Official "1080p Vs. 720p" Thread Discussion - Page 25 - AVS Forum
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post #721 of 1468 Old 09-27-2007, 11:26 AM
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I have read this very long thread over a period of 2-3 days . I am in the mkt for a 50 inch plasma. I am upgrading from a CRT HDTV MM61110 monitor .The plasma panel will be located in a fairly bright family room . The viewing couch is about 10 ft from the Display. As I am a retiree this will be my only plasma TV purchase for a quite some time. Most of my viewing material is SD cable TV and SD DVD maybe some HD material when more becomes avail. From info I garnered in this thread , it looks like my best bet is 720p or 768p. I would like to consider either a Panny or Pioneer. All the new models from Panny are 1080p. I 've made my rounds at BB , Ckt city etc. however all the source material is I believe is 1080i so how to decide whether Pioneer or Panny is better for the source material that I usually view ? Finally which coating is better ...reflective or antiglare ? Tks very much
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post #722 of 1468 Old 09-27-2007, 02:26 PM
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Cajieboy: is your Sony 40XBR800 still running--now there's a display technology that knows how to do black right!

In my younger days I would have been less diplomatic about LCD's shortcomings--nowadays it's more fun to gently twist knives in people's backs!

What HDGuru's findings really show is that there is alot of resolution that we're still not getting but it seems with the Kuros that the days of black levels that suck are over.

Sportflyer: I'll give you some great advice that you won't hear very much here.

Kuros are great but cost a bazillion dollars.

Panasonic Plasmas just aren't as good this year.

If there's anyway you could wait until April by then Panasonic will have 1080p Plasmas that while not quite as good as Pioneer will certainly be better in the contrast ratio department and won't cost a bazillion dollars.

And if you're set on 768p by then you'll get even a better set than today at a better price.

In my opinion the only way to really get decent SD is with FIOS and the Oppo 983 should be the last greatest upconverting DVD player ever built.

But do one thing that I always tell everyone--buy the biggest Plasma you can afford. If you do you won't regret it!

At 10 feet I'd get either a 65-inch 1080p set or a 58-inch 768p set.

Given the current prices of a Panasonic 65-inch 1080p set or a Pioneer 60-inch Kuro set--that's why I say wait til next year--but of course if the money is no problem then I would say buy 60-inch Kuro now.

At 10 feet I don't think a 50-inch Kuro would make sense.
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post #723 of 1468 Old 09-27-2007, 03:01 PM
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65 in is just too large , maybe a 58inch 768 set is more the solution. Would Panny or anyone else be making 768 next year? I thought everyone is pushing 1080p even tho at 10 to 12 ft it did not make much sense to many viewers . Yes I am also thinking Oppo 980H to complement the HD for SD DVD's. Tks
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post #724 of 1468 Old 09-27-2007, 03:47 PM - Thread Starter
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solid advise from Artwood.

sportflyer - Yes, there will most likely be 768p sets for at least another generation. If the cost difference is still what you would consider to be substantial enough and you don't anticipate any future changes to your 10 to 12ft seating circumstances.. the 768p still might be worth considering, especially if you upgrade every few years. If you plan to keep it longer term, then the pendulum might start swinging back towards a 1080p model, especially if you are in the 60" territory.



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Originally Posted by cajieboy View Post

Yeah, I knew this when quoting Art, and know he "gets it right" when it comes to video tech and HT...and I think Art knows I know if you catch my meaning.

oh, I guess I missed detecting the signs of your subtle secret handshake.


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post #725 of 1468 Old 09-27-2007, 08:48 PM
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I intend to keep it for about 7 years at least. Seating position is fixed at 10 -12 ft from panel with no way to change ( Wife factor) . But I thought SD TV and DVD would look awful in a 1080p set and 728p may be more acceptable under my viewing conditions.
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post #726 of 1468 Old 09-28-2007, 10:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artwood View Post

Cajieboy: is your Sony 40XBR800 still running--now there's a display technology that knows how to do black right!

In my younger days I would have been less diplomatic about LCD's shortcomings--nowadays it's more fun to gently twist knives in people's backs!

What HDGuru's findings really show is that there is alot of resolution that we're still not getting but it seems with the Kuros that the days of black levels that suck are over.

Sportflyer: I'll give you some great advice that you won't hear very much here.

Kuros are great but cost a bazillion dollars.

Panasonic Plasmas just aren't as good this year.

If there's anyway you could wait until April by then Panasonic will have 1080p Plasmas that while not quite as good as Pioneer will certainly be better in the contrast ratio department and won't cost a bazillion dollars.

And if you're set on 768p by then you'll get even a better set than today at a better price.

In my opinion the only way to really get decent SD is with FIOS and the Oppo 983 should be the last greatest upconverting DVD player ever built.

