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post #1 of 183 Old 09-25-2007, 01:21 PM - Thread Starter
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http://hdguru.com/?p=187

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The results of this test (3:2 pulldown) were disappointing with only 14 out of 75 sets (just 18.66%) properly handling the signal!

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Static and Motion Resolution

A particular HDTV may resolve a stationary test signal at full bandwidth, but what happens when motion is introduced? The answer, the on-screen resolution drops. This can have a significant affect on your viewing experience, especially if you tastes tend toward sports and action.

...three distinct groups emerged from this test of the twenty 1080p displays. All displays in the top group were plasma HDTVs. They all had a static resolution of 1080 lines and a measured motion resolution of 830-880 lines, depending on the specific display. The next group consisted of microdisplay rear projectors, static measured 1050-1080 (depending on the display) while motion resolution ranged of 610-780 lines. The bottom group were all the LCD flat panels, with a static resolution of 400 (one panel) to 1080 lines and motion rez coming in at 360 lines (one set tested) to 600 lines. Three of the LCDs tested were 120 Hz models (one was the Sony KDL-46XBR4 reviewed here), all 120 Hz models had 600 lines of motion resolution.

Does not have the actual list of sets up yet

Samsung Plasma TV FAQ - read it, learn it, live it.
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post #2 of 183 Old 09-25-2007, 02:52 PM
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Looking forward to the results.
Thanks!

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post #3 of 183 Old 09-25-2007, 03:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Yeah, me too, ready to pull the trigger but now I wanna see what's up.

Samsung Plasma TV FAQ - read it, learn it, live it.
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post #4 of 183 Old 09-25-2007, 03:17 PM
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Glad this is coming out now. I'm just about to purchase a new set and keep flip-flopping between plasma and lcd.
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post #5 of 183 Old 09-25-2007, 03:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by RJonesUSC View Post

Glad this is coming out now. I'm just about to purchase a new set and keep flip-flopping between plasma and lcd.

No kidding, me too.

Samsung Plasma TV FAQ - read it, learn it, live it.
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post #6 of 183 Old 09-26-2007, 01:37 PM
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Anyone that wants lack of resolution with motion is crazy!
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post #7 of 183 Old 09-26-2007, 03:43 PM
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I agree artwood. Why would anybody want bad off angle viewing and motion blur, even with 120hz? And pay a lot more for it.
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post #8 of 183 Old 09-28-2007, 01:23 PM
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The following Panasonic press release pretty much confirms that there was a 600 line limit with moving images on LCD. It looks like Panasonic has improved this, although it doesn't say how much more than 600 lines. Looks like HDGURU was spot on with his results. And it looks like the 1st gen implementations of 120hz were not done correctly.

http://panasonic.co.jp/corp/news/off...n070809-7.html

"The new 37-inch LCD TV, TH-37LZ75, features the Full-HD IPS Alpha Panel, offering consistently clear pictures even when viewed off-center. The panel displays crisp fast-moving images, with a moving-picture resolution of over 600 lines, thanks to the new Full-HD W Speed that achieves a refresh rate of 120 frames per second, twice as fast as the typical rate. The new Full-HD W Contrast AI also gives third-dimensional appearance to images with a high 7,000:1 contrast ratio"
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post #9 of 183 Old 09-29-2007, 06:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andy sullivan View Post

I agree artwood. Why would anybody want bad off angle viewing and motion blur, even with 120hz? And pay a lot more for it.

Off angle viewing, for most, is not the big a deal. Most tier one sets are more than adequate.

IMHO resoultion and motion blur are two different creatures. Motion blur does exist but is no way near the deal killer you would infer. "The latest LCDs are not devoid of motion blur completely as plasma is, but they're fast enough to watch even the fastest of sporting events with few desultory effects." http://www.hometheatermag.com/advic.../407plasmavlcd/ .

