HD-VCR's - Mitsubishi and JVC - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 30 Old 01-16-2002, 06:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Has anyone seen or heard of the above noted HD VCR's. The quality or how they will work? I heard the the above noted companies where supposed be coming out with machines in the next month and that movies on HD-VHS tapes would follow one month later?
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post #2 of 30 Old 01-16-2002, 06:33 PM
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Lots of info in HDTV Recording, which is where this topic is moving.

'Better Living Through Modern, Expensive, Electronic Devices'

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post #3 of 30 Old 01-22-2002, 01:40 PM
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The Good Guys here in L.A. has the Mitsubishi HD2000 HD VCR for $999. They have the Mitsubishi 65859 HDTV with 1394 that goes with it for $4499. There was a full page ad in the L.A.Times devoted to this combination.

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post #4 of 30 Old 01-23-2002, 09:13 AM
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Why do Mitsu wants you to buy both VCR ($999) and TV($4500) with build-in HD tuner ??? So they can make money - right ? How many members on this forum were trying to make JVC talking to Panny STB ? With limited luck ? Because we already have money invested into one setup and instead of buying whole new setup people want the freedom to interchange brands/devices. What fueled PC industry ? The ability of people to buy a PCI based card and install it into virtually any PC and make it work with virtually any OS. In other words - THE STANDARD ! Why "consumer electronics" industry is not doing the same ? They take the IEEE 1394 from PC world and then they add some "proprietary" lingo so we can not interchange units. Com'on this is rediculous ! Panny discontinued PV-HD1000 and now some moron can charge whatever they want on e-bay for used VCR. Supply and Demand you say.... eah... This is my subjective opinion. Mitsu has a brand name recognition for RPT - good for them. I can not use their D-VHS VCR because I wanna use another brand TV and another brand STB and their D-VHS will talk only to build-in HD tuner via IEEE - they are losing money ! There is clearly demand for D-VHS out there and whoever will come out with universal D-VHS vcr (which will talk to any STB via IEEEE) will clearly make ton of money.

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post #5 of 30 Old 01-23-2002, 09:05 PM
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Hi atmosfera

Your are partly correct, but totaly misinformed.

Any( and I mean any) Mitsubishi Upgradeable HD Widescreen TV can be upgraded with the Promise Module. The Promise Module adds an internal ATSC OTA HDTV turner, IEEE1394/5C ports, DD5.1 output, and HAVI support. So the new Mitsubishi D-VHS VCR can be use with any Mitsubishi HD set. Now Mitsubishi has about a 50% market share in HDTV. They will not go broke.

The Promise Module will be available soon and one of them will be install into my WT-46807 set. I will be buying the new Mits D-VHS VCR in May before the Promise Module is released so I can beat the rush.

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post #6 of 30 Old 01-23-2002, 09:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bruce Embry
The Promise Module will be available soon and one of them will be install into my WT-46807 set.
I thought that this was a fairly expensive proposition?
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post #7 of 30 Old 01-23-2002, 11:35 PM
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Also, in theory, their D-VHS recorder can record any tuner with a 1394 output--not just the ones in their sets. Unfortunately, there aren't any others except the suspect Panasonics, which are known to talk proprietary lingo. Mitsubishi supposedly only used "open" standards in the stuff they talk between their components--EIA-775, AV/C, HAVi, DTCP. They should interoperate with others who have followed those specs are some subset thereof.