But do one thing that I always tell everyone--buy the biggest Plasma you can afford. If you do you won't regret it!

At 10 feet I'd get either a 65-inch 1080p set or a 58-inch 768p set.

Given the current prices of a Panasonic 65-inch 1080p set or a Pioneer 60-inch Kuro set--that's why I say wait til next year--but of course if the money is no problem then I would say buy 60-inch Kuro now.

At 10 feet I don't think a 50-inch Kuro would make sense.

Art, good advice. Yes, I still have my Baby Huey 40XBR, and it displays pristine SD & HD w/blacks still unattainable in any other competing video tech. Oh, and did I mention it's 1080i so no problemo w/upscaling/downscaling deinterlacing most all broadcast video sources. My original plan was/is to hang onto the 40XBR (Still looks brand new as I take care of my gear) for 6-8 yrs. before a major HT upgrade. That plan is still on track for either 2009 or 2010, and I've been very impressed w/the new Pioneer 60" Kuros...we'll see. Size DOES matter, and I want the biggest baddest frack'in flat panel I can cram into my 10' viewing distance when I upgrade...65"er would fit nicely too!
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post #727 of 1468 Old 09-28-2007, 12:21 PM
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I think 2008 will be the major improvment year for Panasonic.

2009 should be the magical year! 85-inch plasma may arrive in 2009 and by then Pioneer and Panasonic may both produce 70-inch Plasmas with great pictures that don't cost a zillion dollars.

If most of the Plasma makers go out of buisness and if the world continues to buy LCD Pioneer and Panasonic will both be producing such fantastic plasma that not even the LCD worshipers will be able to admit that their sets aren't the greatest.

By then Plasma may become the 60-inch and larger choice for anyone who wants a decent picture. All the uninformed will be buying 52-inch LCDs that will look like junk!
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post #728 of 1468 Old 09-28-2007, 09:43 PM
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Any chance of getting a real blind test (sounds odd dosen't it)by any of the industry mags or maybe even the manufacturers if the belive their glass is that good??

I've seen things you wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate.
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post #729 of 1468 Old 09-29-2007, 05:24 PM
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One of the reasons why plasma enjoyed less blur is because of their native lower resolutions. 720P is less sensitive to minor micro camera shifts, and retain their sharpness in cases like this.

An example of what I am talking about is a the wrinkles on a face....and how they look when a person is being filmed. The 720s are crisper.

NOTE: Everything I am talking about is for 40". Of course when you go 50 and up you want a higher resolution if you can. 46 is a case by case for sure.
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post #730 of 1468 Old 09-30-2007, 09:19 AM
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Quote:


One of the reasons why plasma enjoyed less blur is because of their native lower resolutions. 720P is less sensitive to minor micro camera shifts, and retain their sharpness in cases like this.

So If I upgrade my 50px75u 720 Plasma to a 1080 plasma I will get motion Blur?
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post #731 of 1468 Old 09-30-2007, 12:24 PM
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You shouldn't
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post #732 of 1468 Old 09-30-2007, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artwood View Post

....I read somewhere that Hitachi and Panasonic are working on jointly producing an 85-inch Plasma.

Now the price of that set may be stratospheric--but come next April Panasonic will come out with a next generation 65-inch Plasma that will cost far less than the 60-inch Pioneer Kuro.

Artwood: I found support for the Hitachi/Panasonic Partnership to produce
85" and 103" displays.

Hitachi and Panasonic Strengthen Plasma TV Business Partnership

Quote:


Cross-supply of plasma display panels

-Panasonic will start to supply Hitachi with 103-inch plasma panels in fiscal 2007.
-Hitachi will start to supply Panasonic with 85-inch plasma panels in fiscal 2008.

However, I can't find any support for your assertion that Pansonic will release a next generation 65" Plasma in April 2008 that will cost far less than the 60-inch Pioneer Kuro. In fact, Panasonic, in the last few weeks, released the Panasonic TH-65PZ750U (MSRP: $8,999) which replaced last year's model (TH-65PX600U).

I'm looking for a 65"-70" display ... so if you have a link or evidence to support your assertion regarding the release by Panasonic of a next generation (after the 65PZ750U generation) 65" plasma next Spring, I would like to review it.

I've never seen a next generation released that quickly. It would certainly stifle sales of the TH-65PZ750U ... if word got out. It would also be great news for me and others in my situation. I can wait 7 months. Thanks.
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post #733 of 1468 Old 10-01-2007, 01:56 PM
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A smaller screen will always look sharper when compared to a larger screen at the same distance. If you had been watching a 3 1/2 year old 50" and upgraded to the new TV, you would have been blown away.
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post #734 of 1468 Old 10-01-2007, 02:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WW1 View Post

A smaller screen will always look sharper when compared to a larger screen at the same distance. If you had been watching a 3 1/2 year old 50" and upgraded to the new TV, you would have been blown away.