BTW, the plasma sets tested also suffered a loss in dynamic (motion) resolution apparently not as bad as the tested LCDs. So, if a loss of dynamic resolution and motion blur are the same, wouldn't this mean that plasmas also suffer from motion blur?

As for costs, they are all over the place. A Sharp AQUOS LC-52D62U 52" LCD costs less than a Panasonic TH-50PZ700U 50" Plasma TV http://electronics.pricegrabber.com/...visions/p/197/ Yet the LCD is larger. I'm sure you can go to other sites and find the reverse.

This article is interesting. It attempts to explain the cost difference. "When it comes to the market price of a TV set, the positions of PDP and LCD TVs are inverted with pricing for PDP TVs rising above that for LCD TVs. Average market price for a 50-inch full HD PDP TV was as high as $4,453 as of the 1Q of 2007, compared with a relevant LCD TV's $3,709, according to DisplaySearch.

As reasons for the PDP TV's inverted pricing state, DisplaySearch cited factors including the high component costs needed to assemble a PDP to a TV set. PDP TVs have no other choice but using optical filters to reduce EMI and prevent reflection, as well as expensive power supply circuits that support their 180 to 200 V high drive voltage, which further result in high costs to assemble a set, said DisplaySearch.

An optical filter used in 50-inch full HD resolution models, for example, cost $104.2 (as of the 1Q of 2007). LCD TVs do not need any optical filters. A power supply circuit cost $61.5, about three times more than the LCD TV's $21.1.

Reflecting the high voltage, components around the power supply circuit in a PDP TV were also about twice more than those in an LCD TV. When building up a TV set, a PDP TV required labor costs of $203.2 for assemblies including the installation of an optical filter, more than $30 higher than that required for an LCD TV." http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english...070925/139644/
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post #10 of 183 Old 09-29-2007, 07:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andy sullivan View Post

I agree artwood. Why would anybody want bad off angle viewing and motion blur, even with 120hz? And pay a lot more for it.

ME!!! Have you seen the Samsung 81 series? Flaws and all this is TV is un friggin believable.

These are just my opinions.
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post #11 of 183 Old 10-03-2007, 08:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nmlobo View Post

Off angle viewing, for most, is not the big a deal. Most tier one sets are more than adequate.

IMHO resoultion and motion blur are two different creatures. Motion blur does exist but is no way near the deal killer you would infer.

Of course not.
Just like reflective LCD's and LCD burn in.
If your panel starts macroblocking and/or blurring when motion gets faster, you are losing resolution.
How can you say it is unrelated?

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post #12 of 183 Old 10-04-2007, 03:54 AM
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My panel does not start macroblocking and/or bluring with motion. I'm sorry if yours does.

Never said 'unrelated' I said they are two different things.......and they are.

How much 'blur' do you notice with your pdp? They lose resolution with movement as well.
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post #13 of 183 Old 10-04-2007, 07:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nmlobo View Post

My panel does not start macroblocking and/or bluring with motion. I'm sorry if yours does.

Never said 'unrelated' I said they are two different things.......and they are.

How much 'blur' do you notice with your pdp? They lose resolution with movement as well.

I don't notice ANY on mine....but every single LCD Tv I see, there it is.
Face it, HDguru hit's it on the head and LCD pushers just get offended and defensive and then pull the BIAS card.

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post #14 of 183 Old 10-04-2007, 09:11 AM
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To me off center viewing is a huge detriment to owning an LCD. As the center piece to a home theater system, good off center viewing is an absolute must. In Sound&Vision Mags latest issue they test the new Toshiba 52LX177. In the minus attribute section they say "typical limited LCD viewing angle". That kind of statement tells you that this shortcoming is expected by the pro reviewers. Expected yes, but not acceptable.
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post #15 of 183 Old 10-04-2007, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elemental1 View Post

I don't notice ANY on mine....but every single LCD Tv I see, there it is.
Face it, HDguru hit's it on the head and LCD pushers just get offended and defensive and then pull the BIAS card.

