Pioneer Kuros and Samsung LCD-How could this be?? - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 117 Old 01-22-2008, 07:06 PM
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I think plasmas still suffer from side view problems. My friend has a serious side view problem with his plasma. There is a big logo burned in on the side of his tv.lol.
Thats what i call a side image problem.
But I know if you do tons of preventive maintenance, and watch your TV with caution the chance of burn-in decreases. But the problem I have is that I don't want to have to do all that and noone should have to.
I fall asleep on my PS3 surfing the net sometimes. My god if I did that with a Plasma I would be scared to death.

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post #92 of 117 Old 01-23-2008, 02:51 AM
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I've fallen asleep with Oblivion on my plasma. No problems. You really have to abuse a new plasma to burn it in.
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post #93 of 117 Old 01-23-2008, 07:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chadmak09 View Post

...I fall asleep on my PS3 surfing the net....

You must be a very small person!
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post #94 of 117 Old 01-23-2008, 08:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandis View Post

I've fallen asleep with Oblivion on my plasma. No problems. You really have to abuse a new plasma to burn it in.

And the new Panasonic's are going to be just as resistant to burn in as LCDs are. According to Panasonic it takes 2000 hours before an image starts to "burn in" to the screen, which is on par with current LCDs. Temporary Image Retention will probably still be present, but closer to the Pioneer levels which are quite low. This is great news for gamers who don't want to deal with all of LCDs problems and have been put off by the thought of burn-in.

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post #95 of 117 Old 01-24-2008, 10:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnybrulez View Post

The Samsung 81 LCD can have the best blacks in the business better than Pioneer sometimes. If it was the 71 or 65 series, I'd take a harder look in a more dim room.

Granted... the Sammy 81 is better at contrast than about 99 percent of plasmas and LCDs... I'd say there's no shame in that. Dynamic dimming and all.

Sometimes..The Samsung blacks are almost to exaggerrated on things...Was watching a tv show on HD and a guy had a suit on that almost looked like it was very glossy black..Not true to life colors for me?


Quote:
Originally Posted by chadmak09 View Post

Dude,
LED backlighting is not a gimmick. nor is 120hz. I agree that the pioneer Kuro's have probably the best picture availible. But, Thats like a LCD lover calling Pioneers anti reflective screen, smooth mode, anti-burn in technology,etc gimmicks!
Improving on a technologys short comings is not a gimmick. Plasma does the same thing to combat its shortfalls.
Anything that either technology can do to improve customer satisfaction is a good thing in my book.
But I will admit that the Contrast levels that Samsung is advertising are definity gimmicks!!lol

120hz is overhyped...Basically fixing flickering when a camera pans over or across a positionary object...Antireflective does fade some light but a anti glare acutally does...Features that actually do things and serve a purpose..Why do you think burn in and flickering is not as apparent on plasma now? If 120hz is great why do people talk about Triple Ball Affects and it not reducing motion blurr on the 120hz LCDs?

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Originally Posted by chadmak09 View Post

I think plasmas still suffer from side view problems. My friend has a serious side view problem with his plasma. There is a big logo burned in on the side of his tv.lol.
Thats what i call a side image problem.
But I know if you do tons of preventive maintenance, and watch your TV with caution the chance of burn-in decreases. But the problem I have is that I don't want to have to do all that and noone should have to.
I fall asleep on my PS3 surfing the net sometimes. My god if I did that with a Plasma I would be scared to death.

Plasma have side view problems,are you kidding? Maintenance,is part of having a brand new product that in a short time will give your great performance..Just like a car or anything new motorized,you need to break it in then they will run and perform smoothly like they should.

