TWC Navigator Feature Wish List (What's Your Top 5?) - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 58 Old 04-18-2008, 06:57 PM - Thread Starter
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(Admin/Mods I created a special wish list specifically thinking that we could address 5 top issues that TWC should address as bug fixes, to try to reach a consensus as to what needs to be fixed the most. IMO the old Navigator thread was getting much too cluttered. I hope it's OK that we could keep this list for a Top 5 issues that need to be addressed. The other stuff, complaints or technical stuff, we should keep in the other Navigator thread.

Is this OK?

Regards,

Jack

(Satch Man)

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As you know,

We have seen for 2 years how this Navigator forum has developed, changed, and gone through threads with criticism, help, and support networks. All of you are wonderful in providing support. But as Navigator continues to be rolled out, and the reviews vary so much from all over the country, I thought that it would be good to come up with five things, (and only five things) that you would list as a top priority for TWC to fix with Navigator. It would be interesting to see if us Navigator subs could reach a consensus as to what needs the most work. If you have more than five things, you start splitting hairs and getting into issues that are more of personal preference than actual bugs or annoyances that need to be worked out.

Although it's early, things have gone well for me in Milwaukee with Navigator. (See my previous posts lists above.) But here are some issues that need to be addressed:

1.) The return of "View This Channel Now" when selecting future programs in the IPG's grid: (For a work around Tip, if your remote has a Day-/Day+ button, to "View this channel now. exit or (c) Cancel out of the choices screen for Recording a future show. Than press the "Day-" button.) The guide will go back to the earliest time frame available. The cell indicator will stay on earliest show in the grid. Than Press Select.

If your remote doesn't have a Day+/- button, after pressing Exit or (C) to get out of the program recording options screen, Press the Guide Button twice. than Select.
This will also take you back to the earliest time available for the channel.

2.) The return of the ability to do Word Searches (not just title searches) which would bring up matching programs on the keyboard: Consequently, when doing a Browse by Title, Category, or Rating, users should be able to bring up the keyboard (B) button and have the information narrowed down in the listings based on Search results. Currently, the keyboard forces you to "start all over again" even after narrowing a "Find Shows" Search.

3.) A bug is sometimes multiple listings of a program, are given on a channel number that doesn't exist: I have observed this for program searches for both TV Land and TCM. In addition to TV Land (Channel 61) a duplicate listing showed up under the prompt, "There are multiple listings of this title" that also showed TV Land on what was listed in the 600 range! What's funny, is that TWC doesn't offer a secondary feed for TV Land. TCM in addition to the proper listings (Channel 60) showed a channel 1879 or something in that range. Going to the TCM channel in the 1000's said, "This channel is not available at this time." Conventional TCM on Channel 60 came in fine. When I went to the higher channel for TV Land, the guide showed a channel in the 600 range. (I think it was 637 or 687.) But the IPG Guide said Channel 800. On Demand Previews. This could be a bug, or perhaps they are testing a different digital channel for TV Land and TCM.

Tip: If you encounter the above for the purposes of recording, just select the known channel number on the system to record and ignore the duplicate.

4.) A warning stating, "Are you sure you want to delete this recording?" after watching a recording: Right now, you only get a confirmation if you stop a recording in progress.

5.)The option to change the current recording default from "Do Not Delete" to "Save Until Space is Needed:" The ability to keep it as the default until changed back by the user for EVERY show. Don't just allow this on an individual program basis. Users should be able to have something like Recording Options on the DVR List screen, that when changed, will effect all recordings until changed again.

There are my top 5.

Jack

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Metro-Milwaukee Wisconsin

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post #2 of 58 Old 04-19-2008, 05:56 AM
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1. Fix external drive support
2. Fix external drive support
3. Fix external drive support
4. Fix channel not available bug
5. Fix channel not available bug

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post #3 of 58 Old 04-19-2008, 07:08 AM
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1) The rewind function needs to end a second or two behind when you hit "Play" again. Instead, it pops back into play mode a couple of seconds in front of where you want it to start. Which makes you have to rewind again to get back to the point where you thought you were going to start before. It drives me and my wife crazy. Passport worked much more elegantly and precisely.