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post #8 of 30 Old 01-24-2002, 12:19 AM
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Mike-

The PVHD1000 uses a 1394 that is AV/c but the AV is mpeg2 signal as I understand. If the Mits DVHS is also mpeg2 then wouldn't the incompatible issues be control protocol? If one used a mits vcr as a playback of tapes recorded on a PVHD1000 to then record a copy (assume here there is no 5C issue) and controled each deck locally, wouldn't that work?
I know some here have experience with the JVC/Panny mix for dubbing but I don't recall any one doing the mitsubishi/ Panny mix for dubbing. I know you are up on the technoloy of these IEEE signals but doubt you have hands on experience either. Just wanted to read your thought on my questions.
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post #9 of 30 Old 01-24-2002, 11:32 AM
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Nobody, so far, had attempted to make Mitsu D-VHS deck talking to any other STB (or playing back Pannys tapes on it). It would be interesting to see if it can. I should stop by in local Tweeter and ask them to put into Mitsu one of my Panny tapes. It should be easy enough. I will let you know how it went.

The point that I was making in my previous post was : why, oh why do I have to buy Rear Projection TV w/HAVI in order to record HDTV ??? I've looked through the Mitsu 2002 catalog - the is one Direct TV STB w/IEEE which is not HDTV capable. The STB which has IEEE connector does not support HDTV, so consumer has to buy TV+module (if the TV did not have HAVI support originally) + DVHS deck in order to record HDTV. This is ton of money and lack of choices !

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post #10 of 30 Old 01-24-2002, 12:07 PM
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Look--all I know is the theory behind this stuff. I've done a hard scan through the protocol specs (not a detailed read, since I wasn't going to implement any of them). I do know that Mitsubishi used a FireWire A/V protocol stack--everything, up through HAVi and DTCP--that they bought off the shelf from a company called Vivid Logic. That company doesn't do anything but make software for embedded 1394 A/V stacks, qualifying reference implementations with testing labs.

This is quite normal--nobody rolls their own communication protocol stacks if they don't have to. When a new set of protocols comes out, it creates a whole cottage industry of little companies specializing in pre-packaged software. Writing the communications software and, most importantly, testing it for correctness is a major task, and these companies have done it already. I've worked with several such companies in porting their products into the embedded application I was working on--I'm working with a company on something similar now (though for a small-device Java engine, not a comm stack).

The problem is that Panasonic, being the first on the scene, might not have had the benefit of such pre-packaged stuff and might have had to roll their own. Who knows? But from what I've read here, people have put FireWire protocol analyzers on the buses with their products and seen chatter that wasn't part of the EIC, EIA, AV/C or 5C protocols, so they must have implemented something proprietary between their tuners and the recorders. That's not to say that the tuners or recorders won't work with anything else--experimentation here has shown that they will, to some extent.

Mitsubishi's literature talks about them having been true to the standards, so I'd be surprised if there was anything proprietary in there. I'd expect that their, Sony's and JVC's current FireWire offerings (and RCA's upcoming ones) were at least built with software that was stringently tested to interoperate with other compliant software. Whether the manufacturers strayed from compliance after they'd gotten the stacks running on their platforms with the aid of the people they bought them from...who knows? In the world of telecommunications, when you add a protocol to a product, you only do it so that it can interoperate with any other product, yours or any other manufacturers, that speaks that protocol. Telecomm customers won't tolerate anything else--if your stuff won't talk to the stuff they've already deployed, whoever they bought it from, you stand to miss many, many millions of dollars in sales. In the world of competitive A/V equipment, that type of manufacturer cooperation is probably harder to achieve. Witness the OpenCable stupidity. I think that these CE companies see adoption of too many standards as taking away their product differentiation, and to an extent, that's true. When everything has to deliver mostly the same services, you have to compete largely on external features, like esthetics and ergonomics.

My current problem with Mitsubishi's D-VHS deck is its pricing. It was introduced at the same time as JVC's and JVC's is on sale all over the place online and discounted to the point that it's no more than the list price of the Mitsubishi. Having a built-in MPEG decoder with DV-MPEG translation and component-video outputs as well as 1394/DTCP, it's considerably more powerful than the Mitsubishi. I can't even find the Mitsubishi on sale online at all--the price-search engines I use turn up zilch for it, and no portal search I've tried finds it at any online stores. So, unless one had one of the Mitsubishi sets with an integrated tuner, which has the ability to deal with the deck's HAVi stuff, I couldn't recommend purchasing the Mitsubishi deck. Even then, if you used DV-camcorders, the JVC might be a better buy.