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post #96 of 117 Old 02-01-2008, 04:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hi im drummer03 View Post

Sometimes..The Samsung blacks are almost to exaggerrated on things...Was watching a tv show on HD and a guy had a suit on that almost looked like it was very glossy black..Not true to life colors for me?

check this out

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...9#post13001539

i'm sure you know the benefits of a good calibration. a purchaser of this level of tv should get the set properly calibrated.

the samsung looks like it is very happy to accomodate.
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post #97 of 117 Old 02-01-2008, 06:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnybrulez View Post

Granted... the Sammy 81 is better at contrast than about 99 percent of plasmas and LCDs... I'd say there's no shame in that. Dynamic dimming and all.

When the 81 series was first released it was near the top of my list of best displays based solely on performance "claims". After research on the technology and many times viewing the panel (while not owning it like you) my opinion has changed. Variable static contrast relative to APL and also relative to spacial screen position (crosstalk) is really noticeable to me. And recently I've noticed that the 81 series black level (with >0 APL) dramatically increases at increasing viewing angles. And I mean dramatically!!!! It is as bad as my old Dell LCD monitor. The wider the viewing angle the much much higher the black level and lower the contrast. Is this panel a TN panel???

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post #98 of 117 Old 02-03-2008, 11:38 PM
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was at bb today and checked out a pioneer elite 110 pro 150fd next to an xbr5. the entire room dedicated to flat panels had medium lighting and was showing planet earth.

let me say that both sets were incredible but the xbr5 had more of that pop in the picture that made you feel you were watching something alive like you could reach out and touch it. the difference was quite noticeable.

the pioneer looked better when you go to more than a 45 degree angle from center. this of course has always been an advantage for plasmas.

just made me think of what people (plasma people) always
saying that black levels make images pop more than white but it sure didn't seem to be the case. looks like lcd's have enough of both to generate that pop in a picture.
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post #99 of 117 Old 02-04-2008, 05:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bosng View Post

was at bb today and checked out a pioneer elite 110 pro 150fd next to an xbr5. the entire room dedicated to flat panels had medium lighting and was showing planet earth.

let me say that both sets were incredible but the xbr5 had more of that pop in the picture that made you feel you were watching something alive like you could reach out and touch it. the difference was quite noticeable.

the pioneer looked better when you go to more than a 45 degree angle from center. this of course has always been an advantage for plasmas.

just made me think of what people (plasma people) always
saying that black levels make images pop more than white but it sure didn't seem to be the case. looks like lcd's have enough of both to generate that pop in a picture.

It depends what kind of "pop" are you looking for? I think the Kuro has a 3D like image and it looks like you are looking through a window. It just looks realistic. It all depends what you and your eyes like. Anyway, you can't ever compare TV's on a showroom floor...The TV always looks different when you bring it home.
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post #100 of 117 Old 02-04-2008, 06:54 PM
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I work at a consumer electronics store. I was comparing the Kuros to many displays the other day when they were showing some snowboarding. The Kuros seemed to have the worst whites of all the sets. The whites almost seemed dim bluish whites. I still think that the Kuros were the best overall of the flat panels, but they still couldn't do both true black and true white like CRTs can. The Samsung LCDs, The Panny Plasmas, the Toshiba Regzas, and even the Westinghouse sets all had much more realistic looking snow than the Kuros.
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post #101 of 117 Old 02-04-2008, 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by RocketFodder View Post

Actually, I wanted very much to get into flat panels and use one as a new TV/computer monitor, but I couldn't justify the cost and trade-offs for different sources, gaming, color, black levels, greyscale, etc. So, I got a $300 Sony FW900 and I still don't believe other sets could match this in performance no matter what the budget was.

At any rate, it's certainly not a very large investment when you read about all the growing pains each new set has. I'd rather pick a set that works for me instead of one that has the fewest issues I have a problem with. That said, I'm probably being a tad unfair given that I need something that can run weird resolutions and scale rather nicely.

I think it will be 20 years before ANY FLAT PANEL DISPLAY has even half the picture quality of a Sony FW900. Its like comparing the Space Shuttle to a Corvette, there's no contest.
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post #102 of 117 Old 02-04-2008, 06:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bosng View Post

i can't be the only one who's noticed motion blur on a plasma. maybe plasma folks aren't looking hard enough.

camera pans, judder, fuzzy edges during zooms. i see it on a plasma as well as lcd.

as for the 81 next to the kuros i saw in the store. the 81 lcd was definitely darker in the black areas than the kuros. ironically it was the pioneer flower (kuros) demo that was playing. go figure they are both nice sets. know what you like/want and get it.