2) I haven't turned off my second DVR which has my expansion drive so I haven't been 'gatored on that one yet. (I'm hoping they can't push it on your box if you don't turn it off to receive the download; probably a pipe dream.) But I thought the expansion drives were working fine with Navigator, at least the ones that were on Passport systems...?

3) The digital clock feature present in the guide no longer shows seconds like Passport, only minutes. Ditto with the status bar on recording playback. Seconds are important, especially when you're FF or REW through a show and want to get to a specific point you've marked to the second. And I just like more precision in my timekeeping; I always set my clocks on the STB time and I need seconds for that. There was no reason to take them out and it would be easy to add them back.

4) Please, for the love of God, shrink the banner during recording status/channel changes and make it more transparent. It seems like it takes up the whole bottom quarter of the screen and it's quite (although not entirely) opaque. Again, an easy fix. Didn't anyone review the GUI in development...?

5) Hell, just hire Aptiv to come in and make it look and perform like Passport. That would be the easist solution to all these problems and result in the happiest customers. That is supposed to matter to TWC, right? Right??
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post #4 of 58 Old 04-19-2008, 08:56 AM
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1) When it is 5 minutes or less from the bottom or top of the hour, the guide should jump ahead to display the bottom or top of the hour timeslot. (This would almost make up for no "view this channel now.")

2) "View This Channel Now." (Hey. I said almost. )

3) The timeline bar should display a time indicator for where within a buffer or recording you currently are.

4) The option to define "do not delete"/"save until space is needed" for a series recording, not just individual recordings.

5) Navigator should save and continue to fill the buffer for a period of time after the DVR is turned off. (i.e. if you accidentally turn off the DVR, it shouldn't immediately dump everything in the buffer. )
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post #5 of 58 Old 04-19-2008, 10:00 AM
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1. Fix external drive suport in 2.4.9_3 version.
2. Add 30 second skip
3. Add the ability to remove channels from view as well as from the searches; allow exclusion of the On Demand stuff as well
4. Allow searches more complex than just title. Related to that: allow setting up recordings based on searches (even if search currently returns nothing).
5. Fix newly introduced (in 2.4.9_3, not in 2.4.5_4) bug for series set to record only New recordings
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post #6 of 58 Old 04-19-2008, 10:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PedjaR View Post

1. Fix external drive suport in 2.4.9_3 version.
2. Add 30 second skip
3. Add the ability to remove channels from view as well as from the searches; allow exclusion of the On Demand stuff as well
4. Allow searches more complex than just title. Related to that: allow setting up recordings based on searches (even if search currently returns nothing).
5. Fix newly introduced (in 2.4.9_3, not in 2.4.5_4) bug for series set to record only New recordings

I'll second these, especially 1 & 2.
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post #7 of 58 Old 04-19-2008, 10:32 AM
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I want both tuners back! (Like my old pasport). I want both tuners to keep the last hour of the channel they are tuned too (if the channel hasn't been changed).

I want to SWAP between the tuners without hitting the PIP button. (and when I swap I don't want to lose the last hour of either tuner).

If I set the output to 1080i then I want it to stay at 1080i, not revert to 480p everytime the TV is turned off.

When I am viewing the menu and press B to find a show I want it to already be on the show I am watching. In fact, I want the menu lookup featuers to work exactly like my passport did. I'm not against change, it was just better.

I want to be able to rewind at least one hour. I don't want my rewind buffer cleared whan a show ends. This is crazy.
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post #8 of 58 Old 04-19-2008, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fsuinnc View Post

I want both tuners back! (Like my old pasport). I want both tuners to keep the last hour of the channel they are tuned too (if the channel hasn't been changed).

I want to SWAP between the tuners without hitting the PIP button. (and when I swap I don't want to lose the last hour of either tuner).

If I set the output to 1080i then I want it to stay at 1080i, not revert to 480p everytime the TV is turned off.

When I am viewing the menu and press B to find a show I want it to already be on the show I am watching. In fact, I want the menu lookup featuers to work exactly like my passport did. I'm not against change, it was just better.

I want to be able to rewind at least one hour. I don't want my rewind buffer cleared whan a show ends. This is crazy.

You've got to be kidding! I haven't been crapigatored yet and I've stopped keeping up with the gripes ... but you are telling me that this is the way it works??? That stinks.

