Official "1080p Vs. 720p" Thread Discussion - Page 31 - AVS Forum
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post #901 of 1468 Old 05-31-2008, 09:16 PM
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That article (Sirius argument for 1080p) has been posted on this thread before, and I don't really buy it. Sure, you can see Sirius, but you can't make out any detail in it - its just a bright blob. And that's the whole point - the detail is lost past a certain distance.

To illustrate, I made a simple white 1920x1080 image, with some very small (5 or 6 pixels wide) black squares and circles. I also made a couple slanted lines, three pixels long each. Display it on your TV, and you can easily see for yourself that the ability to discern the actual shape of the object goes away after a certain distance. Far enough away, they all look like unidentifiable, YET VISIBLE, blobs. So what if they are visible - you can't make out what in the heck they are. The detail is wasted past a certain viewing distance.

At the end of the day, the proof is in the viewing. As many people have pointed out, including professional reviewers conducting double blind tests, 1080p does not look significantly better than 720p past a certain distance. As many others have stated, if you do see a difference, it is attributable to another aspect of picture quality (contrast ratio, scaling ability of the TV, color saturation, etc). For example, I just finished watching "The Rookie" on ABC-HD, from my 1080p Sharp, and it looked awesome, at any viewing distance.

I wish I frequented this forum before I purchased my TV. When I did, 1080p was first and foremost on my mind. Now I realize that there are other aspects of PQ vastly more important, especially since I sit 8-10 feet away from a 46" TV. In hindsight, I wish I got a 768p Kuro plasma. Oh well, next time.

 

pixels.zip 0.517578125k . file
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post #902 of 1468 Old 06-01-2008, 06:50 PM
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The pixels are smaller than 720 now that I see 1080p on my own new set, at a distance I can't see a difference, only up close.

"the evidence before B/TQE at this time suggests
that the best delivery format would be 720p"

http://www.ebu.ch/en/technical/trev/trev_308-hdtv.pdf
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post #903 of 1468 Old 06-01-2008, 08:33 PM
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720p Plasmas are brighter and thusly will last longer, having more phospor material in each individual subpixel.

Vizio VP322 Plasma / Vizio GV42LF LCD / Denon 2200 Silicon Image DVD / Panasonic S97 Faroudja Genesis DVD / Oppo 970HD Mediatek DVD / Oppo 983H Anchor Bay DVD / Panasonic LX-600 Laserdisc / Aiwa MX100 Multi-region VCR / JVC S7600 S-VHS / PS2 / Sega Genesis / Nintendo SNES / Roku 2 XS & HD-XR / Realistic STA-90 Reciever / Realistic Minimus 7 / Antennacraft G1483 Hoverman / Belden 7915A RG6 / Channel Master 7777 Titan 2 UHF/VHF / Panasonic AX-200u / Optoma Graywolf 92" / Draper Luma 92"
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post #904 of 1468 Old 06-01-2008, 08:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sole_Survivor View Post

The pixels are smaller than 720 now that I see 1080p on my own new set, at a distance I can't see a difference, only up close.

You bought a 1080p TV?
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post #905 of 1468 Old 06-02-2008, 03:46 AM
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See my post a few back!
The new sets display non native 1080p signals.

"the evidence before B/TQE at this time suggests
that the best delivery format would be 720p"

http://www.ebu.ch/en/technical/trev/trev_308-hdtv.pdf
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post #906 of 1468 Old 06-02-2008, 04:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sole_Survivor View Post

See my post a few back!
The new sets display non native 1080p signals.

1080p displays have been able to display non-native signals from the very beginning. That is what many, many people were trying to tell you back the early days of this thread.

I must say I am not surprised that you ended up getting a 1080p display. I am also now not surprised that, now, it appears you are going to try and justify this decision by saying it is somehow fundamentally better than all the 1080p displays that were on the market back when all the debating took place in this thread.
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post #907 of 1468 Old 06-02-2008, 03:18 PM
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No .... It's native 768p, I know you're going to come back & tell me it really 768, just read my post a few back, the one with the photo and lets agree to disagree on this one.
I see a big difference in pixel size up close with blu ray in 1080p, 1080i, & 720p.

"the evidence before B/TQE at this time suggests
that the best delivery format would be 720p"

http://www.ebu.ch/en/technical/trev/trev_308-hdtv.pdf
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post #908 of 1468 Old 06-02-2008, 05:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sole_Survivor View Post

No .... It's native 768p, I know you're going to come back & tell me it really 768, just read my post a few back, the one with the photo and lets agree to disagree on this one.
I see a big difference in pixel size up close with blu ray in 1080p, 1080i, & 720p.