Who pulled a bias card? I must have missed reading those posts.

Macroblocking is a signal/compression issue, not related to display type. You must not have understood this. As for blur related to resolution, if this is true, pdps must blur as well since HDGuru reported that pdps also suffered resolution loss with motion.
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post #16 of 183 Old 10-04-2007, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artwood View Post

Anyone that wants lack of resolution with motion is crazy!

Thx U......I posted this article in the Plasma section on Mon. I guess I should of posted it in here b/c my thread basically went dead. But I was trying to explain to one gentleman that the motion resolution flaw is not only unique to display devices alone. That other pieces of equipment along the chain suffer from this as well.
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post #17 of 183 Old 10-04-2007, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nmlobo View Post

My panel does not start macroblocking and/or bluring with motion. I'm sorry if yours does.

Never said 'unrelated' I said they are two different things.......and they are.

How much 'blur' do you notice with your pdp? They lose resolution with movement as well.

Well I doubt alot of ppl will notice this issue b/c at the present moment there is very little 1080p live action sporting events being broadcasted. And you wont notice this flaw while watching a film b/c most films move at rate of around 24 fps.
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post #18 of 183 Old 10-04-2007, 11:53 AM
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Good point
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post #19 of 183 Old 10-04-2007, 11:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andy sullivan View Post

To me off center viewing is a huge detriment to owning an LCD. As the center piece to a home theater system, good off center viewing is an absolute must. In Sound&Vision Mags latest issue they test the new Toshiba 52LX177. In the minus attribute section the say "typical limited LCD viewing angle". That kind of statement tells you that this shortcoming is expected by the pro reviewers. Expected yes, but not acceptable.

As the "center piece to a home theater system" most people I know try to to sit pretty much in front of, or within a few degrees off center from, the screen. Here is a review on an LCD from HDTV Solutions on a JVC. "Also, the viewing angle on the LT-46FN97 was one of the best that we have seen on LCDs that we have reviewed. Most pictures on LCDs will wash out as you move off center. This JVC maintains its image quality even at fairly severe viewing angles. " http://www.hdtvsolutions.com/JVC_LT-46FN97_Review.htm I believe their chart indicates a 150 degree viewing angle.
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post #20 of 183 Old 10-04-2007, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nmlobo View Post

Who pulled a bias card? I must have missed reading those posts.

Macroblocking is a signal/compression issue, not related to display type. You must not have understood this. As for blur related to resolution, if this is true, pdps must blur as well since HDGuru reported that pdps also suffered resolution loss with motion.

Yes...just like you seem to be missing that LCD motion blur and off axis viewing.
I used the term macroblocking because it is similar to what I have seen LCD's do with fast motion but I am sure there is a more accurate term.
If you read the HDGuru article, you would know what he said...and that was the best LCD's were 120hz and even those just were not in the running vs the plasma's.
I have a 720p (768p) plasma, so it's no wonder I don't see any loss.
I guess we could say my lowly plasma resolution beats your 1080p LCD in motion resolution scenes.

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post #21 of 183 Old 10-04-2007, 12:23 PM
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Degrees of viewing angle means little to the average viewer. I know that my main viewing room is 27x15. With a couch on one side wall and a chair on the other, placed about 10' from the several 52" LCD displays I've tried, the PQ is noticeably lessened. The same goes if I lay on the floor. I haven't tried the JVC. Even the article you mention states that "MOST"pictures on LCD's will wash out as you move off center. That's a really bad thing when you can say that about most LCD's. Why would you want to buy one for your main display? Sure, maybe you can squeeze two or three people in the sweet spot but what if you have more people than that? Why bother, just get a plasma if you want a family size flat panel.
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post #22 of 183 Old 10-04-2007, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elemental1 View Post

Yes...just like you seem to be missing that LCD motion blur and off axis viewing.
I used the term macroblocking because it is similar to what I have seen LCD's do with fast motion but I am sure there is a more accurate term.
If you read the HDGuru article, you would know what he said...and that was the best LCD's were 120hz and even those just were not in the running vs the plasma's.
I have a 720p (768p) plasma, so it's no wonder I don't see any loss.
I guess we could say my lowly plasma resolution beats your 1080p LCD in motion resolution scenes.