Larry

I thought we were cool de la?
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post #9 of 58 Old 04-19-2008, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fsuinnc View Post

I want both tuners back! (Like my old pasport). I want both tuners to keep the last hour of the channel they are tuned too (if the channel hasn't been changed).

I want to SWAP between the tuners without hitting the PIP button. (and when I swap I don't want to lose the last hour of either tuner).

If I set the output to 1080i then I want it to stay at 1080i, not revert to 480p everytime the TV is turned off.

When I am viewing the menu and press B to find a show I want it to already be on the show I am watching. In fact, I want the menu lookup featuers to work exactly like my passport did. I'm not against change, it was just better.

I want to be able to rewind at least one hour. I don't want my rewind buffer cleared whan a show ends. This is crazy.

On my SA 8000, the rewind buffer is preserved for a previous program but is not shown on the current DVR timeline. You can rewind past "zero" on the timeline to the previous program time. However, the total buffer time seems variable. Sometimes it is as much as 1 hour and at other times it is as little as 30 minutes. I liked the old time line with the current position time display much better.

I second the comments about SWAP! In addition, pause needs to be maintained on the swapped channel.
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post #10 of 58 Old 04-19-2008, 07:16 PM - Thread Starter
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One thing that I would also like to add,

(And everyone please notify your TWC offices about this) The Sports list is much more truncated than it should be. I noticed that there is no Tennis category under sports. Not sure if this is because there were no matches on at the time, but this needs to be added immediately. Tennis is a very popular sport for many users and needs a category in the sports list.

Jack

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post #11 of 58 Old 04-19-2008, 08:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lrdiver View Post

On my SA 8000, the rewind buffer is preserved for a previous program but is not shown on the current DVR timeline. You can rewind past "zero" on the timeline to the previous program time. However, the total buffer time seems variable. Sometimes it is as much as 1 hour and at other times it is as little as 30 minutes. I liked the old time line with the current position time display much better.

I second the comments about SWAP! In addition, pause needs to be maintained on the swapped channel.

On my 8300HD, swap works the same way it always did, by pressing the SWAP button on the remote, regardless of whether PIP is turned on or not. (Pause is not maintained, however.)
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post #12 of 58 Old 04-21-2008, 12:23 PM
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Bring back the frame by frame advance feature.
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post #13 of 58 Old 04-21-2008, 12:54 PM
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Mine (from another thread):

1) When fast forwarding and rewinding, it no longer displays the time (yes I know there is a time on the left hand side, but not being over the fast forward bar, it makes it difficult to know the exact time in the show).

2) When fast forwarding and rewinding, you can no longer use the left and right arrow to move to the next 15 minute interval marker. We used this all the time to really get through shows, now we have to wait for fast forward to work. (this appears to be solved by holding down FF or RW a few seconds and it'll jump 15 minutes, still not as quick as using the L and R arrow keys).

3) When in Guide mode and clicking favorites, the channel actually changes and the guide goes away instead of the guide jumping to the next favorite channel and staying in guide mode. This is a PAIN since my guide browsing consisted of going into guide and hitting favorites to go through my channels. Yes, you can choose to order your favorites at the beginning of the guide, but that throws things out of wack when you want to go to other non-Favorites and they are in the 200's because they are HD.

4) Day +/- buttons do not seem to work; only get the "loading data" message.

5) The confirmation screens are big and cover the whole screen.
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post #14 of 58 Old 04-22-2008, 09:19 AM
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Commercial Advance

CA GUY
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post #15 of 58 Old 04-22-2008, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CA_Guy View Post

Commercial Advance

If by this you mean "30-second skip forward" - a nice, precise software-based solution - forget it. That feature is long gone and ain't coming back for commercial, leased DVR's. Sorry.

Your best bet, if that's a feature you want, is to create a 30 second skip (or any interval you like) using an advanced universal remote control that allows you to program pauses in macro strings. I use an MX-800 remote and have programmed both 30 second and 3 minute skips onto buttons (and have to re-do them now, actually, since Navigator doesn't work exactly like Passport in FF mode). Works great, although I seldom use them, preferring to simply FF past any commercials to get to the next scene.
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post #16 of 58 Old 04-22-2008, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by archiguy View Post

If by this you mean "30-second skip forward" - a nice, precise software-based solution - forget it. That feature is long gone and ain't coming back for commercial, leased DVR's. Sorry.