Ok - so you didn't get a 1080p display, you just got a new 768p one. Gotcha.

Probably yields a better pic than your old one simply because its a new display with much better tech.

As far as the pixel size, well yeah, we'll agree to disagree there.
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post #909 of 1468 Old 06-02-2008, 06:12 PM
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The pixels change size some new technology LOL
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post #910 of 1468 Old 06-03-2008, 05:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sole_Survivor View Post

I think manufactures are holding back the truth, reason why they don't respond to the answer.
We know for a fact that the sets did not display 1080i, so they were converted to 768p by the sets scalier. Before they did not accept 1080p, but now that they do I see a difference in PQ, they appear to be smaller pixels and I switched the BD to 720p.
As I got close to the set I see the difference. I focused on one little piece of lint, changed the format from 1080i to 1080p using the blu ray video format feature on the remote , even paused the picture so I could see the piece of lint become more fuller so to say, and color more vivid.
In 720, the color stays about the same, but up close, real close, if you pause the picture and look at face detail like 1 foot away from the set, you clearly see smaller objects, more beard stubble for example, come into focus. Got second opinions, all agreed.

The reason why 480i signals don't look as good is because they are bigger & fewer. Your PC monitor is fixed pixel display, why is it when you change the resolution to 1280x1024 does the picture look different? Why does the BD look different when I change it to 1080p than 720p, same reason, the pixel size changes inside the same space.


From http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messa...79/284986.html
Change of the pixel size in the same space.

rutlian asked

"is that means I am watching 1080p/60 in my mits?"

PIXEL SIZE & COUNTS WITHIN THE SAME SIZE DISPLAY!

I know I'm going against the grain here but I don't believe in everything I read & I don't believe Oswald was the lone gunman either.
Example........
The only time I got an answer from Sony about "NATIVE" was when I had a CRT. It said in the manual this set does not accept a native 720p signal.
It says it will down scale it to 480p.
OK, I put the HD box in 720p, ABC, then I put the box in 480p, you can clearly see the world of difference, most of all, even the size of the screen menu got smaller when the box was in 720p compared to 480p. Then went to 1080i, you can see the difference in the smoother colors in 720p.
Finally I got Sony techs, they said, your set is displaying 720p because your set top is a extra terrestrial non native source. So this is what I mean when I stress the term native.
You wont find that anywhere on the net though.
If you put BD in 1080p & if your set is accepting that signal, smaller pixels in the same space, you bypass the native tuners of the monitor with BD even if your set is 768. Native means it scales all native signals without extra terrestrial sources. If your using the sets native interal tuner, it will get 1080i and scale it to 768, it will even do that with a BD or HD DVD or set top 1080i signal because the set can't produce the interlace format. However when you feed it non native 480p you're getting 480p and when you feed it 1080p you're getting 1080p.

The new 768 sets are now designed to accept and process the 1080 progressive non native signal.
That's why you're seeing the difference rutlian.
There is difference with 1080i & 1080p with blu ray is right.
So why get 1080p sets?
With native 1080p sets it takes the 1080i signals and scales them to the native display of the set, 1080p, where the 768 set will scale 1080i to 768p, neither set can process interlace signals and converts it over to the native resolution of the monitors internal scailer.

Do not go by what the manual says or what people tell you here, they can be deceiving, just like it said with my CRT, will not accept "NATIVE" 720p, but I got 720p from it and Sony confirmed that. The entire internet told me CRT sets can't display 720p because of their misunderstanding of what native relates to.
You have the same thing when it's says 3dYC filters. That only pertains to the sets native tuner, or when using, composite, or RF connections. The sets native 3dyc filter system is bypassed when you use HDMI, component, or DVI, the sets native 3dYC filter is then bypassed. When you feed these new 768 sets set non native progressive signal, the sets internal scalier is bypassed.

WHAT????

Your cut and past is interesting but you are implying that the SAME display can display different resolutions and that is NOT what the article is saying not even close. They are showing different displays with different resolutions at the same size demonstrating that with a smaller res on a bigger panel you could see the pixel structure (SDE screen door affect) with larger res you get a smoother image and greater image detail.

Did you read the article?

I tell you what take a magnifying glass and look at the cells on your LCD do they change size or shape when you send 1080 compared to 720?