Anyone whose using CRTs with their MASSIVE Motion Resolution and INSANE response time will notice motion Blur and Lower Motion Resolution on Plasmas, it's people who are used to LCDs that think that Plasmas have no motion blur.
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post #103 of 117 Old 02-06-2008, 08:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chadmak09 View Post

I think plasmas still suffer from side view problems. My friend has a serious side view problem with his plasma. There is a big logo burned in on the side of his tv.lol.
Thats what i call a side image problem.
But I know if you do tons of preventive maintenance, and watch your TV with caution the chance of burn-in decreases. But the problem I have is that I don't want to have to do all that and noone should have to.
I fall asleep on my PS3 surfing the net sometimes. My god if I did that with a Plasma I would be scared to death.


Your friend has issues.
My Pioneer can be seen from pratically 90 degrees. Lcd's are nowhere close to that.
Burn-in is just being irresponsible. It is 'hard' to get burn-in, very hard.(with a decent plasma)
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post #104 of 117 Old 02-06-2008, 08:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack White View Post

Anyone whose using CRTs with their MASSIVE Motion Resolution and INSANE response time will notice motion Blur and Lower Motion Resolution on Plasmas, it's people who are used to LCDs that think that Plasmas have no motion blur.

IYO....I obviously came from, the world of crt like everyone else and do not see blur on plasmas. I do suff from sample and hold on 'all' lcd's, including the 120Hz(4ms or 8ms) panels.
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post #105 of 117 Old 02-06-2008, 08:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack White View Post

I work at a consumer electronics store. I was comparing the Kuros to many displays the other day when they were showing some snowboarding. The Kuros seemed to have the worst whites of all the sets. The whites almost seemed dim bluish whites. I still think that the Kuros were the best overall of the flat panels, but they still couldn't do both true black and true white like CRTs can. The Samsung LCDs, The Panny Plasmas, the Toshiba Regzas, and even the Westinghouse sets all had much more realistic looking snow than the Kuros.

You work in the store, yet don't adjust the sets? How can you make comparisons of non-calibrated sets? Most plasmas after calibration meet the D65 standard for whites and brightness.
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post #106 of 117 Old 02-08-2008, 02:13 PM
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I don't work in Home Theater. I'm also afraid of getting in trouble by adjusting the sets.
The Kuros seem to have what can be described as "white crush" under at least the bright lights. There was far more visable detail in the snow such as foot prints and tire tracks in the other displays vs the Kuros from the probably "uncalibrated displays" that I see everyday. Perhaps polarizing lenses are required to even attempt to compare displays in such a situation.
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post #107 of 117 Old 02-09-2008, 09:38 AM
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A $300 CRT giving the current HDTV's a run on PQ?
Thats' funny. It would take a very high end CRT to do that.


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post #108 of 117 Old 02-09-2008, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Elemental1 View Post

A $300 CRT giving the current HDTV's a run on PQ?
Thats' funny. It would take a very high end CRT to do that.

Not really, my old Sanyo 28inch HDCRT looks about the same as my Panasonic 42px75 and has no motion blur. (and it cost me $300 when I got it.)

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post #109 of 117 Old 02-09-2008, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

Not really, my old Sanyo 28inch HDCRT looks about the same as my Panasonic 42px75 and has no motion blur. (and it cost me $300 when I got it.)

My $300 Sony Trinitron runs laps around the $2000+ Kuro in all areas sans resolution. Flat-panel is a step back in many ways.

!
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post #110 of 117 Old 02-12-2008, 08:50 AM
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As a owner of the Kuro and 71F....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My final review of the 71F vs the Kuro 5080HD.