NO, I don't mean "30 second skip". I mean Commercial Advance; patented technology which automatically detects and skips commercials in recorded broadcasts. Certainly as long as TiVo (owned by broadcasters) and TV service providers (who also run commercials) are the only place in town with digital recorders it won't be available in DVRs. But as people wake up and move to Media Center type solutions they will find this option can be made available.

CA GUY
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post #17 of 58 Old 04-25-2008, 08:20 PM
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Just got updated in TWC-NC on my 8000HD.

1) Unless I missed it, give me back the ability to jump 15 minutes increments through shows.
2) Used to be if I wanted to find, for instance, a hockey game that's on I could go to catagory -> Hockey -> then skip down to the next "NHL Hockey" title and find it. Now I do the same thing and I wind up with 20 "NHL Hockey" titles that I then have to click on and page through until I hopefully locate the one I want.
3) How about a useful screen saver? On my 16x9 HDTV on a high-def show if I leave it paused long enough to get the screen saver I get a black screen over the 4:3 part of the screen and the sides show the paused screen which should result in quite wonderful burn-in.
4) I'm sure there's more. How about actual high-def menus?
5) Whatever else sucks.
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post #18 of 58 Old 04-26-2008, 05:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bjdupuis View Post

Just got updated in TWC-NC on my 8000HD.

1) Unless I missed it, give me back the ability to jump 15 minutes increments through shows.

You missed it. Hold down the FF or REW button and it will jump the 15 minutes.
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post #19 of 58 Old 04-28-2008, 08:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Not exactly a top 5 wish, but something I observed:

What I think looks nice are the fonts for the On Demand Channels. They look more Y2K8 than the IPG fonts. I would like to see a future IPG skin update, look more like those.

Jack

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post #20 of 58 Old 04-29-2008, 04:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by archiguy View Post

You missed it. Hold down the FF or REW button and it will jump the 15 minutes.

Thanks! While not as efficient as the Passport method, at least there is one.

Another thing I noticed last night: from the guide the bars don't tell you how long a show is if it's longer than 1.5 hours. Again with the hockey example. Last night I was trying to find the hockey game. Got to it and the bar for it extended from 7:00 to 8:30. But if you scroll right, the bar keeps extending out by half an hour each time. Kinda silly.
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post #21 of 58 Old 05-06-2008, 05:29 AM
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I have only 1, make navigator exactly like the old passport, I refuse to believe anyone is dumb enough to replace such as great system with one as bad as this, and I am(or was) a great supporter of warner cable, oh well I'll list my 5.

1. need keyword search back
2. manual recording, I can't resolve conflicts such as 1 minute overruns without cancelling an entire show--ridiculous
3. give me theme or title search back, the old system allowed me to research a show highlighted on the guide without hitting 4- 5 buttons and entering the title

There are more but correct the above and I can live with it. don't fix it and a $120.00 month customer says bye-bye.
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post #22 of 58 Old 05-06-2008, 11:31 AM
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So far, I have liked Navigator, but here are my wishes:
  1. Allow customers the ability to create skins through the Time Warner Cable website for downloading into the box. The current skin is a mixed bag of good and bad aesthetics, but has improved a long way since I first tried out Navigator on a mall kiosk where it was butt-ugly but more legible than Passport.
  2. Allow users to use this box to check emails if they have a Road Runner account. This is useful in case the home computer or computers break down.
  3. Fix HDMI and eSATA on the OCAP boxes and OCrAP boxes (boxes that do not comply with the OCAP hardware minimum requriements, but still attempt to run OCAP).
  4. Replace all of the 82xx(HD)C, 83xx(HD)C, and 42xx(HD)C OCrAP boxes with the much more reliable 85xxHDC and 45xxHDC proper OCAP boxes that meet the OCAP minimum requirements. This will also bring an HD boom using MPEG-4 and VC-1, and allow the guide to use a bunch of currently wasted space on the outer areas of the TV screen.
  5. Multi-boot different IPGs for an extra fee. Many would love to pay Time Warner Cable extra to license the Passport or TiVo IPGs. However, Navigator will be needed to handle features TWC dreams up but have not been implemented in other IPGs. Obviously, this idea would be a non-starter on the legacy boxes because there are too many legacy platforms to program to and could only be implemented feasibly on OCAP.
One feature that I would love to see TWC do but is unrelated to Navigator would be below:
  • Pressure Cisco and Motorola to start developing boxes that include a empty 3.5" bay that can be cable technician-serviced so that cable companies can start leasing out Seagate's, Hitachi's, or Western Digital's one terabyte monsters if they wished to do so. However, the user should not just instal whatever drive he desires in the drive bay because many PC hard drives can consume more power than DVR-optimized hard drives in order to boost performance, which can overload the set top box power supply but is nothing to any good PC power supply.
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post #23 of 58 Old 05-07-2008, 05:56 AM
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After some more time with it I've got another one. How about if the box doesn't completely crash while scrolling through channels quickly? As an example, our power-on channel is 14. The HD channels begin in the 200s. Scrolling with the paging button gets me into about the 70s or so and the screen goes blank and the front-panel LEDs go to the "boot" prompt. Hurray! Kiss any active recordings goodbye.
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post #24 of 58 Old 05-07-2008, 07:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomnan24 View Post