The reason that 1080p looks better then 720 could (most likely) be that your TV downscales better then you player especially 1080 to 720. When you send 720, the 1080 is down scaled by the player (to 720) then up-scaled by the TV (768), scaling 2 times and tossing out 48 rows of info it could use.

jackc04 answer to rutlian is correct but I do find it strange that his HD1000U is accepting 1080p60 from the samsung 1500. Maybe the 1500 is sending 24p.
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post #911 of 1468 Old 06-03-2008, 02:12 PM
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LOL! I didn't cut & paste, just provided a photo link.
I didn't say that is what the article said, I'm using that graph to illustrate, I said you won't find that anywhere on the net, it was the Sony tech that told me why my CRT was displaying 720p when the manual says it will not display a native 720p signal. The CRT set accepts the native 720p signal, but downscaled it to 480p, however when I used the set top it was non native, and that is why my set was then displaying 720p.
NON NATIVE signals, go ahead and believe everything you read in the manuals. They told me what native meant. Native means by the TV itself, blu ray is a non native source, so it doesn't scale it to 768p. Native 768p means it scales the native signals to 768p.

The reason why it looks a little better is because the disk is 1080p. 1080p looks better than 1080i as well.

Answer me a question why does your fixed pixel monitor on your PC change when you adjust the resolution?

"the evidence before B/TQE at this time suggests
that the best delivery format would be 720p"

http://www.ebu.ch/en/technical/trev/trev_308-hdtv.pdf
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post #912 of 1468 Old 06-03-2008, 02:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sole_Survivor View Post

OK, you, learn what native means!
The reason why it looks a little beetter is because the disk is 1080p.
Answer me a question why does your fixed pixel monitor on your PC change when you adjust the resolution?


I know very well what native res means, you do not. A digital fixed pixel display only displays its native res, what every that is. It scales all non native res to its native res that's it, its not hard to understand. The pixels do NOT change size or shape. Like I said you can see the cells on your TV do they change size or shape?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixed_pixel_display

Yes its 1080 on a BD but in your case its being scaled to 768 as your display ONLY displays 768.

Of course it changes when I select a different res on my PC it scales the source to what every I set it at but the display only displays its native res (1280x800 in my case)

Did you read your link?? I have a hard time believing you did.
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post #913 of 1468 Old 06-03-2008, 02:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sole_Survivor View Post

LOL! I didn't cut & paste, just provided a photo link.
I didn't say that is what the article said, I'm using that graph to illustrate, I said you won't find that anywhere on the net, it was the Sony tech that told me why my CRT was displaying 720p when the manual says it will not display a native 720p signal. The CRT set accepts the native 720p signal, but downscaled it to 480p, however when I used the set top it was non native, and that is why my set was then displaying 720p.
NON NATIVE signals, go ahead and believe everything you read in the manuals. They told me what native meant. Native means by the TV itself, blu ray is a non native source, so it doesn't scale it to 768p. Native 768p means it scales the native signals to 768p.

The reason why it looks a little better is because the disk is 1080p. 1080p looks better than 1080i as well.

Answer me a question why does your fixed pixel monitor on your PC change when you adjust the resolution?

You do know that a CRT is very different from a digital display right?

You "meaning" of native is gibberish.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_resolution
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post #914 of 1468 Old 06-03-2008, 02:42 PM
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tower101, have you read this entire thread? Just curious. I think if you do you may just find that you want to let this one be.
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post #915 of 1468 Old 06-03-2008, 02:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post

tower101, have you read this entire thread? Just curious. I think if you do you may just find that you want to let this one be.

All 900+ post LOL no

But you are right cheers
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post #916 of 1468 Old 06-04-2008, 07:01 PM
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Wikipedia, can't argue with that source. Edit yourself page.
Believe what you want, but once again you fail to realize that everywhere on the net & the manual said my old CRT did not show native 720p, but I got 720p didn't I?
So all the S&*t don't mean much to me, I go by what my eyes see. Native means " a local inhabitant" ..."of the indigenous inhabitants of a place" In other words occurring in the region of the monitor naturally. Blu Ray is outside of the indigenous inhabitants of it's origin because it is a non native source.
I also read somewhere where they said, it scales all signals to 1080p so it doesn't matter what input signal you have going into the set.
Keep believing their BS, but I knew the set was displaying 720p with the set top, because it changed big time when I put it in 480p, the manual said it will downscale native 720p to 480p, since the set top was non native, the native scalier was bypassed.
Yes I know CRT is different, but this is what they mean when they say NATIVE in regard to a monitor, I know this for a fact.
I'm not going to tell you again, believe what you want.

My LCD PC monitor is 1280x1024, but I have it set to 1152 x864, do I have a true 1280x1024? Why does the picture change when I set it to the higher resolution? Because the pixel size.

