E* HDTV PVR Demo showed - Page 6 - AVS Forum
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post #151 of 178 Old 02-15-2002, 06:56 PM
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hi, i'm a sony xbr2 owner in southern NH.
i'm happy about what i'm reading
about this HDTV PVR. my goal is to be able
record one OTA [H]DTV show while watching another. looks like i may be able
to achieve this goal iby 3Q 2002! n i c e !
(btw, i have no interest in satellite or any other subscription service.)
cheers...
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post #152 of 178 Old 02-15-2002, 08:11 PM
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While the initial plan of Echostar is clearly to use DVI for conection to TV and Firewire to external decks and hard drives, I think that this can and will change. Sending a stream to a TV or to a D-VHS deck over Firewire is pretty much the same thing -- same data, same encryption. If a stream can be sent to a deck, it can be sent to a TV as well.

What would be needed is for E* to get approval from the content owners that it was okay to send it to a TV over Firewire. And I think that such approval will be forthcoming. The reason is that Sony owns so much content that their movie division can interfere with approval of DVI support until they get the support for Firewire that they want. Once that happens, I expect E* to change the behavior of their box. The electronics will already be in place.

I am not sure that E* will provide a live feed to a TV via Firewire. But I hate watching live TV so I'm not interested in that, only in playing back recorded content at my convenience. But I am confident that they will allow playback via Firewire once there is a deal for protected content over Firewire.
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post #153 of 178 Old 02-15-2002, 09:00 PM
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Please read at botton of link.

MPAA seek copy protection on OTA


I do not think this PVR will every be relase. Hollywood is try to stop all recording. This PVR is a SUCKER PUNCH. If Sony gets the other studios to agree to 5C You will not need the DVI stuff.

Bruce.in.Triangle NC
Firewire is alive and kicking!
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post #154 of 178 Old 02-19-2002, 12:18 AM
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Quote:
Larry Little wrote on page 4 (01-16-02):
By supporting DVI over firewire for connection to the TV, E* will be producing a product that will NOT be fully functional with half the existing market (down res'ing the signal does not constitute "working" to HDTV owners who spent their money to watch full res HD.) In other words, assuming they stick to their currently stated plans, E* will be producing a product that will effectively NOT "work for the masses" once copy protection goes into effect.
Quote:
OTOH, Mike Scott wrote on page 3 (01-15-02):
DTCP compliant devices are only allowed to display copy-protected content on HD analog output if they first reduce the resolution of the image to no more than 540x960. It's silly, but true. It would still be a digital quality image, and if the device doing the image constraint gave a damn, it could look pretty good, since it was reducing the entire full resolution image and not interpolating some information like line doubling and quadrupling algorithms. The constrained image could, in itself, be worth recording and stealing, and a damned sight higher quality than the DVD rips that get traded on the Internet now.
From the reviews I've read, almost all CRT-based projectors and RPTVs produced up to now have effective resolutions that are worse than 540x960. Sure, their manufacturers claim (in a vague way) a vertical resolution of 720 or even 1080 lines, but evidently that's not often the case. So I submit that most early adopters will not be losing much (if any) detail if they're forced to use the constrained analog video output of the proposed E* HDTV PVR.

Of course, I don't have any particular axe to grind because I haven't adopted early... this time. ;) So I agree with Don Landis (page 4, 01-16-02):
Quote:
Frankly, I think you all should be grateful that E* is making a fabulous attempt at bringing us a way to not only Time Shift but also archive HDTV off their DBS channels.
I'm grateful (albeit a little skeptical about the PVR appearing this year).

And, Don, I do care about the price (as well as the release date). But I paid top dollar, $700 (including lifetime service) for my 14-hr TiVo. More important to me, though, are (1) will it actually come to market? (2) will TiVo bring out a competing STB?

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post #155 of 178 Old 02-19-2002, 12:20 AM
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Quote:
rudolpht (Tim Rudolph?) wrote on page 6 (01-24-02):
I think few folks will go HD because of HD PVR, unless nobody bought standard def before Replay & Tivo.
Not a valid argument, Tim. I (and my wife) have had 30 months to get addicted to TiVo's convenience and neither of us wants to switch to HDTV without that convenience. TV's world has changed! My guess is that you're not a PVR owner.

