Samsung 81 series lcd vs. 8g kuro - Page 4 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
post #91 of 797 Old 08-27-2007, 07:56 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
D-Nice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Columbia, SC
Posts: 14,956
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 33 Post(s)
Liked: 222
That "darker" look is caused by the improved black levels. If the 81 series LD LEDs were doing what we were lead to believe, it would have that same "darker" look.
D-Nice is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #92 of 797 Old 08-27-2007, 08:36 PM
Member
 
garfield17's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 98
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldcband View Post

The experience what I've seen is what your used too. If you have a plasma there going to impress you more. Same with LCD if thats what you own, your used to it more than what a plasma looks like.

I saw the new Pio's 5010 and 6010 and the Sammy 5271 and the 52XBR all side by side on Sunday. The Pio's have a new look to them. There very smooth looking but what I didn't like there darker than past models. Seem to me the colors aren't as vibrant. The Pio 5080 looks better to me.

When it comes to TV's its what you prefer, not what everyone else likes. The 52XBR was head and shoulders above all the rest for me.

I think I can speak for a lot of ppl on this forum and just in general...We're desperately trying to decide whether we'll be happier with a Pio 5010, a Sam 5271/81, or a 52XBR4. They all sound like great TV's from all the reviews. I've seen a couple in person and it's hard to judge between the LCDs at least. Many of the comparisons are minor things or ones that only affect specific situations. I was even comparing things like, I think the XBR4 frame would look better in the room. The Sammy's look like they have a pivoting base, which would be helpful. Picture wise, I have two LCDs and I wouldn't mind seeing the deeper blacks/richer colors to be my movie watching TV. The costs (from BB at least) are pretty close for all of these. Of course, I could buy a PS3 or other BR player for the price diff between the XBR4 and the Kuro.

Some other posted put it well...enjoy the viewing and not just the shopping, so sometimes you just gotta pull the trigger.

that being said...which one should I buy!!!
garfield17 is offline  
post #93 of 797 Old 08-27-2007, 08:45 PM
AVS Special Member
 
spincut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,079
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Spincut, certainly not compared to any LCD of this era! To my eyes the Pioneer plasma whites are white without any eye fatigue and I love to watch in total darkness. But everyone has different levels of tolerance to eye fatigue, so I can't tell you 100% you'll be fine. What I can tell you 100%, is that the Pioneers and plasmas in general will be easier on the eye than a typical LCD that has not been greatly tamed.

Hm, well thats the problem, it's hard to tell in stores, and someone has to be very familiar with what i'm talking about to say that they didnt get the problem with plasmas, and not just a fan of plasma performance in general.

All things equal i probably would like to have a Samsung 81, but the XBR2 i had was almost unwatchable in the dark (unless i turned the light censor on, which dimmed it below the manual backlight level when the lights were off, making it watchable, but alot dimmer than it should be).

also my old sony flatscreen CRT did glare a little bit when i watched it in the dark, but my eyes adjusted, they simply could not adjust with the LCD, even when i tried dimming it.

I am looking at a panasonic 700u since it's the only plasma that comes in 1080p at 40", it's a shame a pioneer doesnt, although i dont know how they really compare in terms of burn in handling, although alot of people also relegate panasonics as the top black and performing plasma maker out there.
spincut is offline  
post #94 of 797 Old 08-27-2007, 08:57 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Elemental1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Zion
Posts: 3,315
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by spincut View Post

I am looking at a panasonic 700u since it's the only plasma that comes in 1080p at 40", it's a shame a pioneer doesnt, although i dont know how they really compare in terms of burn in handling, although alot of people also relegate panasonics as the top black and performing plasma maker out there.

UNless you are sitting very close, 1080p is a non issue at 40"

My HT

In the words of English philosopher Edmund Burke, ÂAll that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.Â
Elemental1 is offline  
post #95 of 797 Old 08-27-2007, 08:59 PM
AVS Special Member
 
spincut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,079
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elemental1 View Post

UNless you are sitting very close, 1080p is a non issue at 40"

but unless i buy another tv next year, then it is an issue to me and something i want to have, especially if i have to get a plasma over an LCD to solve that glare issue, if it even really does.
spincut is offline  
post #96 of 797 Old 08-27-2007, 09:22 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Elemental1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Zion
Posts: 3,315
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by spincut View Post

but unless i buy another tv next year, then it is an issue to me and something i want to have, especially if i have to get a plasma over an LCD to solve that glare issue, if it even really does.

I am curious as to why you want or think you need 1080p @ 40"???

My HT

In the words of English philosopher Edmund Burke, ÂAll that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.Â
Elemental1 is offline  
post #97 of 797 Old 08-27-2007, 09:34 PM
AVS Special Member
 
johnnybrulez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,680
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elemental1 View Post

I am curious as to why you want or think you need 1080p @ 40"???

