The Magic 8 Ball Speaks Out On TVGOS & DTV! - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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Old 01-19-2009, 05:17 PM
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Hey,
A number of "us" have had problems with the Guid Plus+ System - ATI (that came bundled for many years with ATI All-In-wonder card, TV Wonder, HDTV wonder cards etc. In the PAST periodic problems with Guid Plus were not uncommon. But unlike previously when an un-install / re-install or repair setup would have fixed things...there appears to be something wrong with the listing server. at http://www.gemstarguide.com/gdndl/gdnget.asp
This is the starting point of the process. Although you can modify the registry to point it to the current update page: http://144.198.100.134/gtidl/gdnget2.asp
without it first calling home the setup simply goes through the motions. Even when copying over the same registry settings from an exact same verision of a working Guide Plus, it makes no difference (*unless the Guide Plus had previously been activated, and simply needed a newer update page). It will download the guide but is unable to properly list them until it makes contact. I have two additional computers that have Guide Plus+ System for ATI working just as well as it ever did. They update and get the current listings. one is running the exact same version as the clean install system and the reinstall system that won't work Version 1.0.0.50. Also an additional working version 1.0.0.45

You can read more over here: http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthre...post1335765887
But even installing the Guide Plus on a "completely clean system" Guide Plus (unlike in the past) is unable to operate.
It's unknown as to whether this is just a temporary listing server problem or issue, as they have problems from time to time or something more permanent. My current hope is that the ATI - problem reports and phone calls to Macrovision 1-800-386-7380 I an others have made will get someone to look at get the server back up.

I am posting this here so that it might inform someone else who is having similar issues with Guide Plus+ system for ATi on there HTPC system as to why it is no longer working and to save them a lot of un-installing/re-installing time. Further if anyone else has seen any AMD/ATI press releases or Macrovision information pertaining specifically to ATI users, please post them here. or in the 3d rage thread. THANK YOU.

EDIT UPDATE:
Solved the problem over on rage 3d.com Site URL I listed just above.... Even though the listing server is down...possibly permanently, at this point even a clean installation or re-installtion can get Guide Plus installed and running or back up and running with all the current analog listings.
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Old 01-22-2009, 11:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken H View Post

I've not heard anything, but if I do I'll post here. The initial info referenced the word 'soon', and that was on 12/8/08.

Thanks oh great one. I suppose the likely delay of the DTV transition may also delay the release/deployment of the OTAis solution.
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Old 01-27-2009, 10:58 AM
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I hope there is a solution for those of us who want to use TVGOS in a market where the CBS affiliate has no plans to carry the Digital TV Guide On Screen data.

Our CBS affiliate has basically said that Macrovision has not approached them, they have no plans to carry it, and it is redundant since they already send out PSIP (Program and System Information Protocol) data for their programming.

Anyone else getting this type of feedback?
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Old 01-28-2009, 12:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Delivering Data to TV Guide Consumer Electronic Devices
October 2008

http://laurenstephens.net/uploads/3d927cc0e5.pdf

'Better Living Through Modern, Expensive, Electronic Devices'

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Old 01-28-2009, 09:58 PM
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Thanks Ken...Great info there.

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Old 01-29-2009, 08:37 AM
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"Gemstar TV Guide"??
What happened to Macrovision?

.
.
Abundant OTA television is what makes this country different from all others. Lets keep it this way. If you like Wi-Fi so much, OTA fits right in. After all, it is wireless.
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Old 01-29-2009, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken H View Post

Delivering Data to TV Guide Consumer Electronic Devices
October 2008

http://laurenstephens.net/uploads/3d927cc0e5.pdf

Using Tsreader Lite I examined every DTV transmission in San Diego. Only XETV-DT transmits the PID's shown in table 2 of the above referenced TVGuide document.