I finally was able to do some real testing between the Kuro and 71F, next to one another, in a dark room and bright room from 8-9feet. The picture quality was close, I mean, nearly identical in bright conditions and the black levels of the 71F matched the Kuro in bright conditions. The 71F truly is a beast of an LCD in the bright. From 8 feet, 1080p did not make a difference, I mean not even a hair in my or my fiances eyes. When I sat within 3 feet, the LCD looked cleaner, especially since the pixels on LCDs are much smaller, but also suprisingly, I could see more fine details on the Kuro. Colors were close, but on the plasma color was a bit deeper, but not by a lot. Shadow detail was even.

At night it was a different story. I put transformers on, with a bright colorful scene and picture quality was nearly identical. I then put on gears of war, and put it on level 3 in caves. A couple things. I viewed it on the 71F first, and I thought well the black levels look pretty good. I then tried the kuro and thats where the huge advantage was. The Kuro at night looked much more deep, bold, and actually sharper. the LCD looked flat in comparison. another thing I noticed that I didnt before, was the blacks on the 71F had a slight blue tint whereas the Kuro had a pure black look.

I then compared Crank on bluray on a scene with a close up of Jason statham in the pool. In the past ive taken shots on the XBR4 and 71F, and now the Kuro. to my suprise again, I couldnt notice anything less sharp on the Kuro, it looked every bit as resolved and detailed as the 1080p xbr4 and 71f. I thought with 768p, fine wrinkles wouldnt be as visible as on the 1080p LCDS, but this was not the case, not as all. in fact, I cant wait to review the pictures I took to make the comparison, the Kuro looked very sharp and detailed. BTW Im running the Kuro on 1080p upscaled.

When I told my friend Im going to exchange the 71F for the Kuro he thought I was crazy for exchanging a top of the line 1080p lCD with 120hz for a 768p plasma. In my experience, they are very close in performance, especially during the day where its about even minus the colors and slightly more defined look of the Kuro, but even then, you have to seriously sit there and analyze the picture with a magnifying glass to notice.

Comparing the smooth modes of both tvs was an easy decision. The lcds 120hz proccessing with de-judder blows away the smooth mode of the pioneer. smooth mode works almost as good as LOW AMP setting. On the flip side, games were more responsive on the plasma. I didnt notice any delay witht he LCD before, but now that Ive tried on both, the plasma is more reponsive, and even more when AMP is engaged on anything more than LOW.

So in the end, in bright conditions the difference is so small, only videophiles would notice. At night, its still close, unless you are watching a dark scene, and in that regard its not even close. Ive also noticed 1080p was only a real benefit when I sat within 4 feet (which I would never). Also, despite my previous thought, the PLasma pops just as much as the LCD, and even more than it at night with dark scenes. Screen unifority seemed even, but viewing angles were better on the plasma, since blacks did not fade from the side on the plasma. Also, the plasma picture quality seemed a bit more natural looking, which I prefer.

Oh and did I mention how impressed I am with the TV speaker of the Kuro. Its really sounds amazing for a TV speaker. Looks better with it on unless you mounted your set.

Honestly, I would like to keep both since I really like the AMP feature of the LCD, but since I cant, I will return the LCD finally in a couple of days. I will check out the 6series LCD to see what improvement have been made. Ideally I would like some variety in the house, and have one tv that can do de-judder and 120hz processing like the LCDs do. I dont know though, I have def. become a believer in pioneer.

By the way, this is not intended to downplay LCDs or put the Kuro on a pedestal. I know a lot of people view this thread before purchasing a TV, and I thought I'd share my experience. Both are def worth owning, but in the end, unless you are really into the AMP feature, the Kuro wins hands down in every category nearly by a hair (with the exeption of black levels in a pitch black room). Also, I can confirm that despite my previous thoughts, 1080p on a 50" set from 8-9 feet away is not a benefit for the most part, and there are alot of other factors that decide how detailed a picture is. I used to think resolution was the only factor why all the fine details stuck out. And also in my experience, the LCD does not pop more because its brighter. The plasma can pop out just as much, and in some cases more.