I was thinking the same thing.

I don't know what I am doing! AHHHHHHH!!!!
johnnybrulez is offline  
post #98 of 797 Old 08-27-2007, 09:35 PM
AVS Special Member
 
greenland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 5,220
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 93 Post(s)
Liked: 205
Quote:
Originally Posted by spincut View Post

but unless i buy another tv next year, then it is an issue to me and something i want to have, especially if i have to get a plasma over an LCD to solve that glare issue, if it even really does.

Why not figure out what distance you will be watching from for the foreseeable future, and then check them out in the store at that distance. Be sure to get the settings for the Kuro for store viewing from the Pioneer Kuro thread on the Plasma forum. Make sure that the store will allow you to adjust the settings, or else you will get the wrong impression of how the Pio 4280 actually looks. By the way, you keep mentioning 40inch set. Both the Pioneer and Panasonic are 42inch models.
greenland is offline  
post #99 of 797 Old 08-27-2007, 10:43 PM
AVS Special Member
 
spincut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,079
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elemental1 View Post

I am curious as to why you want or think you need 1080p @ 40"???

I basically already said why i wanted to have it in my last post. Otherwise i would be getting an LCD set and it has this feature, and i want it to be lasting the long term into when a bulk of the content i have will be in that upper resolution, as i said i'm not buying this TV just to last me the year which is the mindset alot of people have it seems and i think a bit ahead (not to mention this isnt even a matter of 1080i vs. 1080p, since aside from the panasonic i beleive most other sets at that size or only 720/768p)

I'm not buying this tv for this upcoming year only, and irregardless of the relevancy to you of the 1080p standard right now i want to have it in the set i buy, and every LCD at this point i look at has it, but only one plasma has, and unfortunately that is not a pioneer though.

-and i am aware of the 2" difference, not sure why they do that, i just get tired of noting the size difference so i just say 40" since i was more looking at LCD's (which as far as i'm aware are all sized in 40" except maybe one line of them).
spincut is offline  
post #100 of 797 Old 08-28-2007, 12:40 AM
AVS Special Member
 
CruelInventions's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Chicago-ish
Posts: 4,570
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 57 Post(s)
Liked: 199
spincut, here is the basic point you might be missing in all of this:

Given your user needs (correct me if I'm wrong, but.. you're not a 'lean in close to the tv' gamer nor a 'computer hooked up to the screen' user), even if you decide to keep the panel for the next 15 years and even if every single content source magically converted to 1080p tomorrow... HAVING 1080P AS A PANEL FEATURE WILL PROVIDE YOU WITH NO VISUALLY DISCERNIBLE BENEFIT WHATSOEVER IN A PANEL OF THAT RELATIVELY SMALL SIZE.

Now, unless you are anticipating a present or future seating arrangement in which you'll be sitting within 4 to 5 ft. of the panel or you anticipate eventually using it as a computer monitor.. then maybe, consider a 1080p model in a 40"/42" size. For anything else, or any viewing distances beyond that.. there really is no point to it.

and btw, blu-ray/hd-dvd will still look great & be worth it, better than standard dvd. More data bits built into your content source, the better your image will be. It just won't look any better on the 1080p panel than on the 720p panel in that 40" size.

Mourning the disappearing usage of the -ly suffix. Words being cut-off before they've had a chance to fully form, left incomplete, with their shoelaces untied and their zippers undone. If I quote your post (or post in your thread) without comment, please check your zipper.
CruelInventions is online now  
post #101 of 797 Old 08-28-2007, 07:44 AM
Senior Member
 
SpeedDemon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Washington
Posts: 305
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
When can we expect to actually see the Samsung 81 series in stores?
SpeedDemon is offline  
post #102 of 797 Old 08-28-2007, 07:52 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
D-Nice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Columbia, SC
Posts: 14,956
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 33 Post(s)
Liked: 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpeedDemon View Post

When can we expect to actually see the Samsung 81 series in stores?

They are in stores now.
D-Nice is offline  
post #103 of 797 Old 08-28-2007, 08:59 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Elemental1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Zion
Posts: 3,315
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by spincut View Post

I basically already said why i wanted to have it in my last post. Otherwise i would be getting an LCD set and it has this feature, and i want it to be lasting the long term into when a bulk of the content i have will be in that upper resolution, as i said i'm not buying this TV just to last me the year which is the mindset alot of people have it seems and i think a bit ahead (not to mention this isnt even a matter of 1080i vs. 1080p, since aside from the panasonic i beleive most other sets at that size or only 720/768p)

I'm not buying this tv for this upcoming year only, and irregardless of the relevancy to you of the 1080p standard right now i want to have it in the set i buy, and every LCD at this point i look at has it, but only one plasma has, and unfortunately that is not a pioneer though.