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post #11 of 30 Old 01-25-2002, 05:53 PM
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atmosfera-

Looking forward to your report. If I see one here in town, I will try the same test. You have a good idea and I think I'll keep a DVHS HDTV recorded tape in the car so I'll have it on my travels.

Mike- Thanks for your reply. I knew you would have some good information to help me understand the issues better. I know that Richard Adams was working on the 169Time port for both DV and 8mm camcorders but never quite understood how he was planing to get that to work to record MPEG2 AV stream from the DTC-100. Then I see the actual product they came out with was the Panny port and this made sense.
I know very little about the JVC and certainly was suprised to learn about the DV / MPEG2 translator. That sounds interesting. I have a considerable investment in DVCAM hardware in my business but only one deck and one camcorder with DV 1394. The other stuff is YUV and SDI. I have never even tried to look at the 1394 from the Panny with anything except the DST50. A JVC DVHS might be a bridge to the two technologies. Thoughts?
(Just pondering ou4t loud.)
At any rate, it's all academic for me since I have no plans to acquire any of these until I see what's in store for the PVR. I may just consider that as my next item for HDTV recording. I feel it will offer me more than what a second VCR would.
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post #12 of 30 Old 01-26-2002, 02:42 PM
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Found a Mitsubishi DVHS VCR and it played a DVHS Panasonic Brand tape with DD5.1 audio recorded on the Panny system just fine complete with no audio problems and an excellent picture. Absolutely no pixelation at all. I will continue testing for signal compatibility and cross machine compatibility to see where it may have problems. I have one here now to test. :) As I get more information I will post it here.
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post #13 of 30 Old 01-26-2002, 03:50 PM
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fyi

Adams' lucky 7 questions are

1) Does Mits have DTV playback outputs for RGB and or YPrPb ?
2) Does Mits have toslink audio output?
3) In the reported test, was a DST50 used or the above mentioned deck
outputs?
4) Does the Mits deck play back HDTV through the DST50?
5) Does the Mits deck record HDTV using the DST50 as the source?
6) Playback problems on the JVC deck are reported to occur regularly though
at a much longer duration between events, i.e. 20 minutes or more between
audio or video freezes. How long was a tape watched?
7) The subject tape was DVHS. The problems reported were playing
SVHS HDTV tapes recorded on the PVHD1000. It would be most helpful to
play a HDTV SVHS tape that has playback problems in the JVC deck in a Mits
deck to see if the mits deck is an improvement .
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post #14 of 30 Old 01-26-2002, 06:03 PM
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Hold on Dave. I have the mits connected to the Panny system now and I am going through the process logically. Later I will try to address each of your questions.

There is, so far, good news and bad news. I will post details later but the good news the Mitsubishi can record the Panny PVHD1000 playback on a copy allowed tape. I first tested DVHS tape stock to give it the best shot. I am now testing old surplus stock on SVHS to test the other end of the extreme. This old surplus records fine on the Panny so let's see how it does on the Mits.
The Mitsubishi has a dual 1394 I link so that you can daisy chain recorders for a dub rack if desired and this is how I am able to monitor a recording made on the mits. I know, this is confusing but I'll explain this later.

The bad news is that the PVHD1000 registers no signal from the Mits to use the Mits as playback and the Panny as recorder. This does not work. Secondly, The Mits doesn not recognize my DST50 but I want to do some more testing on that later. This means that the Mits recorder cannot playback via 1394 into my system. The test DVHS tape recorded on the Mits plays back fine on the Panny and that is how I know it works on one direction only.