The list of transmissions examined is:
FOX6 23 6 -1 (XETV-DT
KFMB 7 8 -1
KGTV 25 10 -1
KPBSHD 30 15 -1
KNSD 40 39 -1
KNSDWX 40 39 2
KUSI 18 51 -1
KSWB 19 69 -1

The entire XETV PID list is too long to show here but contains:
Elementary Stream PID 272 (0x0110) Teletext/VBI
Descriptor: VBI Data Descriptor
fb 08 ed ee ef f0 cd ce cf d0

Elementary Stream PID 273 (0x0111) ISO/IEC 13818-1 private_sections
Descriptor: Registration Descriptor
Format identifier: 0x54564731 (TVG1)
Descriptor: Private Data Indicator Descriptor
64 61 74 61 data

Elementary Stream PID 274 (0x0112) ISO/IEC 13818-1 private_sections
Descriptor: Registration Descriptor
Format identifier: 0x54564732 (TVG2)
Descriptor: Private Data Indicator Descriptor
64 61 74 61 data

Note that the format identifiers for TVG1 and TVG2 are identical to those shown tn Table 2.

The tuner card used is the Hauppauge HVR 1800 PCI which demodulates ATSC and QAM. The card is connected to an UHF bowtie and to TWC analog cable.
Unfortunately Tsreader refuses to work with the QAM mode of the HVR 1800 although the Tsreader compatible card list shows that it should and the proper Tsreader Haupauge dll is loaded. When I can get this problem sorted out I will examine the cable clear QAM of the local broadcasts carried in TWC cable.

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Old 01-31-2009, 08:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken H View Post

Delivering Data to TV Guide Consumer Electronic Devices
October 2008

http://laurenstephens.net/uploads/3d927cc0e5.pdf

Ken, Thanks much for the info.

For those CE units that rely on analog VBI info and that cannot decode digital TVGOS (I guess if we're OTA, we'll find out if we fit in that category on 2/18), this document appears to address cable. What happens on 2/18? Do we need to get a DTVPAL?

P.S. Is there any way for consumers to find out if their device supports the digital streams or only supports decoding analog VBI?
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Old 01-31-2009, 08:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catmother View Post

The card is connected to an UHF bowtie and to TWC analog cable. Unfortunately Tsreader refuses to work with the QAM mode of the HVR 1800 although the Tsreader compatible card list shows that it should and the proper Tsreader Haupauge dll is loaded. When I can get this problem sorted out I will examine the cable clear QAM of the local broadcasts carried in TWC cable.

Great info Peter, however, I'm wondering if (with TWC analog cable) you actually get any digital clear-QAM?
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Old 01-31-2009, 09:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwall23 View Post

Great info Peter, however, I'm wondering if (with TWC analog cable) you actually get any digital clear-QAM?

Local HD.

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Old 02-01-2009, 08:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwall23 View Post

Great info Peter, however, I'm wondering if (with TWC analog cable) you actually get any digital clear-QAM?

Ken is correct.

Yes, TWCSD transmits the local channels as clear QAM and as analog also.
In fact on the HDD250 each local broadcast shows up 4 times in the TVGOS. Analog OTA, DTV OTA, analog cable and DTV cable. An embarrasment of riches ?

Now as to tsreader, it still refuses to work with the HVR-1800 but it is now working with a WinTV-HVR-950Q. Because I don't have the cable channel mapping it is tedious to find the clear QAM channels in tsreader but I have located XETV and KGTV (NBC). So far no TVG PID data has shown up.

Here is the tsreader data for XETV CW6:
Program Number: 2006
PCR on PID 69 (0x0045)
PMT Version: 29
Service name:

Stream Type: 0x02 MPEG-2 Video
Elementary Stream PID 69 (0x0045)

Stream Type: 0x81 AC-3 Audio
Elementary Stream PID 72 (0x0048)

Stream Type: 0x81 AC-3 Audio
Elementary Stream PID 73 (0x0049)

Descriptor: Registration Descriptor
Format identifier: 0x43554549 (CUEI)

Double clicking the thumbnail brings up the VLC player and there is CW6 playing live on the monitor.

Turns out the above is TWCSD analog as evidenced by the 5Mbs rate. But I now have XETV (CW6) DT. Tsreader tuner 91 (627 MHz) 14.56 Mbs and behold the TVG1 and TVG2 VBI data is present. This is the PID for TCG1:
Elementary Stream PID 2902 (0x0b56) ISO/IEC 13818-1 private_sections
Descriptor: Registration Descriptor
Format identifier: 0x54564731 (TVG1)
Descriptor: Private Data Indicator Descriptor
64 61 74 61 data

This convinces me that the XETV digital TVG data is passed by TWCSD.
And VLC player clearly shows XETV-DT as DTV.