I have only 1, make navigator exactly like the old passport, I refuse to believe anyone is dumb enough to replace such as great system with one as bad as this, and I am(or was) a great supporter of warner cable, oh well I'll list my 5.

1. need keyword search back
2. manual recording, I can't resolve conflicts such as 1 minute overruns without cancelling an entire show--ridiculous
3. give me theme or title search back, the old system allowed me to research a show highlighted on the guide without hitting 4- 5 buttons and entering the title

There are more but correct the above and I can live with it. don't fix it and a $120.00 month customer says bye-bye.

You can handle 1 minute overruns with negative padding (keep increasing padding and it eventually becomes negative).
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post #25 of 58 Old 05-07-2008, 08:03 AM
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After finding out how easy it is for my mother (who does not seem to mix well with anything to do with computers at all) to accidentally abort a recording while in the middle of the recording from the menu that shows up when the green "LIST" button on the remote is pressed, here are some things that could help foolproof the design against people who are bad with computers:
  1. Allow the user to specify if he or she wants confirmation prompts before anything permanent is done like show deletion and aborting recordings in the user settings. I would normally leave this off because this is annoying, but is needed to deal with people who are not very computer-literate.
  2. Allow the user to lock out some permanent commands using the parental controls.
  3. Change the command that is highlighted by default to a menu option that is not dangerous when possible.
  4. Create the ability to optionally require a login by having the user select an account and typing in a PIN. Using this, allow each user to record shows to his or her own folder, and then set permissions for themselves and for other users. Offer two interfaces on how to set permissions: an easy interface that asks a question for each permission, and an advanced interface that accepts the number that a Unix or Linux user would input into a chmod command from the remote. See this page to get an idea on how these numbers would work. Also optionally allow a guest account for those who cannot log in. This way, the movie buff can search the collections of recorded movies without having to wade through the child's stash of recorded Barney, Teletubbies, or Hannah Montana episodes, or someone other user's stash of soap operas.
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post #26 of 58 Old 05-07-2008, 11:21 AM
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  1. When you play a show from your DVR List, and then return to the List, it should be Selecting (Highlight) the show which you were just watching, and not some other random show in your List.
  2. In the Keyboard Search, it should wrap at the far left/right/top/bottom; in other words, when you are at the far Right edge of the virtual Keyboard, and you press Right again, it should wrap you around to the far Left edge. Likewise if you are at the very bottom Edge of the keyboard, and you press Down, it should wrap you to the Top edge.
  3. In Keyboard search, it should gray out the letters that are no longer valid; for example, you type in APOCALY and it should gray out all letters except "P" because "P" is the only valid letter to follow in this word. Basically, the
    Search should to search through the Guide Results as you type in each letter, and gray out letters that will yield no results. Passport did this. This makes using the keyboard a lot easier, since alot of letters gray out, and are automatically skipped as you navigate the virtual keyboard.
  4. On most Submenus (such as the Recording Options submenu, the Settings submenu etc), when you go to the Bottom-most item in the menu and hit Down again, it should wrap you to the Top item. Similarly, if you are at the Top most item and hit Up, it should send you to the Bottom most item.
  5. Allow option to use Gray colored skin instead of Blue skin for Navigator interface; the current Blue skin will excessively use up the blue phosphors on plasma displays in the blue regions of the interface.
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post #27 of 58 Old 05-07-2008, 06:54 PM
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1. Show deletion prioritization.
2. Manual recording.
3. Completely different and better designed skin.
4. Return to quick settings menu. And by quick I don't mean having to, click, highlight, select, highlight, select, exit just to turn on the damn captions.
5. Consistent cursor select. Why bother having arrows indicating both left and right when only one option is displayed? Left means back. If there's only two options why should you need to push a specific direction to change it? Idiotic GUI design again.