Like Jamie E, I'll buy the 921, along with my first HD monitor (with those DVI inputs) soon after it becomes available.

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post #156 of 178 Old 02-22-2002, 07:24 PM
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I have a Mitsubishi Diamond HDTV set and I am a Dish subscriber. Will my tv work with the Dish HD PVR? What if I bought the Promise module that Mitsubishi plans on offering to past customers of their HD sets?
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post #157 of 178 Old 02-23-2002, 01:54 AM
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hdtvmaniac -

Do you currently use a Dish 6000 with your Mitsubishi? If the answer is yes, you'll be able to use the Dish 921 PVR with no further equipment.

Peter
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post #158 of 178 Old 02-24-2002, 12:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Syzygy
Not a valid argument, Tim. I (and my wife) have had 30 months to get addicted to TiVo's convenience and neither of us wants to switch to HDTV without that convenience. TV's world has changed!
You are part of the few or two as the case may be.

Tim

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post #159 of 178 Old 02-24-2002, 12:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Syzygy
Not a valid argument, Tim. I (and my wife) have had 30 months to get addicted to TiVo's convenience and neither of us wants to switch to HDTV without that convenience. TV's world has changed! My guess is that you're not a PVR owner.
Funny, I felt the same way until I actually got HDTV running. Now, at least 50% of the time I sit down to watch TV, I end up watch HDnet or HD HBO even if it's a bad program just because the picture is so incredible. Maybe bad HDTV is better than good STV?
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post #160 of 178 Old 02-25-2002, 07:47 AM
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hi,

i'm another one of those DTV-converts
who almost never watches NTSC, except for things
like CNN/foxnews, or the Sopranos.
i generally shun
subscription-services and that's one reason
i never bought a TIVO. however if the ReplayTV 4000
had been released before i was able to watch HDTV
i probably would have bought one of those.
now that i have access

now that i have access to 3 or 4 DTV stations every night (boston area),
i literally never watch NTSC and my two s-vhs
VCRs are useless paperweights except for recording
shows for my wife or kids. so i'm not considering
the replaytv 4000 either...

many nights there are simultaneous HD (or SD) shows which i would like to watch.
such as last night:
the rosa parks movie, and "the practice".
so i am very eager for a way to record one
OTA-DTV show while watching another! i'd prefer the recording
medium to be hard-drive or DVD, but would settle
for D-VHS if anyone were to make a D-VHS unit
with ATSC tuner built-in. i'll probably buy
whichever sort of device is released first...

thanks to DTV i find myself enjoying all sorts of network TV shows now - and i don't mind the commercials - they look fantastic when converted
to 1080i by the local affiliates.

"friends don't let friends watch NTSC!" ;)
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post #161 of 178 Old 02-25-2002, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by rudolpht


You are part of the few or two as the case may be.

Many of the people I know, my wife and I included, feel the same. We don't watch what's on, we watch what's been recorded. With our schedules we'd miss most everything, and definitely miss the stuff we like to watch together, without time shifting.

Chalk up two more for, "neither of us wants to switch to HDTV without that convenience." I imagine your evaluation of our numbers stems from your own feelings on the matter. Of course, mine is based purely on empirical evidence...

This only applies to those that already use PVRs, though. The unwashed masses don't know any better.

--Mike
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post #162 of 178 Old 02-25-2002, 11:06 AM
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Chalk up two more people who wouldn't switch to any system that didn't allow digital timeshifting ala TiVo. Had it for less than a year; it changed the television-watching paradigm. There really are a lot of us; it's not a good idea to write off both the technology and the social impact it's already had -- especially if you've not tried it (and I don't mean standing in the store playing with the menus).

I don't understand those who seem to think that people should watch HDTV over SDTV simply because it's higher quality. Oh, sure, all else being equal I agree (else I wouldn't be here); but who decided that we should value presentation so far over content, or convenience? An incredibly detailed painting is great -- but if it's a boring subject and can only be viewed at 3:30 on Thursdays, I'll be hanging a mass-produced Dali print on my wall instead...