You could but you would be incorrect.
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post #23 of 183 Old 10-04-2007, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andy sullivan View Post

Degrees of viewing angle means little to the average viewer. I know that my main viewing room is 27x15. With a couch on one side wall and a chair on the other, placed about 10' from the several 52" LCD displays I've tried, the PQ is noticeably lessened. The same goes if I lay on the floor. I haven't tried the JVC. Even the article you mention states that "MOST"pictures on LCD's will wash out as you move off center. That's a really bad thing when you can say that about most LCD's. Why would you want to buy one for your main display?

Overall quality.
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post #24 of 183 Old 10-04-2007, 01:30 PM
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Overall quality of what? Do they use a better grade of plastic? Certainly not picture quality.
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post #25 of 183 Old 10-04-2007, 01:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nmlobo View Post


How much 'blur' do you notice with your pdp? They lose resolution with movement as well.


i see 'blur' and macroblocking with motion on my plasma and all plasmas at bb.

i also see it on my lcd with motion.


it looks more pronounced on my lcd (i assume) because the lcd is generally sharper than plasma ie: if there is something bad in the signal the sharper set will show it more.

neither is perfect. pick your poison
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post #26 of 183 Old 10-04-2007, 02:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bosng View Post

i see 'blur' and macroblocking with motion on my plasma and all plasmas at bb.

i also see it on my lcd with motion.


it looks more pronounced on my lcd (i assume) because the lcd is generally sharper than plasma ie: if there is something bad in the signal the sharper set will show it more.

neither is perfect. pick your poison

It sounds like you have a poor source. Try FIoS Tv.
LCD vs plasma noise.....they are just different.
I would hardly call LCD sharper. Have you seen the Aquos noise up close?
I did not see any claims of perfection but please, ignoring what LCD's are doing to objects in motion is just plain silly.
Off axis angles, motion blur with resolution loss....these are real problems dogging LCD even now.

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post #27 of 183 Old 10-04-2007, 03:03 PM
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Face it folks--we're still not getting 1920X1080 every single pixel in all of its glory all the time. Real HD is not perfect yet. We should all be after the least bad or the least imperfect.

That happens to be Plasma at the current time. Why do people have such a problem with accepting the truth?

Sounds like LCD needs to rev up to about 240hz to get a significant increase in motion resolution.
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post #28 of 183 Old 10-04-2007, 05:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elemental1 View Post

It sounds like you have a poor source. Try FIoS Tv.
LCD vs plasma noise.....they are just different.
I would hardly call LCD sharper. Have you seen the Aquos noise up close?
I did not see any claims of perfection but please, ignoring what LCD's are doing to objects in motion is just plain silly.
Off axis angles, motion blur with resolution loss....these are real problems dogging LCD even now.


absolutely. poor sources will do it every time no matter what you have.

i don't notice any blurring on the lcd with hd dvd or sd dvd.

hd ota and cable is another story and some channels are hideous.

anybody claiming perfection is a fanboy in my book.

if you or anyone can cite a sequence from a movie on hd dvd (chapter time) that you claim to see blurring on lcd but not plasma, i will check it out on my sony xbr2 (yeah yeah, old stuff but i love it) and will be 100% honest in my response.

doesn't have to be hd dvd. any sd material will do. i can check it out on both the lcd and plasma.

no fanboy here.
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post #29 of 183 Old 10-04-2007, 07:40 PM
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Is DLP at least better than LCD?

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post #30 of 183 Old 10-05-2007, 04:12 PM
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The greatest Mitsubishi is.
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