1080P for some reason seems to really attract me (thinking of the future I guess) Then the pio5070 is awesome but how much better than the pio5016 being sold at Costco? Am I getting hung up on 1080P for no reason?

Probably. From 9' with a 50" screen, you'll need eagle eyes to spot the resolution difference. Trained professions have extreme difficulty spotting the difference between 768p & 1080p at anything over 1.5 times the screen size with 1080i source material. Throw in any compression your cable company does & you won't see the difference. If you've got a HD disk player and a high quality disk and pull your chair up, you might see a difference in resolution.

And even if you do sit closer, resolution is #4 on the ISF list of most important things to best PQ (contrast, color saturation, color accuracy then resolution).

I don't know much about the 5016, there are some posts comparting the 5070 and 5016 on the plasma board if you search. Some of the forum sponcers recently posted significant price drops on the 5070. You might start to see the 5016s pop up on ebay now that pioneer is giving them away.
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post #133 of 1451 Old 01-10-2007, 05:49 AM
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I have to think someone would be blind not to notice the difference between 720P and 1080p, on a 50".. at 9ft.

Hell, there's a noticable difference between my XBOX360 running 1080p on my 46" LCD as opposed to my 768 Plasma.

The XBOX can run native on the LCD, but gets de-interlaced and scaled to fit the plasma.

Plasma still looks good, but I certainly can see the difference..

Oh, and both the Sharp and Samsung LCDs have blacks every bit as good as my Pany TH50 Plasma. contrast ratio is pretty close too.

Plasma Flicker was driving me insane, so I had to move to the LCD.. I was expecting an overall "worse" picture.. but have been pleasantly surprised, as I've found the LCD pretty much equal to my eyes with regard to PQ... once you average out the various strengths and weaknesses.

I'm not "anti-plasma" My Plasma looked great, if I wasn't so "sensitive" to it..

I'm just how amazed how good the right LCD can look.

I think most of the top names in LCDs will have their "negatives" sorted out in the next year or two.

120 frame rates, 4ms and lower response times, high contrast ratios, 10, 14 bit + colour, ect..

In the end, it just means more choices for us.
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post #134 of 1451 Old 01-10-2007, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by vidguy_1 View Post

I have to think someone would be blind not to notice the difference between 720P and 1080p, on a 50".. at 9ft.

you are calling a lot of very knowledgable people blind.
take a look at these articles:
http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-6449_7-...-1.html?tag=ms
http://blog.hometheatermag.com/geoff...061080iv1080p/
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post #135 of 1451 Old 01-10-2007, 02:27 PM
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What concerns me is that with the pace of progress it wouldn't be long before 1080P would be a must have and I won't be able to say it wasn't on the radar screen when I purchased my set. Just a thought.
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post #136 of 1451 Old 01-10-2007, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by aviguy View Post

you are calling a lot of very knowledgable people blind.
take a look at these articles:
http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-6449_7-...-1.html?tag=ms
http://blog.hometheatermag.com/geoff...061080iv1080p/


Well, I must be extra, extra special then.. because having had both displays.. I can surely see the difference.

To be completely fair.. if all you want to do is watch TV or movies.. then perhaps 1080p is not that important.

King Kong looked pretty good on either the Plasma or LCD

However, if you like video games, or use a computer.. then 1080p is a major plus.

Consider this:
1:Most HD content off air seems to be 1080i
2: Blue-Ray and HD-DVD content is 1080 (at least what I've seen)

So, a 768 set has to de-interlace and scale.. ALL scaling will produce artifacting.

How noticable will that be? Depends on the scaler and the person.