-spc
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post #163 of 178 Old 02-25-2002, 11:22 AM
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Well why does the word *switch* keep being used? It doesnt have to be one or the other. Even with an HDTV setup you can keep doing exactly what you're doing now. But you can also take in some awesome HD programming as well. Most guys, myself included *make* time for such things as the Final Four or The Masters, or last years Playoffs and Super Bowl or certain movies and other shows. Sure week night in and week night out maybe a person cant catch all the HD dramas and sitcoms (or non HD programming, whatever they watch to begin with) in real time, so yeah PVR it the same way you do now.

Still just seems to me like the folks that dont want to "switch" just arent totally enamored with HD at this point regardless. If you're saying no tv is worth making a point to watch live, then I guess I'll just suppose you must figure no programming is worth seeing in HD at this point either.

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post #164 of 178 Old 02-25-2002, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
Well why does the word *switch* keep being used? It doesnt have to be one or the other.
Quite true; the point is that as long as it remains a choice for any given channel, SDTV will have the advantage from the standpoint of many (most?) consumers. If I had a system which offered the same programming in HDTV and SDTV, but the latter permitted timeshifting, I'd be watching 80% SDTV -- and hence the benefit of HDTV to me is low. This is exacerbated by content not being available in HDTV: move that number up to, say, 95%. Personally, this is what I'm planning to do later this year when I move from my apartment to a house and have space to build a new system; but I'll not budget more than $2k for a monitor whereas I might budget more if I could have the benefit of HDTV on more than 5% of my television watching (okay, well, to be fair, I don't watch sports, and DVDs are important to me; I'll buy a nice monitor in large part for DVDs, but the quality of most television isn't as big a deal).

My point was simply that discounting PVR capability as irrelevant to the market is shortsighted, when to many people that feature of a television system is now *more important* than HDTV quality.

-spc
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post #165 of 178 Old 02-25-2002, 11:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by scier


My point was simply that discounting PVR capability as irrelevant to the market is shortsighted, when to many people that feature of a television system is now *more important* than HDTV quality.

-spc
No thats cool. I understand that. Indeed HD has alot of wood to chop yet for more reasons than just PVR capability. Other people just want 100 channels to surf all the time and if theres only a handful of HD ones, that'll never do for them. Others feel compelled to have to archive almost everything they watch for some reason. I be like..yeah well whatever, thats fine.

I was just curious about the word switch, since it popped up like 3 times in a row and I was starting to wonder if I missed the memo stating once you got into HD, you werent allowed to timeshift any SD programming anymore! ;)

Dan

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My mind is made up.
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post #166 of 178 Old 02-25-2002, 01:05 PM
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Got a question. . .
I can tape on a cheap VHS recorder from channel 199 and 509
from a DTC100. It aint HDTV but through a DVDO iscan it aint
bad.
Just bought an Ultimate PVR. It doesn't have channel 199 and
509 as my DTC100 so I can't record. Anyone know away around
this?
Hummer
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post #167 of 178 Old 02-25-2002, 02:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by hummer
Got a question. . .
Just bought an Ultimate PVR. It doesn't have channel 199 and
509 as my DTC100 so I can't record. Anyone know away around
this? Hummer
There is no solution using the UTV. One alternative is to use a S-VHS VCR to record 199 and 509. Like you said previously it ain't HDTV but with a good S-VHS deck the picture is pretty good and it's true 16x9. You can also use the S-VHS deck for permanant archive of the UTV stuff. Crutchfield currently has one of the high-end JVC S-VHS decks on sale for $199. Not a bad deal.

Jay
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post #168 of 178 Old 02-26-2002, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by DP1
Well why does the word *switch* keep being used? It doesnt have to be one or the other
I wonder. Maybe for some people it does have to be one or the other, in a way.

What I'm saying is, if I were to start watching HD, I might turn into an HD snob, unable to enjoy upconverted NTSC because of its comparatively low quality. I dunno. Has anyone actually had this happen to them?