I took a bunch of pictures that came out crappy, but I'll try to post later if I have time, unless you guys dont care to see'em.
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post #111 of 117 Old 02-12-2008, 11:13 AM
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thanks for you comparisons.

just to clarify. have you calibrated your 71f brightness down so much that it looks like the kuros? in the showroom there is a night and day difference.

is this why the brightness and black level look similiar in a bright environment?
i definitely know how a plasma comes to life in the dark but i'm surprised at your comments abouts performance in a bright evironment being close. what i've seen of both sets in bright environments don't suggest that they perform similary. the 71f being the much brighter and thus blacker as well in a bright room.
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post #112 of 117 Old 02-12-2008, 12:19 PM
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Great comparo, mrTAPOUT - thanks!

Regarding the 5080's speakers: If I mounted my set on the wall using a tilt mount, would I still be able to have the speaker attached and be able to tilt the set down at all?
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post #113 of 117 Old 02-13-2008, 03:19 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris NYC View Post

My $300 Sony Trinitron runs laps around the $2000+ Kuro in all areas sans resolution. Flat-panel is a step back in many ways.

What if you had a flat panel that surpassed your CRT in every aspect of picture quality?
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post #114 of 117 Old 02-14-2008, 12:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris NYC View Post

My $300 Sony Trinitron runs laps around the $2000+ Kuro in all areas....

Sorry, but when I view a standard def TV at this point, all I see are the pixels, and the fuzzy picture quality of 640x480. Agreed that the larger high def CRTs have a truly gorgeous picture, I own one, but screen size and weight are really limiting factors. Give up on the CRT argument...they are dead technology today. And don't sit around waiting for the SED or OLED sets before you upgrade your set!
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post #115 of 117 Old 02-15-2008, 07:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrTAPOUT View Post

As a owner of the Kuro and 71F....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My final review of the 71F vs the Kuro 5080HD.

I finally was able to do some real testing between the Kuro and 71F, next to one another, in a dark room and bright room from 8-9feet. The picture quality was close, I mean, nearly identical in bright conditions and the black levels of the 71F matched the Kuro in bright conditions. The 71F truly is a beast of an LCD in the bright. From 8 feet, 1080p did not make a difference, I mean not even a hair in my or my fiances eyes. When I sat within 3 feet, the LCD looked cleaner, especially since the pixels on LCDs are much smaller, but also suprisingly, I could see more fine details on the Kuro. Colors were close, but on the plasma color was a bit deeper, but not by a lot. Shadow detail was even.

At night it was a different story. I put transformers on, with a bright colorful scene and picture quality was nearly identical. I then put on gears of war, and put it on level 3 in caves. A couple things. I viewed it on the 71F first, and I thought well the black levels look pretty good. I then tried the kuro and thats where the huge advantage was. The Kuro at night looked much more deep, bold, and actually sharper. the LCD looked flat in comparison. another thing I noticed that I didnt before, was the blacks on the 71F had a slight blue tint whereas the Kuro had a pure black look.

I then compared Crank on bluray on a scene with a close up of Jason statham in the pool. In the past ive taken shots on the XBR4 and 71F, and now the Kuro. to my suprise again, I couldnt notice anything less sharp on the Kuro, it looked every bit as resolved and detailed as the 1080p xbr4 and 71f. I thought with 768p, fine wrinkles wouldnt be as visible as on the 1080p LCDS, but this was not the case, not as all. in fact, I cant wait to review the pictures I took to make the comparison, the Kuro looked very sharp and detailed. BTW Im running the Kuro on 1080p upscaled.

When I told my friend Im going to exchange the 71F for the Kuro he thought I was crazy for exchanging a top of the line 1080p lCD with 120hz for a 768p plasma. In my experience, they are very close in performance, especially during the day where its about even minus the colors and slightly more defined look of the Kuro, but even then, you have to seriously sit there and analyze the picture with a magnifying glass to notice.