The wiring method I found that works is to connect the PVHD1000 to the MIts and the Mits to the TUDST50.
The Mitsubishi must sense the connection from the Panny and then it will list it in the menu of the 1394 network as a DVHS VCR and when the menu says digital connecting the recording can begin. According to the manual I should see the tuner listed but it does not list. When it is the only connection made nothing is in the list. So far it seems that the Mitsubishi is good for dubbing but not as a primary VCR for HDTV working into the TUDST50. People with the 51 may find different results.
Now here's the rub. With the Mitsubishi connected just to the Panny tuner, the Panny tuner can control the Mitsubishi VCR with the Panny's on screen VCR controls. It appears that there is communication between the Mitsubishi but no AV compatibility. Yet when this same tape is played back in the PVHD1000 that was recorded on the Mitsubishi it plays fine even with the wiring fed throughj the Mitsubishi's 1394 dual connections. This is good news as making a dub won't be a cable swapping operation.

OK, the SVHS old stock test is complete. One stipulation on SVHS tape that differs from the PVHD1000. You must punch out the two special holes in the shell or it will not execute the record mode in the Mitsubishi, however, the recording result is perfect so punch two holes carefully and save some money on the dubs.
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post #15 of 30 Old 01-26-2002, 06:09 PM
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Thanks for the info Don, keep it coming. Richard will look at it with the dtc100 when he can get his hands on one.

Where are these holes you talked about? Is one of them the D-VHS hole by the edge? If so, are you saying the Mits can not be used with STD S tapes? I think JVC has the same issue?

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post #16 of 30 Old 01-26-2002, 06:12 PM
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Let me see if I have enough testing done to answer most of RA's questions-

1) Does Mits have DTV playback outputs for RGB and or YPrPb ?
No. Only 1394 into a Mits TV with 1394 I/O and the usual Y/C and CVBS


2) Does Mits have toslink audio output? No

3) In the reported test, was a DST50 used or the above mentioned deck
outputs? My testing is done with a DST50

4) Does the Mits deck play back HDTV through the DST50? No
at least none of my testing has been successful in this respect.

5) Does the Mits deck record HDTV using the DST50 as the source? No, but it does control the deck. Strange, eh?

6) Playback problems on the JVC deck are reported to occur regularly though
at a much longer duration between events, i.e. 20 minutes or more between
audio or video freezes. How long was a tape watched?
At this point I was not able to play back on the mits, only record. The recorded tape was watched on the Panny for 15 minutes so far without issues.


7) The subject tape was DVHS. The problems reported were playing
SVHS HDTV tapes recorded on the PVHD1000. It would be most helpful to
play a HDTV SVHS tape that has playback problems in the JVC deck in a Mits
deck to see if the mits deck is an improvement .

I don't believe there is a question here. But, it seems there is no difference in DVHS recordings and SVHS tape stock recordings as long as the appropriate holes are punched in the shell, something we didn't need to be bothered with on the PVHD1000.
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post #17 of 30 Old 01-26-2002, 06:17 PM
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Quote:
Where are these holes you talked about?

Look at the DVHS shell and compare with the SVHS shell. There are two holes, one in the back about an inch or so in from the end and the other in the groove at the opposite end. I tried the SVHS tape and the record button was inert. This usually indicates a hole problem so I punched them out and the VCR then went right into record mode. A no brainer!
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post #18 of 30 Old 01-26-2002, 07:17 PM
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Don,

Which TU-DST50 firmware are you running?
Has your unit ever been exchanged or repaired by Panasonic to fix the "blue sparklie" problem?

Original TU-DST50 firmware is also incompatible with the JVC 30000.

Is there any way of "tricking" the Mits into recording on a DVHS tape?

Both the Panasonic and JVCs allow digital recording on SVHS tapes.

What are you using for "hole punching"?