[Oops... Now that I've read the preceding page, I see that alexan07 and tveli have had this happen to them! :) ]

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post #169 of 178 Old 02-26-2002, 03:51 PM
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hi, i am happily a HDTV-snob but i'm fairly happy with SDTV too.
so maybe that fits
with the fact that i am also happy watching
upconverted NTSC (when the affiliate
does the upconversion rather than my TV.)
i am constantly amazed how great the
ntsc->1080i local news looks on the boston
cbs affliate channel 4.1 . their upconversion
hardware really kicks butt - i'd love to read a spec sheet about it, or whatever tech data is available.
/hdeli /tveli
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post #170 of 178 Old 02-26-2002, 09:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Llamas
Chalk up two more for, "neither of us wants to switch to HDTV without that convenience." I imagine your evaluation of our numbers stems from your own feelings on the matter. Of course, mine is based purely on empirical evidence...--Mike
I'm not a rocket scientist I'm just counting based on this thread. We are up to about 10 now. Do I know this is skewed. Of course. THIS IS AN HD RECORDING FORUM not a PVR debate forum. The only snobbery here is folks thinking HD people talking about HD recording in an HD forum is perverse should do some soul searching.

Many people want to record HD to timeshift, thus the persistence of this thread. Pissing contests of who is the earlier adopter is really minimally useful for the topic at hand. I could always go to a Tivo forum and say the mirror reverse, I will not buy a Tivo or Replay until it does HD (like my WVHS or HiPix), and then get beat up by the washed elitists. PVR users are a small sliver of the consumer electronics market with very few units relatively sp[eaking, eclipsing only HD (now). Who is right? WHO CARES. It's a personal choice. I really don't have time to play back programs so I hunt for the best quality and if there is nothing, I go back to work.

I guess I need to get a time-shifted life,
Tim

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post #171 of 178 Old 02-27-2002, 03:21 PM
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I never got an answer to my question about whether the E* HD PVR will allow recording of OTA channels if you are a DirecTV customer rather than an E* customer. Does anyone know this?

ericlhyman
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post #172 of 178 Old 02-27-2002, 03:51 PM
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I doubt that anyone knows, but an educated guess is no. IIRC, the 6000 w/OTA tuner does not allow broadcast reception unless it sees one of the Dish birds. (I don't believe, however, it actually requires a subscription.) That's really our only reference point for this.

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post #173 of 178 Old 02-27-2002, 05:01 PM
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Peter is right about the 6000 so logically one would infer that perhaps the 921 would work like that also. One possibility though would be if you're currently seeing 119 from DirecTv for their HD you could tap into the 119 side there with a proper splitter and feed the 921 that. Which would be a way of getting a Dish Network sat signal into a 921.

I'm doing the opposite now by tapping into 119 on a Dish500 to feed 119 to my DirecTv HD receiver for HDNet and HBO HD.

Dan

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post #174 of 178 Old 02-28-2002, 06:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by DP1
Well why does the word *switch* keep being used?
I should have modified my original quotation because you are, of course, correct.

My position is that I am not willing to add HD to my HD-ready setup until I can record. In my case, this recording would have to be from satellite, so I'm currently in the "hosed" category. PVR functionality would, of course, be preferred.

Quote:
Originally posted by scier
My point was simply that discounting PVR capability as irrelevant to the market is shortsighted, when to many people that feature of a television system is now *more important* than HDTV quality.
In my case, this is true because if I can't record it, I can't watch it, at least 90% of the time. I'm simply not around, or have something more pressing to attend to, when the show is aired. So, the quality is irrelevant if I can't watch it.

Quote:
Originally posted by rudolpht
I'm not a rocket scientist I'm just counting based on this thread. We are up to about 10 now. Do I know this is skewed. Of course. THIS IS AN HD RECORDING FORUM not a PVR debate forum. The only snobbery here is folks thinking HD people talking about HD recording in an HD forum is perverse should do some soul searching.

Many people want to record HD to timeshift, thus the persistence of this thread. Pissing contests of who is the earlier adopter is really minimally useful for the topic at hand. I could always go to a Tivo forum and say the mirror reverse, I will not buy a Tivo or Replay until it does HD (like my WVHS or HiPix), and then get beat up by the washed elitists. PVR users are a small sliver of the consumer electronics market with very few units relatively sp[eaking, eclipsing only HD (now). Who is right? WHO CARES. It's a personal choice. I really don't have time to play back programs so I hunt for the best quality and if there is nothing, I go back to work.

I guess I need to get a time-shifted life
I didn't make my sarcasm clear enough. My reference to empirical evidence on my part was an attempt at humor. I have no better a handle on the real numbers than you do.