This is true for analog viewing but not for HD.

The measure of a man's character is what he would do if he knew he never would be found out.
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post #735 of 1468 Old 10-02-2007, 05:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buckeye911 View Post

This is true for analog viewing but not for HD.

This is ESPECIALLY true for HD. Just take a trip down to your closest HDTV showroom and stand the same distance from different size TVs.

The pixels are smaller and denser with smaller screen size and a 720p screen has the same number of pixels whether it's 26" or 52".
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post #736 of 1468 Old 10-02-2007, 07:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WW1 View Post

A smaller screen will always look sharper when compared to a larger screen at the same distance. If you had been watching a 3 1/2 year old 50" and upgraded to the new TV, you would have been blown away.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buckeye911 View Post

This is true for analog viewing but not for HD.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bubbalou32 View Post

This is ESPECIALLY true for HD. Just take a trip down to your closest HDTV showroom and stand the same distance from different size TVs.

The pixels are smaller and denser with smaller screen size and a 720p screen has the same number of pixels whether it's 26" or 52".

I agree that this is not just a phenomenon with analog signals. Unfortunately, it's also true with HD.
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post #737 of 1468 Old 10-02-2007, 10:44 PM
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Trying to read throughout the entire thread i got lost, so i will ask the blatant question: what is the best bet, right now, for a 50" 1080p Plasma in the 2-3 K and 3K+ range?

If this is too much off topic, I apologize, but if you still want to answer, please send me a PM.

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post #738 of 1468 Old 10-03-2007, 09:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BFG33 View Post

Trying to read throughout the entire thread i got lost, so i will ask the blatant question: what is the best bet, right now, for a 50" 1080p Plasma in the 2-3 K and 3K+ range?

If this is too much off topic, I apologize, but if you still want to answer, please send me a PM.

Answered my own question: 2-3K: TH-50PZ750 Pana / 3K+: Pioneer Elite KURO PRO-110FD

Thx.

illegitimi non carborundum
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post #739 of 1468 Old 10-12-2007, 01:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sportflyer View Post

I intend to keep it for about 7 years at least. Seating position is fixed at 10 -12 ft from panel with no way to change ( Wife factor) . But I thought SD TV and DVD would look awful in a 1080p set and 728p may be more acceptable under my viewing conditions.

If you get a good set (Pio or Panny) then they'll both look great with SD material, no matter whether they're 768 or 1080. I've done side-by-side comparisons of Pioneer Kuro's (both 768 and 1080 50") and Panasonic 50" 1080p. All are very capable of displaying really good SD pictures (provided the source material is decent, that is!).

If money is not a problem, then buy 1080 - if you'd rather spend the additional $$ on something else, then buy 768. You won't notice the difference at your viewing distance if you get a good plasma.
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post #740 of 1468 Old 10-12-2007, 03:04 PM
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There's one thing I don't get. Prevailing wisdom (and some science) is that, given about a 7-8' viewing distance or greater, there is no visible difference between the two resolutions to the human eye. Personally, I think that's nonsense. I hate, hate, hate seeing the pixels of a digital panel, coming as I do from a very high quality HD RPTV where there is no such thing. On my brand new 50" 1080p plasma set (Panasonic TH-50PZ750U), from 8' away, I can easily detect the pixels and it does bother me a little. The picture is stunning without a doubt, but the digital matrix of the image is certainly noticable. Given the same size screen on a 768P panel, the pixels would be about twice as large and I imagine this would have driven me crazy. As it is I'm wishing I could put a bit more distance between me and the set so my eye won't resolve the pixels. In short, 1080P all the way.

Incidentally, I watched a couple of well-mastered, widescreen Standard Definition DVD's (Farscape and the new Dr. Who) and was simple floored by the quality. I found myself judging the main character in Farscape for having too much makeup on, something I could not detect on my previous HDTV.
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post #741 of 1468 Old 10-13-2007, 09:37 AM
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Will people still be worshiping 480p DVDs in the year 2020?
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post #742 of 1468 Old 10-13-2007, 04:25 PM
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woops, wrong forum
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post #743 of 1468 Old 10-13-2007, 09:34 PM
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Please see attached picture for the room setup.....the little recess in the wall is where the TV will go, main seating position will be about 10' back.

Would there be a noticeable difference at that distance between 720p and 1080p, with a 40-46" LCD? Main uses are DirecTV and 360 - maybe BRD or HD-DVD in the future, but not right away.

I am considering either a Samsung 40" 720p, or if I go to 46", Samsung or Sony 1080p. But maybe that line of thinking is nonsense?

What would you recommend? Price difference would end up being about $650 or more, for 6" extra and 1080p instead of 720p.
LL
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post #744 of 1468 Old 10-14-2007, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aktick View Post

Please see attached picture for the room setup.....the little recess in the wall is where the TV will go, main seating position will be about 10' back.