"the evidence before B/TQE at this time suggests
that the best delivery format would be 720p"

http://www.ebu.ch/en/technical/trev/trev_308-hdtv.pdf
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post #917 of 1468 Old 06-06-2008, 03:24 PM
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How many years after the last 720p set is produced will this thread die?
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post #918 of 1468 Old 06-11-2008, 01:09 PM
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I also am new at this game of which t.v. to pick and have read many of the thread post within and appreciate them all but all I want is the bottom line which is better for general t.v. viewing with a 32-40" lcd. Y'all have made it very confusing for me.

Thanks for listening.
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post #919 of 1468 Old 06-11-2008, 03:11 PM
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If you are using your tv for gaming primarily, 720p is fine, since most games for 360 and PS3 are only rendered in 720p (if that).
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post #920 of 1468 Old 06-11-2008, 03:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Dick View Post

I also am new at this game of which t.v. to pick and have read many of the thread post within and appreciate them all but all I want is the bottom line which is better for general t.v. viewing with a 32-40" lcd. Y'all have made it very confusing for me.

Thanks for listening.

Res is only a part of what makes a good image. Get a TV that has over all good specs, reviews and looks good to you.

Almost all high end TVs are 1080, so if you want all the top end features you end up with 1080.
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post #921 of 1468 Old 06-11-2008, 05:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EscapeVelocity View Post

720p Plasmas are brighter and thusly will last longer, having more phospor material in each individual subpixel.

I would like some proof on that. Also who will really keep their tv for 20 years to find out. I sure won't.

Bears... Beets... Battlestar Galactica.
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post #922 of 1468 Old 06-11-2008, 07:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sole_Survivor View Post

Wikipedia, can't argue with that source. Edit yourself page.
Believe what you want, but once again you fail to realize that everywhere on the net & the manual said my old CRT did not show native 720p, but I got 720p didn't I?
So all the S&*t don't mean much to me, I go by what my eyes see. Native means " a local inhabitant" ..."of the indigenous inhabitants of a place" In other words occurring in the region of the monitor naturally. Blu Ray is outside of the indigenous inhabitants of it's origin because it is a non native source.
I also read somewhere where they said, it scales all signals to 1080p so it doesn't matter what input signal you have going into the set.
Keep believing their BS, but I knew the set was displaying 720p with the set top, because it changed big time when I put it in 480p, the manual said it will downscale native 720p to 480p, since the set top was non native, the native scalier was bypassed.
Yes I know CRT is different, but this is what they mean when they say NATIVE in regard to a monitor, I know this for a fact.
I'm not going to tell you again, believe what you want.

My LCD PC monitor is 1280x1024, but I have it set to 1152 x864, do I have a true 1280x1024? Why does the picture change when I set it to the higher resolution? Because the pixel size.


Ah, the Pixel size NEVER changes. The RESOLUTION can change but the pixels are the pixels are the pixels are the... I think you get the idea. Your argument is like saying that on a sunny day a Tiger is a Tiger but (somehow it changes to a Lion in the rain). Obviously, this is impossible. In the rain, that same exact Tiger is now simply a WET Tiger. His stripes don't change. Pixels are the same thing. A manufacturer can build a screen with X pixels or they can build one with 100X pixels.

You may want to read about RESOLUTION. That is the setting you are changing. The pixels in ANY set are not "changeable".

From time to time, the Gene Pool could use a little chlorine ...
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post #923 of 1468 Old 06-11-2008, 07:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Decepticon07 View Post

I would like some proof on that. Also who will really keep their tv for 20 years to find out. I sure won't.

Going on 7 years with my Toshiba Plasma and I think I was a "fairly" early adopter. So far, it looks like it did the day I bought it. I doubt that will change in another 13 but if I am still on here and this thread is still alive, I will come back and post my observations...