Note to Ken H ... is this the proper thread for this info ? . I will link to this post in the Sony HDD 250/500 thread.

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Old 02-03-2009, 11:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catmother View Post

Ken is correct.

Yes, TWCSD transmits the local channels as clear QAM and as analog also.
In fact on the HDD250 each local broadcast shows up 4 times in the TVGOS. Analog OTA, DTV OTA, analog cable and DTV cable. An embarrasment of riches ?

Now as to tsreader, it still refuses to work with the HVR-1800 but it is now working with a WinTV-HVR-950Q. Because I don't have the cable channel mapping it is tedious to find the clear QAM channels in tsreader but I have located XETV and KGTV (NBC). So far no TVG PID data has shown up.

Here is the tsreader data for XETV CW6:

TSReader reads mpeg transport streams
Quote:


Program Number: 2006
PCR on PID 69 (0x0045)
PMT Version: 29
Service name:

Stream Type: 0x02 MPEG-2 Video
Elementary Stream PID 69 (0x0045)

Stream Type: 0x81 AC-3 Audio
Elementary Stream PID 72 (0x0048)

Stream Type: 0x81 AC-3 Audio
Elementary Stream PID 73 (0x0049)

Descriptor: Registration Descriptor
Format identifier: 0x43554549 (CUEI)

Double clicking the thumbnail brings up the VLC player and there is CW6 playing live on the monitor.

And that looks like data from TSReader, just like the one I used to use
Quote:


Turns out the above is TWCSD analog as evidenced by the 5Mbs rate.

Please provide a link to where you got that idea from. I'M QUITE INTERESTED. If I didn't know any better, I would call it digital SD.
Quote:


But I now have XETV (CW6) DT. Tsreader tuner 91 (627 MHz) 14.56 Mbs and behold the TVG1 and TVG2 VBI data is present. This is the PID for TCG1:
Elementary Stream PID 2902 (0x0b56) ISO/IEC 13818-1 private_sections
Descriptor: Registration Descriptor
Format identifier: 0x54564731 (TVG1)
Descriptor: Private Data Indicator Descriptor
64 61 74 61 data

This convinces me that the XETV digital TVG data is passed by TWCSD.
And VLC player clearly shows XETV-DT as DTV.

That, I agree with (TGFQ)
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Old 02-04-2009, 05:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwall23 View Post

TSReader reads mpeg transport streams. And that looks like data from TSReader, just like the one I used to use. Please provide a link to where you got that idea from. I'M QUITE INTERESTED. If I didn't know any better, I would call it digital SD.

You are right. Chalk it up to my inexperience with Tsreader. Program 2006 is indeed digital SD. Excerpt:
Elementary Stream PID 69 (0x0045) MPEG-2 Video
MPEG Video: Bitrate 15.000 Mbps Resolution 528 x 480i
MPEG Video: Framerate 29.97 fps Aspect Ratio 4:3 Chroma Format 4:2:0.

The resolution misled me. At the outset I was under the impression that tsreader does not decode NTSC transmissions and then thought perhaps it did. The first impression must be correct.
Your opinion please...

Are there any utilities that decode NTSC data streams ?

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Old 02-04-2009, 11:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catmother View Post

Are there any utilities that decode NTSC data streams ?

TV sets with analog tuners. Seriously though, there is no data stream in an NTSC broadcast, since it's analog. Wiki on NTSC
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Old 02-05-2009, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwall23 View Post

TV sets with analog tuners. Seriously though, there is no data stream in an NTSC broadcast, since it's analog. Wiki on NTSC

Sorry, bad wording on my part.
What we need is Windows (or Linux) software to extract the VBI data from the demodulated Vestigial sideband video and decompose this into the teletext and Gemstar components. This software should operate with current capture devices such as the Hauppauge HVR series or the Kworld TVPlus or even the ATI 650.

The object is to ascertain the presence of TVGOS data during the VBI.

A casual web search shows many such capture devices for industrial use but no simple PC solution.

While the Sony HDD250/500 service menus will show the precense of VBI packets, it does not discriminate between teletext and Gemstar data.

Oh, well, we will know soon enough. All the San Diego broadcasters have reported that their analog transmitters will shutdown on Feb 17.
http://www.sbe36.org/index.php?optio...d=278&Itemid=1

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Old 02-07-2009, 06:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catmother View Post

Sorry, bad wording on my part.
What we need is Windows (or Linux) software to extract the VBI data from the demodulated Vestigial sideband video and decompose this into the teletext and Gemstar components. This software should operate with current capture devices such as the Hauppauge HVR series or the Kworld TVPlus or even the ATI 650.