-and i am aware of the 2" difference, not sure why they do that, i just get tired of noting the size difference so i just say 40" since i was more looking at LCD's (which as far as i'm aware are all sized in 40" except maybe one line of them).

SOmebody else already cleared this up for you, I see.
I also see another has cleared up your 40" reference problem.
This house is clear.

My HT

In the words of English philosopher Edmund Burke, ÂAll that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.Â
Elemental1 is offline  
post #104 of 797 Old 08-28-2007, 09:30 AM
Senior Member
 
SpeedDemon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Washington
Posts: 305
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

They are in stores now.

I went to BestBuy the other day and wasn't able to find them. Are they supposed to be widely available?

Have you seen one yet, D-Nice, and do you have an oppinion on them and how you feel that they compare to the Kuro's?
SpeedDemon is offline  
post #105 of 797 Old 08-28-2007, 09:35 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Valnar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Cleveland, OH
Posts: 1,808
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by CruelInventions View Post

spincut, here is the basic point you might be missing in all of this:

Given your user needs (correct me if I'm wrong, but.. you're not a 'lean in close to the tv' gamer nor a 'computer hooked up to the screen' user), even if you decide to keep the panel for the next 15 years and even if every single content source magically converted to 1080p tomorrow... HAVING 1080P AS A PANEL FEATURE WILL PROVIDE YOU WITH NO VISUALLY DISCERNIBLE BENEFIT WHATSOEVER IN A PANEL OF THAT RELATIVELY SMALL SIZE.

Now, unless you are anticipating a present or future seating arrangement in which you'll be sitting within 4 to 5 ft. of the panel or you anticipate eventually using it as a computer monitor.. then maybe, consider a 1080p model in a 40"/42" size. For anything else, or any viewing distances beyond that.. there really is no point to it.

and btw, blu-ray/hd-dvd will still look great & be worth it, better than standard dvd. More data bits built into your content source, the better your image will be. It just won't look any better on the 1080p panel than on the 720p panel in that 40" size.

I'll play devil's advocate.

I think the scaler of any given TV would be a factor. Your statement assumes a scaler can do a job as good as a native 1:1 pixel mapping, which is not true (although admittedly on a 40", it would be hard to tell).

If... and I mean if... the content of the future becomes mostly 1080, then having a screen that can natively do it would always be better than 720p downscaled.

Robert

Edit: This assumes 720 vs 1080 is the only discernable variable. Obviously a superior 720p TV will outshine a lesser 1080i/p TV.
Valnar is offline  
post #106 of 797 Old 08-28-2007, 10:04 AM
 
Auditor55's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Silicon Valley, CA.
Posts: 8,795
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 21
Quote:


There is a good owner feedback thread about the Pioneer Kuro Plasmas on the Plasma forum. There is also a very good thread that is dedicated to compiling Professional test reports and reviews, with many rave reviews already in from several technical publications.

Those are not objective view points. Mostly fanboy cult-ism and paid media hacks giving their opinions.

There is no such thing as a professional reviewer. Their opinions carry no greater weight than your own.
Auditor55 is offline  
post #107 of 797 Old 08-28-2007, 10:05 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
D-Nice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Columbia, SC
Posts: 14,956
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 33 Post(s)
Liked: 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

Those are not objective view points. Mostly fanboy cult-ism and paid media hacks giving their opinions.

There is no such thing as a professional reviewer. Their opinions carry no greater weight than your own.

hahahhahahhahha
D-Nice is offline  
post #108 of 797 Old 08-28-2007, 10:42 AM
AVS Special Member
 
johnnybrulez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,680
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

hahahhahahhahha

Muhahaha. So evil D-nice.

Honestly, I think the Samsung 81 thread is losing juice. All the enthusiasm is almost like sucked out of that thread. The same day I'm going to pick up one no less. I guess I'll chime in once I pick one up and test.

I don't know what I am doing! AHHHHHHH!!!!
johnnybrulez is offline  
post #109 of 797 Old 08-28-2007, 10:47 AM
 
Auditor55's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Silicon Valley, CA.
Posts: 8,795
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnybrulez View Post

Muhahaha. So evil D-nice.

Honestly, I think the Samsung 81 thread is losing juice. All the enthusiasm is almost like sucked out of that thread. The same day I'm going to pick up one no less. I guess I'll chime in once I pick one up and test.

Its sad to see the 8g'ers come in and ruin that thread.
Auditor55 is offline  
post #110 of 797 Old 08-28-2007, 10:50 AM
AVS Special Member
 
johnnybrulez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,680
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

Its sad to see the 8g'ers come in and ruin that thread.

I kind of agree. But this has been going on for awhile on both threads. What to do? They're 'direct' competitors on these boards. It's inevitable. Hopefully I can turn the tides, being a "Kult Member" and have something awesome to say. I have a feeling I'll be impressed, even w/ some hiccups.