But as in all things electronic, the best signal path is the one of least resistance.. or the least processing.
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post #137 of 1451 Old 01-10-2007, 07:52 PM
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I have the Sam lns4095d. I wanted to use one of my component slots for the Wii cable so I decided to switch my Comcast STB to HDMI. Now I have the black bars on the left & right side of my tv for non-HD channels and I can't get it to stretch. It looks great with HD, but non-HD is driving me nuts. I even tried to switch back to component and I can't get it to work for that anymore either. Any ideas??
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post #138 of 1451 Old 01-11-2007, 05:29 AM
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Originally Posted by jayceeC View Post

I have the Sam lns4095d. I wanted to use one of my component slots for the Wii cable so I decided to switch my Comcast STB to HDMI. Now I have the black bars on the left & right side of my tv for non-HD channels and I can't get it to stretch. It looks great with HD, but non-HD is driving me nuts. I even tried to switch back to component and I can't get it to work for that anymore either. Any ideas??

You can connect Super Video cable for SD broadcast and switch between the inputs. Or you can try and have the Comcast box do some conversion for you. Look in the menu and see if you have that option.
I find that with my setup, 503cmx and SA8300, the super video connection works best.
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post #139 of 1451 Old 01-11-2007, 05:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jayceeC View Post

I have the Sam lns4095d. I wanted to use one of my component slots for the Wii cable so I decided to switch my Comcast STB to HDMI. Now I have the black bars on the left & right side of my tv for non-HD channels and I can't get it to stretch. It looks great with HD, but non-HD is driving me nuts. I even tried to switch back to component and I can't get it to work for that anymore either. Any ideas??

I have seen this once and I hope this helps. I had component then switched to HDMI and strange things happened(sync problems, bars, wrong resolutions). I then unplugged the HD DVR STB and when I plugged it back in and went through the configuration from scratch it worked perfectly. May not be your problem but it was mine.

Only takes a minute to try.
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post #140 of 1451 Old 01-11-2007, 08:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aviguy View Post

You can connect Super Video cable for SD broadcast and switch between the inputs. Or you can try and have the Comcast box do some conversion for you. Look in the menu and see if you have that option.
I find that with my setup, 503cmx and SA8300, the super video connection works best.

Unfortunately, that's what I'm doing now. I'm using the S-Vid. The problem is that there's a very noticeable difference going down to S-Vid from Component. Guess I don't have too much of a choice though! I tried going through setup and just unplugging. Nothing has worked.
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post #141 of 1451 Old 01-11-2007, 10:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jayceeC View Post

I have the Sam lns4095d. I wanted to use one of my component slots for the Wii cable so I decided to switch my Comcast STB to HDMI. Now I have the black bars on the left & right side of my tv for non-HD channels and I can't get it to stretch. It looks great with HD, but non-HD is driving me nuts. I even tried to switch back to component and I can't get it to work for that anymore either. Any ideas??

Using HDMI or Component you "should" be able to change the picture size to WIDE FIT. You can either go through the menu or use the P.SIZE button on your remote. With S-Vid you should be able to use ZOOM 1 or ZOOM 2. One thing I did see in the manual was "Wide fit does not support all external devices". All this came from the manual pg. 43. Also, make sure your Comcast STB is set to output 16:9.
Samsung LN-S4095D Owners Manual

Jeff


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post #142 of 1451 Old 01-12-2007, 09:50 AM
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[quote=Kr8z1]Using HDMI or Component you "should" be able to change the picture size to WIDE FIT. You can either go through the menu or use the P.SIZE button on your remote. With S-Vid you should be able to use ZOOM 1 or ZOOM 2. One thing I did see in the manual was "Wide fit does not support all external devices". All this came from the manual pg. 43. Also, make sure your Comcast STB is set to output 16:9.

Yeah, I checked the manual to make sure that wasn't a problem, but the wide fit option wouldn't come up. Zoom1 & 2 came up for S-Vid. When I switched to HDMI or Component, only the 16:9 or 4:3 option was selectable. I too saw that external clause and suspected the Comcast STB. The only puzzling part was why it was working before on my Component but not anymore!! I had a Comcast guy here working on my internet connection and he showed me how to get the user settings to stretch the picture. It doesn't look as good as it did before, but it's still better than the black bars.