Comparing the smooth modes of both tvs was an easy decision. The lcds 120hz proccessing with de-judder blows away the smooth mode of the pioneer. smooth mode works almost as good as LOW AMP setting. On the flip side, games were more responsive on the plasma. I didnt notice any delay witht he LCD before, but now that Ive tried on both, the plasma is more reponsive, and even more when AMP is engaged on anything more than LOW.

So in the end, in bright conditions the difference is so small, only videophiles would notice. At night, its still close, unless you are watching a dark scene, and in that regard its not even close. Ive also noticed 1080p was only a real benefit when I sat within 4 feet (which I would never). Also, despite my previous thought, the PLasma pops just as much as the LCD, and even more than it at night with dark scenes. Screen unifority seemed even, but viewing angles were better on the plasma, since blacks did not fade from the side on the plasma. Also, the plasma picture quality seemed a bit more natural looking, which I prefer.

Oh and did I mention how impressed I am with the TV speaker of the Kuro. Its really sounds amazing for a TV speaker. Looks better with it on unless you mounted your set.

Honestly, I would like to keep both since I really like the AMP feature of the LCD, but since I cant, I will return the LCD finally in a couple of days. I will check out the 6series LCD to see what improvement have been made. Ideally I would like some variety in the house, and have one tv that can do de-judder and 120hz processing like the LCDs do. I dont know though, I have def. become a believer in pioneer.

By the way, this is not intended to downplay LCDs or put the Kuro on a pedestal. I know a lot of people view this thread before purchasing a TV, and I thought I'd share my experience. Both are def worth owning, but in the end, unless you are really into the AMP feature, the Kuro wins hands down in every category nearly by a hair (with the exeption of black levels in a pitch black room). Also, I can confirm that despite my previous thoughts, 1080p on a 50" set from 8-9 feet away is not a benefit for the most part, and there are alot of other factors that decide how detailed a picture is. I used to think resolution was the only factor why all the fine details stuck out. And also in my experience, the LCD does not pop more because its brighter. The plasma can pop out just as much, and in some cases more.

I took a bunch of pictures that came out crappy, but I'll try to post later if I have time, unless you guys dont care to see'em.

I had the 5080 and the 71f and the sony XBR4 and did some testing. as far as black levels and contrast, the 5080 won but the 71 came close with contrast.
As far as detail, color accuracy, picture adjustments, brightness, and anti-judder, the sony was the clear winner.

Although the Kuro's are my favorite HDTV's right now,
I would rather have the 71f or the XBR4 than the 5080.
IMO the 5080 just doesn't cut it. I pay very close attention to detail and watch my TV around 7 feet. And it is SDE city on the 5080. It drove me down right crazy. Everytime Text showed on the screen I would think to myself "man that looks terrible".

Now, the TV I am about to buy is the pdp-6010fd. Which is a 1080p kuro. This is the best TV on the market in my opinion (other than the pro150fd).
I am sure I will miss the 120hz effect on movies (it gives a video-like, soap opera feel). But in IMO: 60 inches+1080p+Pioneer Kuro Plasma= Video Bliss!
But I am probably gonna be kicking myself in the head 6-8 months from now when the 9G's come out for buying the 6010 right now but I can't wait any longer to get a 1080p kuro.

wHy So SeRiOus???



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post #116 of 117 Old 02-19-2008, 04:19 PM
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did I miss it in this thread but, The Sammys have that crazy gloss coating on the surface. It is 10 times move reflective than current plasmas , dont even try to deny it.
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post #117 of 117 Old 02-19-2008, 05:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eclipsed View Post

did I miss it in this thread but, The Sammys have that crazy gloss coating on the surface. It is 10 times move reflective than current plasmas , dont even try to deny it.

OOps..you were not supposed to catch that little tidbit.
Just forget all those years of those very same AVS'ers never giving plasma reflection an inch of mercy.


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