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post #19 of 30 Old 01-26-2002, 08:16 PM
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Todd, are you sure about the jvc will record on S-vhs tape?
When I was with Richard last night, I could have swore he said he couldnt so was doing his testing on a D-VHS tape.

dave
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post #20 of 30 Old 01-26-2002, 08:22 PM
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Don, Richard is encouraged by some of your tests. Would you be happy with this deck if it could be made to work both ways with the dct100? Then it would not be tied to just the mits TV.
If Richard can get his hands on the Mits, he can do the testing like he is doing on the JVC now which is going very well!!

dave
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post #21 of 30 Old 01-26-2002, 08:41 PM
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Todd-

I bought a new FSC TUDST50 so, no it was never modified by Panasonic. I did my own cooling protection and have no problem with the sparkles.

Is there any way of "tricking" the Mits into recording on a DVHS tape? No trick to it, just how you connect it up and wait for the 1394 menu to recognize the Panisonic PVHD1000 is connected, then press record.

Both the Panasonic and JVCs allow digital recording on SVHS tapes. So does the Mits, as I said before, but with the DVHS holes punched.

What are you using for "hole punching"? I just stuck a 1/8" drill bit in the press and drilled it out using slow speed to avoid shavings being pushed into the shell. It's not all that difficult.


BTW- the old AMPEX SVHS tape I had tried was 11 year old used tape. It has some wedding footage on it I shot years ago. I think if the Mits worked with that stuff it will work with any on spec SVHS tape. I have recorded the entire 120 minute tape and have played it back on the 1000 and so far so good.

The really bad part is I can't play the mits direct through anything here.
Dave- recall my question to you and Richard about the future- well here it is. If the mits can't work into the Panasonic tuner, maybe it can through the 169Time board. I do know where there's another TUDST5? but I'll need to go check it out to see if it is a 51 or not. I'd like to test on a 51 to resolve that question. If it doesn't work on that then this is a good project goal for 169Time to resolve.
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post #22 of 30 Old 01-26-2002, 08:57 PM
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Don, here is another fyi from Richard.

Unless Don had swapped his DST50, chances are
he has the middle version of firmware. I don't know
how to tell this except to read the chips out. As I
mentioned in the past, Robert's DST50 has the same
numbers on the chips that my DST50 has, but the firmware
is different.



I know Richard would like to get all the new D-vhs decks working with the dct100. I have seen the two jvc 30000's and hopefully in a short time he will also have the 35000 going. If he could just get his hands on the mits, we may have all 5 currently shipping world wide decks working with the dtc100. Now this would be cool!!

Don, why would one want the mits deck when the jvc's are about the same price and have analog outputs?

dave
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post #23 of 30 Old 01-26-2002, 09:36 PM
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I don't know. I'm not in the business of selling either. :) In fact I hadn't planned on buying either, although having two HDTV VCR's would be nice, I agree that I would probably prefer the JVC considering the advantages. Now if I could get my hands on a JVC to test, that would be even more fun. I need to go look at the specs of the JVC. Haven't really looked at it since NAB2001.
One thing is certain, if the JVC has analog RGB outputs it would not be dependent on getting a 1394 compatibility with my DST50 to transport into the Electrohome Projector here. Last I heard the JVC was about 50% higher price than the mits, right?
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post #24 of 30 Old 01-26-2002, 09:51 PM
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Don, those are lists prices. I hear one can get the JVC for great discounts, while the Mits there are none. So the prices are very close. Talking to folks who have the JVC 35000 though, they say its picture is better than the 30000 so I would consider purchasing this from Japan to get the second generation.

I may also end up with two dtc100's since they work better than my updated dst50.


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post #25 of 30 Old 01-27-2002, 09:59 PM
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For those who are networking with 1394 as I am, here's a brief "caveat emptor." I cast (longing) eyes on a Mits HDTV several days ago, only to find that the two 1394 connectors are four-pin rather than six. If devices downstream from the TV on your 1394 daisy chain needs power from its 1394 connection, you're in for network problems. So network folks need to watch their 1394 chain configuration so as to put the HDTV at the end.