The intent of my post was simply to say, just because it is not important to you, doesn't mean that it isn't important to (possibly a good number of) others. It was only your condescending (whether intended or not) implication that they (Syzygy and his wife) might be the only two that shared their opinion that made me feel the need to say anything.

I'm not sure if your second paragraph is directed at me, or not. That won't stop me from expressing my opinion, though! I probably should not have used the term PVR in my parting statement. Some other reference to time shifting (whether with PVR, DVR, or tape) would have been more appropriate. In any case, if I could get OTA signals I would be recording HD on an HTPC, right now. If I could record satellite HD onto anything (well, it would have to affordable), the same would be true. That illustrates my point about what it will take to get me, and probably a certain number of others to add HD receivers (OTA and/or DBS) to their setup. PVRs just happen to be the most elegant way of time shifting. It seems suitable that I express this opinion in a forum dedicated to recording HD.

Your last sentence in the second paragraph really confuses me. Are you saying that you would prefer to watch whatever happens to be on at the time over playing back something you chose to record? What's the difference in time spent between the two? And what you using your WVHS and HiPix card for?

If you don't need to time shift, be thankful.

Perhaps you are right (if I understand you correctly), and time-shifting, in whatever form, is not required to get most people to adopt HDTV, but at the very least it would be a major added value. I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir in this forum, though.

--Mike
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post #175 of 178 Old 02-28-2002, 07:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Llamas
Are you saying that you would prefer to watch whatever happens to be on at the time over playing back something you chose to record? What's the difference in time spent between the two? And what you using your WVHS and HiPix card for?
Mike. I hope you continue to express your opinions. I typically do only watch content that is on. It was a sad day when DirecTV went to the East Coast feed of HBO HD, because I did get poor man's time shifting with Dish already having East Coastr feed & DirecTV had left coast.

I actually find, even with Pronto-ization, timeshifting via comp or expensive tapes to be a hassle. I understand the value of PVRs though, I missed Vertical Limit in HD about 3 times already. I like to record feature films for infrequent later viewing (preferably in OAR).

Tim

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post #176 of 178 Old 02-28-2002, 09:42 PM
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This is the internet. I don't think I have the option not to say what's on my mind...
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post #177 of 178 Old 03-01-2002, 11:07 AM
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Originally posted by rudolpht
THIS IS AN HD RECORDING FORUM, not a PVR debate forum. The only snobbery here is folks thinking HD people talking about HD recording in an HD forum is perverse... [They] should do some soul searching.

Pissing contests of who is the earlier adopter is really minimally useful for the topic at hand. I could always go to a Tivo forum and say the mirror reverse, I will not buy a Tivo or Replay until it does HD (like my WVHS or HiPix), and then get beat up by the washed elitists.
I'm thinking that maybe these remarks are directed at me. If so, That's OK, although I'll admit being puzzled as to what are "washed elitists." ;)

I was an early adopter only of TiVo, and that was mainly because I trusted that the software would continually improve. (I hope I'm still right; UTV buyers made a mistake with that same assumption.)

We're really in the same boat, y'know. I too will not buy another Tivo or any other PVR until it does HD. I have only the one SA unit so far.

And I fear that all the various HD recording possibilities will be killed off by HDCP, leaving us all with the HD PVR as the only viable choice. I've been planning to build an HTPC for DVD playback and time-shifting, but that project has been on hold until I can afford an HD monitor, and now it looks like an HTPC will be useful (in the long run) only for DVDs.

(I find it interesting that you said "timeshifting via comp or expensive tapes [is] a hassle" ... I've been hearing from many sources that timeshifting via HTPCs is a hassle, and that also has tended to suppress my desire for one.)

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post #178 of 178 Old 03-01-2002, 05:59 PM
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Originally posted by Syzygy
I'm thinking that maybe these remarks are directed at me. If so, That's OK, although I'll admit being puzzled as to what are "washed elitists." ;)
I made a joking reference to the "unwashed".

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This only applies to those that already use PVRs, though. The unwashed masses don't know any better.
Without using smilies, it probably wasn't obvious that I was grinning as I wrote it. Humor without body language can fall pretty flat.
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