6. That idiotic fade. It just makes everything look slower.


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post #28 of 58 Old 05-09-2008, 01:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:


1.) The return of "View This Channel Now" when selecting future programs in the IPG's grid: (For a work around Tip, if your remote has a Day-/Day+ button, to "View this channel now. exit or (c) Cancel out of the choices screen for Recording a future show. Than press the "Day-" button.) The guide will go back to the earliest time frame available. The cell indicator will stay on earliest show in the grid. Than Press Select.

If your remote doesn't have a Day+/- button, after pressing Exit or (C) to get out of the program recording options screen, Press the Guide Button twice. than Select.
This will also take you back to the earliest time available for the channel.

2.) The return of the ability to do Word Searches (not just title searches) which would bring up matching programs on the keyboard: Consequently, when doing a Browse by Title, Category, or Rating, users should be able to bring up the keyboard (B) button and have the information narrowed down in the listings based on Search results. Currently, the keyboard forces you to "start all over again" even after narrowing a "Find Shows" Search.

3.) A bug is sometimes multiple listings of a program, are given on a channel number that doesn't exist: I have observed this for program searches for both TV Land and TCM. In addition to TV Land (Channel 61) a duplicate listing showed up under the prompt, "There are multiple listings of this title" that also showed TV Land on what was listed in the 600 range! What's funny, is that TWC doesn't offer a secondary feed for TV Land. TCM in addition to the proper listings (Channel 60) showed a channel 1879 or something in that range. Going to the TCM channel in the 1000's said, "This channel is not available at this time." Conventional TCM on Channel 60 came in fine. When I went to the higher channel for TV Land, the guide showed a channel in the 600 range. (I think it was 637 or 687.) But the IPG Guide said Channel 800. On Demand Previews. This could be a bug, or perhaps they are testing a different digital channel for TV Land and TCM.

Tip: If you encounter the above for the purposes of recording, just select the known channel number on the system to record and ignore the duplicate.

4.) A warning stating, "Are you sure you want to delete this recording?" after watching a recording: Right now, you only get a confirmation if you stop a recording in progress.

5.)The option to change the current recording default from "Do Not Delete" to "Save Until Space is Needed:" The ability to keep it as the default until changed back by the user for EVERY show. Don't just allow this on an individual program basis. Users should be able to have something like Recording Options on the DVR List screen, that when changed, will effect all recordings until changed again.

There are my top 5.

Jack

Just to update, I did send an e-mail to TWC-Milwaukee and they have forwarded these issues to their tech team. Many of these issues seem to be a composite of the features of Navigator that users want and shared together. Has anyone tried to contact any upper division techs or developers and asked of their top five, my top five, or anybody's top five, from a software development/update perspective, what features may you be getting first?

Jack

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post #29 of 58 Old 05-09-2008, 05:04 AM
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It would be nice to let the cable box be able to filter or show emergency alert system (EAS) messages at the county (or parish, in the case of Louisiana) level. That way, someone who lives in county A could choose to ignore emergency alert system messages for county B. I learned that Navigator was showing an EAS message when it was overlaid on top of the guide when I was using it to show tornado warnings for some nearby counties but not the one I am in.
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post #30 of 58 Old 05-09-2008, 01:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Another update,

Everyone should contact their TWC offices regarding this issue:

We need more Sports in the Sports Catagory List!!! Many basic sports are not listed (i.e Tennis) For Tennis, you have to go under Sports Misc to find it and than Page+/- for such an important sport that many people like. I could understand something like Water Pollo under Sports Misc. but not Tennis.

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