I don't know what I am doing! AHHHHHHH!!!!
johnnybrulez is offline  
post #111 of 797 Old 08-28-2007, 11:13 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
D-Nice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Columbia, SC
Posts: 14,956
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 33 Post(s)
Liked: 222
Did I ruin it by laughing at sampo and weasle mentality? If so....shame on me
D-Nice is offline  
post #112 of 797 Old 08-28-2007, 11:18 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
D-Nice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Columbia, SC
Posts: 14,956
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 33 Post(s)
Liked: 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by ____ View Post

Yeah, Samsung might have fooled us big time.

This is the quote of the day.

Sampo is histerical.
D-Nice is offline  
post #113 of 797 Old 08-28-2007, 11:22 AM
Senior Member
 
tcfish19's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 316
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

Its sad to see the 8g'ers come in and ruin that thread.


Yes we should all remember the wonderful contributions you and Sampo brought to the Kuro anticipation thread. You know the one that is now locked. Can't believe anyone would ever come in and try to ruin a thread.

Upgrayedd. Which he spells thusly, with two D's, as he says, "for a double dose of this pimping".
tcfish19 is offline  
post #114 of 797 Old 08-28-2007, 11:24 AM
AVS Special Member
 
greenland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 5,220
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 93 Post(s)
Liked: 205
Reality check:

Some of the biggest supporters of the 81 are now making very skeptical comments about how limited the Samsung LED local dimming really is, and how they tried to cheap their way around paying to license the real deal. vtms and Sampo are now dumping on Samsung big time. Neither of them has been an 8th Gen supporter. The early owner reports and pictures are what are casting a pall on the Samsung 81 threads. Plasma commentators do not have the power to persuade the LCD base to turn on it. Only shoddy products, preceded by created expectations of near perfection at a high price can do that. That is the reality of the situation. If the product lived up to expectations, the threads would reflect it.
When Sampo starts taking swipes at Samsung, then you know that they have failed to deliver on what they had hyped to a fare thee well.
greenland is offline  
post #115 of 797 Old 08-28-2007, 11:35 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
D-Nice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Columbia, SC
Posts: 14,956
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 33 Post(s)
Liked: 222
More hilarious posts......How can you go from this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ____ View Post

Well that's the problem here. 81 series has no direct competitors. The market is 81 series and the rest.

to this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ____ View Post

Yeah, Samsung might have fooled us big time...

D-Nice is offline  
post #116 of 797 Old 08-28-2007, 11:38 AM
AVS Special Member
 
johnnybrulez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,680
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Did I ruin it by laughing at sampo and weasle mentality? If so....shame on me

Nah. People ruined it by pointing out faults w/ the local dimming tech. And comparing it to the top of the line plasma in an LCD forum. You know for Sampo's like evangelical local dimming flat panel ways, I kind of think it's good he's not delusional even w/ all the owner impressions. I'm thanking the stars right now. I won't be labeled a biased hack if I don't give a 'super stellar' review. Actually.. I probably still will.

I don't know what I am doing! AHHHHHHH!!!!
johnnybrulez is offline  
post #117 of 797 Old 08-28-2007, 11:42 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
D-Nice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Columbia, SC
Posts: 14,956
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 33 Post(s)
Liked: 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnybrulez View Post

You know for Sampo's like evangelical local dimming flat panel ways, I kind of think it's good he's not delusional even w/ all the owner impressions.

You know you're right. I wish he could pass that mind state to a certain delusional AVS member who still worships a long lost....but promising....tech
D-Nice is offline  
post #118 of 797 Old 08-28-2007, 11:48 AM
AVS Special Member
 
johnnybrulez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,680
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

You know you're right. I wish he could pass that mind state to a certain delusional AVS member who still worships a long lost....but promising....tech

Hahaha... oh man. That'd be nice.

I don't know what I am doing! AHHHHHHH!!!!
johnnybrulez is offline  
post #119 of 797 Old 08-28-2007, 12:47 PM
AVS Special Member
 
WaldorfSalad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Nr. Boulder, CO
Posts: 4,657
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by ____ View Post

CEATEC 2007, October. CES 2008, January. I can wait. I place my bets on Sharp and Sony. FED is also coming in 2008.

Looks like sampo or go81 (or whoever the heck he is) is having a change of heart. Whatever happened to that Samsung (81) allegiance?
WaldorfSalad is offline  
post #120 of 797 Old 08-28-2007, 12:48 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
D-Nice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Columbia, SC
Posts: 14,956
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 33 Post(s)
Liked: 222
He's pissed cause he is no longer getting that bonus check.
D-Nice is offline  
Closed Thread OLED Technology and Flat Panels General

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off