From time to time, the Gene Pool could use a little chlorine ...
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post #924 of 1468 Old 06-13-2008, 03:08 AM
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I know what you're saying, but Its hard to explain. Changing the resolution on HD DVD is the same thing, I can clearly see 1 foot away from my 768p set, how the detail in the pours of someones face gets smaller from 720p to 1080p, than I can see the color fade a bit when I go to 1080i. The input resolution is changing...yes if that is what you are saying. We know how big 768x1366 pixels are inside the space of 50 inches. When you change the resolution you change the size of the image. This is why it looks so different when I go from 720p to 1080p a foot away from the set, the same way your PC LCD monitor changes going from 800x600 to 1280x1024. Changing the resolution is changing the input pixel count (this has nothing to do with the native dafault function/scailer. Native means when the set gets say a 1080i OTA signal with no set top box, it scales it to 768x1366, where a native 1080p set would scale it to 1080x1920, since you're not controlling the resolution nor can you change it. But with HD DVD & BD it's not a native default, you control the resolution because it's outside of the indigenous inhabitants of the monitors origin. On a 50 inch 768x 1366 monitor, the pixels size is about 0.9 mm, which equals 0.039 inches. That is the default size. When you change the resolution to 1080p you re-shape the input signal at a smaller size into the set, HD DVD is outside of the indigenous inhabitants of it's origin because it is a non native source. You can clearly see detail get smaller and sharper up close, it is no longer 0.039 inches. Again if the 768p 50 inch set gets a 1080 signal within the inhabitants of it's origin (native / no set top, no DVD, just the set itself) then it scales it to 0.039 inches. "Native" 1080p... etc, is in regard to the indigenous inhabitants, the default functions of the monitor on it's own. Remember when the sets all starting having the built in ATSC tuner, some would advertise, has native built in HD tuner, no need for set top. They are talking about native functions, not HBO or Showtime. To see HBO you are not using the sets native tuner, you are using a HD tuner that is not part of the monitors indigenous inhabitant. Same thing with when you see 3DYC filter. That is the native function of the set. The 3DYC filter is bypassed when you connect S video, HDMI, DVI or component connections.
Whenever you see the description of features they are usually in regard to the native features.
Native HD tuner resolution, it's native scalier, it native 3DYC filter. Native functions get bypassed with non native sources, e.g, hdmi cables, HD DVD, BD.

"the evidence before B/TQE at this time suggests
that the best delivery format would be 720p"

http://www.ebu.ch/en/technical/trev/trev_308-hdtv.pdf
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post #925 of 1468 Old 06-21-2008, 09:23 AM
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Comparison -- Need some recommendations.

I'm debating between buying a Panna TH50PX80U and the PZ80U. I don't game and will be viewing the set from approximately 15 feet.

Any recommendations or comments?
Thanks
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post #926 of 1468 Old 06-21-2008, 01:14 PM
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At 15 feet the PX model will be fine. 1080p will not gain you anything.

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post #927 of 1468 Old 06-23-2008, 08:00 AM
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I just picked up my Panasonic TH-50PX80U last Saturday from Sears - they had an awesome deal..too good to pass on @ $1166.00 after taxes.

Can someone tell me if the diff btw 720P v. 1080P is substantially noticeable on a 50 inch plasma?

I am very new to this big screen TV area.

Thnx.
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post #928 of 1468 Old 06-23-2008, 08:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxolute View Post

I just picked up my Panasonic TH-50PX80U last Saturday from Sears - they had an awesome deal..too good to pass on @ $1166.00 after taxes.

Can someone tell me if the diff btw 720P v. 1080P is substantially noticeable on a 50 inch plasma?


Thnx.

If you sit within 5 feet, definitely!
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post #929 of 1468 Old 06-23-2008, 02:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allargon View Post

If you sit within 5 feet, definitely!

My viewing distance is about 10ft from the TV...if this is the case, then I shouldn't really see much difference btw the two resolutions?
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post #930 of 1468 Old 06-26-2008, 09:05 PM
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For me, I'm sitting 7 ft. and racing in my Playseat at about 5 feet. According to the chart, ideal for 50" 1080p 78" (6 1/2 ft.), 50" 720p ideal distance is over 117" (almost 10 ft.). I don't have the best vision in the world, so I need stuff to be a bit bigger. I have a bit of a problem reading the ESPN crawler on my 44" RCA DLP. I'm looking at getting a 46". Ideal 1080p seating there is 72" (6 ft) and 720p is a whopping 108 inches away!

I saw a drastic difference today at 3 feet away from a 1080p display when I had my PS3 there to test. I switched from 720p (my RCA's best res) to the 1080p for the PZ80U and there was a significant difference.

Could I live with 720p on a big 50" sitting 7 ft. away and racing from 5" away? Sure, I had my tape measure with me when I first began this marathon shopping expedition (refund for the RCA is coming any day now). The 50" 720 looked fine at 4 ft. and at 6 ft. That is until we were at a Sears store that had the 50PX80 along side a Sammy 50" 1080p. At those same distances (my environment), you bet your sweet petunias there was a difference between 720p and 1080p, and that was on the loop they have feeding their display models. BUT, is it worth the extra $320 (check is for $1500) to go up to the 50PZ85U? I don't know. It kinda depends on what the keeper of the wallet says

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Reply OLED Technology and Flat Panels General

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