And those of us who have external 1394 hard disks for recording off the 1394 chain (before sending the edited final to a removable disk or tape) are having buffering problems too (under XP). It's a hardware thing and not joyful. If anyone knows of a solution, please speak
now....

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post #26 of 30 Old 01-28-2002, 07:48 AM
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Dave or Richard or Todd-
I checked out that other Panny tuner and unfortunately it was also a DST50 so I couldn't run the test. Sure wish I knew whether the 51 would recognize this VCR. I'll keep looking for a 51 somewhere to test.

I'll have the Mits DVHS VCR for a while longer if you need any other tests run. So far it makes a great dub recorder. I still may buy one. Do you think it would be worth $600. I think this is what I would have to pay for this one to keep it. Also, I have the manual too so if you need me to look anythiong up in it let me know.

Sunday afternoon I also checked out one on a the companion Mits HDTV monitor and the salesman was telling me they can't record direcTV off the system. He said the combo will only record OTA but not direcTV from the direcTV tuner in the mits. I didn't look too closely at what he had connected but he did have direcTV 199 displayed on the monitor yet the recording would fail. Does this mean that the mits system is known to not record HDTV from the monitor tuner? I was under the impression it would on this system. What's the story here?

Ann-
The connections on the mits and Panny stuff are all I link 4 pin connection. The computer cards are generally 6 pin 1394. Even the professional DSR series DVCAM stuff yses 4 pin 1394. I don't think you should be concerned in the HT world outside of computer connectivity. I'm sure there is a problem/concern when doing HT mix with HTPC and external computer 1394 stuff.
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post #27 of 30 Old 01-28-2002, 10:31 AM
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Don,
I made a typo.
What I meant to ask was if the Mitsubishi can be "tricked" into digital recording using SVHS tapes short of drilling holes as both the Panny and JVC are able to do.

The integrated tuners on the Mitsubishi DTVs are OTA only, ie no DirecTV tuner. Thus no ability to record DirecTV HD sources.
The "Promise Modules" will also be OTA onlt.

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post #28 of 30 Old 01-28-2002, 12:14 PM
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Todd- The Panny will recognize the SVHS tapes without the holes punched. The Mitsubishi requires the holes to be punched or it will not execute the record function. I don't know anything about how the JVC works as I don't have one.

I did perform one more test yesterday that may be significant to someone.-

I recorded a 2 hour old used SVHS tape in the mitsubishi and then checked it in the Panasonic. The I took it across town to another Mits HD2000 and played it back on that deck and it played with no problems.

I don't know of any "trick" to the Mits HD2000 to fool it into recording SVHS tape without punching the holes. I could go inside I suppose and deactivate the sensors so the deck would think that all tape inserted was DVHS shells but why? Drilling the holes is not that difficult and I could make a drilling jig for the future if I were planning to use this deck permanently.
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post #29 of 30 Old 01-28-2002, 03:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by annkennedy
For those who are networking with 1394 as I am, here's a brief "caveat emptor." I cast (longing) eyes on a Mits HDTV several days ago, only to find that the two 1394 connectors are four-pin rather than six. If devices downstream from the TV on your 1394 daisy chain needs power from its 1394 connection, you're in for network problems. So network folks need to watch their 1394 chain configuration so as to put the HDTV at the end.
I think that in this A/V 1394 networking scheme, all the devices are assumed to be stationary things that are plugged into the wall, or which can be while plugged into the network (like a DV cam). No iPod recharging :).

I guess that an stationary jukebox designed to download tracks into a portable player through FireWire while recharging it would have to have a six-contact connector on the front.

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post #30 of 30 Old 01-28-2002, 11:28 PM
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Mike-

I do have a device here that uses 6 prong power for the 1394. It is a Dazzle 1394 to analog bidirectional transcoder. No it doesn't work very well, has sync bugs but I understand the company has some of these resolved in later models. Anyway, the Dazzle can be powered from a wallwart or from the computer 1394 connection as long as using a 6 prong 1394 PCI card.
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