Would there be a noticeable difference at that distance between 720p and 1080p, with a 40-46" LCD? Main uses are DirecTV and 360 - maybe BRD or HD-DVD in the future, but not right away.

I am considering either a Samsung 40" 720p, or if I go to 46", Samsung or Sony 1080p. But maybe that line of thinking is nonsense?

What would you recommend? Price difference would end up being about $650 or more, for 6" extra and 1080p instead of 720p.

That looks far enough that *most* humans won't see the difference...in resolution. The thing I find strange is how infrequently conversion and scaling comes into this discussion. What are you primarily going to be watching? Because if it's anything from 1080i on up, then you are going to be downconverting to 768. And that's not just an issue of resolution, it's an issue of downconversion. And downconversion is a bad thing. In fact, depending on the quality of your chip, it can be a downright horrible thing.
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post #745 of 1468 Old 10-14-2007, 06:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artwood View Post

.... come next April Panasonic will come out with a next generation 65-inch Plasma that will cost far less than the 60-inch Pioneer Kuro.

I'm guessing that you're retracting this statement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DOBE View Post

....I can't find any support for your assertion that Pansonic will release a next generation 65" Plasma in April 2008 that will cost far less than the 60-inch Pioneer Kuro. In fact, Panasonic, last few month, released the TH-65PZ750U (MSRP: $8,999) which replaced last year's model (TH-65PX600U).

I'm looking for a 65"-70" display ... so if you have a link or evidence to support your assertion regarding the release by Panasonic of a next generation (after the 65PZ750U generation) 65" plasma next Spring, I would like to see it.

I've never seen a next generation released that quickly. It would certainly stifle sales of the TH-65PZ750U....

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post #746 of 1468 Old 10-15-2007, 05:15 PM
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I have been rethinking my position on 50 inch displays with prices dropping and I am leaning towards a Panny 58PH10UK . Will my sitting distance of 10 -12 ft be too close for this panel since this is only 768p and the screen is rather large ? Tks
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post #747 of 1468 Old 10-16-2007, 03:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sportflyer View Post

I have been rethinking my position on 50 inch displays with prices dropping and I am leaning towards a Panny 58PH10UK . Will my sitting distance of 10 -12 ft be too close for this panel since this is only 768p and the screen is rather large ? Tks

Nope - rather too far away

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post #748 of 1468 Old 10-16-2007, 06:10 AM
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The Danish magazine Gear has done a little blind test of two Samsung LCD TV's (40 or so, I think). One is 768, one is 1080, both showing Pirates on bluray.

The test definitely has it's flaws, as it seems like the screens weren't calibrated - the colors are different, so they might be out-of-the-box, and resolution is certainly not the only thing that separates them.

You can watch the test here: http://media.ncom.dk/index.php/video/id=535

Even if you don't understand Danish, you can still get what's going on. None of the test subjects immediately go that's better! or something like that - rather it seems difficult for them to decide. When they do pick one over the other, they base their choice on things like better contrast or color saturation etc., not sharpness or anything like that. Some choose the 768 screen as the best one, some choose the 1080. All agree that the 1080-screen (which costs about double of the 768) is not worth the extra money!

My interpretation of the test is this: when forced to choose between two things that are essentially equal, about half will pick the one, half the other, simply because it's basically a random choice.

Or to put it differently - 1080 doesn't matter a whole lot on smaller (<60") screens!
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post #749 of 1468 Old 10-16-2007, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sportflyer View Post

I have been rethinking my position on 50 inch displays with prices dropping and I am leaning towards a Panny 58PH10UK . Will my sitting distance of 10 -12 ft be too close for this panel since this is only 768p and the screen is rather large ? Tks

If you agree that the human vision system is about 1 minute of arc for luminance (and it is generally agreed that this is the case), then the following chart might be of help:



Perhaps because I've been staring at computer monitors most of my life I've become more adept at noticing the digital matrix of pixels, or perhaps because I use a rather strong prescription of reading glasses, I feel I am able to resolve the digital matrix (pixels) of flat panel displays more readily than the average human. So I add an extra foot or so of distance from the screen to this chart. My pet peeve is being able to see this matrix, so for this reason I actually switched from the 720p to the 1080p camp. That, and the fact that I'd rather not EVER have to downscale. Lastly, a 720p set is always showing a scaled image, either up or down. 720p sets are 768, after all (although there are a tiny number of exceptions, most of them obsolete).
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post #750 of 1468 Old 10-16-2007, 06:42 PM
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This chart says that from a purely resolution standpoint 58 in Panel 720p is more than enough when viewing distance is around 10 -12 ft. We should therefore concentrate on other parameters that contribute to PQ.
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