Thanks all!!!
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post #143 of 1451 Old 01-12-2007, 02:00 PM
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I'm also going back and forth on LCD vs Plasma. I think I would prefer getting a plasma, but here's my situation. It cannot be larger than 40 inches. We just got a new entertainment center and the center TV space is 41".

My problem is that I can't find any 40" plasmas! I can find them smaller and I find them larger, but not at exactly 40". LCD, no problem. So can anyone comment on this? Am I just being totally blind to the plethora of 40" plasmas out there? :P
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post #144 of 1451 Old 01-12-2007, 02:06 PM
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you might want a 37". You want to make sure there is some space for tv ventilation.
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post #145 of 1451 Old 01-12-2007, 02:10 PM
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covert, make sure to read the specs of the model you consider! TV sizes are measured as the diagonal on the visible/screen part - not the frame, speakers etc! 37" TVs are often around 33-34 inches wide, so it is feasible a 42" might fit your 40" wide space!

*ashu*
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post #146 of 1451 Old 01-12-2007, 05:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by covert7 View Post

I'm also going back and forth on LCD vs Plasma. I think I would prefer getting a plasma, but here's my situation. It cannot be larger than 40 inches. We just got a new entertainment center and the center TV space is 41".

My problem is that I can't find any 40" plasmas! I can find them smaller and I find them larger, but not at exactly 40". LCD, no problem. So can anyone comment on this? Am I just being totally blind to the plethora of 40" plasmas out there? :P


I was in a very similar boat! The best plasma that is only 40" wide is the 42 inch panny 42px60u. Other panny models are wider. I don't love the "duck feet" silver as compared to the sony kdl40v2500 I had next to it but the set has a very nice picture and fit perfectly in 40 inches. Price now on that set ixs excellent for what you get.
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post #147 of 1451 Old 01-13-2007, 06:41 AM
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Just to be sure I looked at my manual and it is 40.2 inches wide.
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post #148 of 1451 Old 01-13-2007, 09:58 PM
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[quotel]http://hdguru.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/11/hdtv_distance_chart.pdf[/url], might help you out a bit on your viewing distance question. [quote]

Nobody much mentions this, but the restricted viewing angle curse that afflicts LCD flat panel and all rear-projector HDTVs is much more of a negative factor in a small room than a big one.

If you're standing at a 45 or 50 degree angle 20 feet away from an LCD or rear projector the picture is still pretty good (though not perfect, you need to be dead center vertically or horizontally for that). At eight or ten feet away from the screen the picture at that angle will range from barely acceptable to totally unwatchable at those angles.

Plasmas look the same at all visible angles which, to me, is crucial in all environments. In a small room it should be a critical factor for anybody.

Hint: While you're in the showroom, pretend you've lost your remote five minutes before the Super Bowl and need to make a color adjustment manually (in other words, with the buttons usually mounted on the side of the set) ... try it first with a plasma and than with an LCD and see what you get.
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post #149 of 1451 Old 01-15-2007, 04:57 PM
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[quotel] At eight or ten feet away from the screen the picture at that angle will range from barely acceptable to totally unwatchable at those angles.

This certainly depends on the set, and might be false for the majority of new brand-name sets. In our living room, one of our sofas is 10 feet away from our LCD at a whopping 70 degrees off center. When we have guests over we let them have the dead-on sofa, and we sit on the side, and both contrast and saturation are fine from that sofa, only marginally worse than dead-on. On the other hand, my brother-in-law's LCD starts looking washed-out at 15-20 degrees off center. - DR
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post #150 of 1451 Old 01-16-2007, 07:43 PM
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What concerns me is that with the pace of progress it wouldn't be long before 1080P would be a must have and I won't be able to say it wasn't on the radar screen when I purchased my set. Just a thought.

As with computers, you can always wait another year and get a better display at a lower price. The only thing I can tell you is that you will miss a year of great entertainment. At some point, you just have to say that it is worth it to jump in now. I got my Fujitsu 3 years ago for about 2X what is costs today. To me, the entertainment I've gotten for the past 3 years was well worth it.
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