The object is to ascertain the presence of TVGOS data during the VBI.

A casual web search shows many such capture devices for industrial use but no simple PC solution.

While the Sony HDD250/500 service menus will show the precense of VBI packets, it does not discriminate between teletext and Gemstar data.

Oh, well, we will know soon enough. All the San Diego broadcasters have reported that their analog transmitters will shutdown on Feb 17.

If you don't mind, I'd like to point out some technical issues.

VBI stands for Vertical Blanking Interval. Vestigial is a nice term, but has nothing to do with anything here...cannot be demodulated and is a term used to describe the sideband which is below the original carrier frequency and is deleted before transmission because it is redundant.

The Sony CAN discriminate between tele-text and Gemstar content.

And for bwall 23, there IS digital data in the VBI of analogue signals, usually for the closed captions. You can sometimes see it at the top of the sceen...the little white lines that seem to 'dance' around.
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Old 02-07-2009, 08:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by linkstur View Post

bwall 23, there IS digital data in the VBI of analogue signals, usually for the closed captions. You can sometimes see it at the top of the sceen...the little white lines that seem to 'dance' around.

linkstur, understand what you're trying to say, but it's broadcast in analog form and requires signal manipulation by a receiver to convert it to digital format. One could easily view it with an O'Scope or an older analog set with a vertical hold adjustment.
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Old 02-08-2009, 02:15 AM
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Old 02-08-2009, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by linkstur View Post

If you don't mind, I'd like to point out some technical issues.

VBI stands for Vertical Blanking Interval. Vestigial is a nice term, but has nothing to do with anything here...cannot be demodulated and is a term used to describe the sideband which is below the original carrier frequency and is deleted before transmission because it is redundant.

Not so. The lower (vestigial sideband) is transmitted. See here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NTSC and here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vestigial_sideband
See :Spectrum of a System M television channel with NTSC color" chart
(Courtesy bwall23)

Also, vestigial sideband modulation is a generic term used in NTSC to denote the modulation technique used, much as 8VSB is used to characterize the ATSC modulation technique.

When I referred to demodulating vestigial sideband it meant demodulating the transmitted NTSC signal, not just the lower sideband.

But enough of this, it is OT. This thread deals with TVGOS and I go not want to venture to far into extraneous territory, interesting though it may be.

I will post Feb 18 on the state of TVGOS in San Diego since all local broadcasters here have decided to shutdown their analog transmitters midnight Feb 17 with the possible exception of KPBS to allow 'pledge month' to be received by the 7% of the local market that decided to ignore 5 years of warnings.

My TVGOS equipped devices: HDD250 DVR, Sharp LC-37D5U LCD TV, Sony RDR-HX900 HDD/DVD recorder.

One of my sources: http://www.archive.org/details/telev...anda00natirich
I have this book.
http://www.archive.org/stream/televi...anda00natirich

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Old 02-08-2009, 12:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catmother View Post

...with the possible exception of KPBS to allow 'pledge month' to be received by the 7% of the local market that decided to ignore 5 years of warnings.

Yeah - ironic, since those are the people they're least likely to get any money from.
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Old 02-08-2009, 01:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catmother View Post

Not so. The lower (vestigial sideband) is transmitted.

If you read the link that you posted, it says "Like most AM signals, the video carrier generates two sidebands, one above the carrier and one below. The sidebands are each 4.2 MHz wide. The entire upper sideband is transmitted, but only 750 kHz of the lower sideband, known as a vestigial sideband, is transmitted."

I've been a video engineer for 25 years and it has always irrated me when people thought they knew what they were talking about. I realize it's OT and won't say anything more about it.
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Old 02-08-2009, 10:26 PM
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I hope this doesn't start a riot, but it LOOKS like someone from Houston may be getting v7 TVGOS setup data for his analog unit from the converted signal from his DTVPal...if he has actual program data tomorrow, that would be a felicitous first!
Cf. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...6#post15771516
in the LG3410a thread, where we have been watching carefully for this...

OTA only. For signal strength at your location: FCC DTV reception map
TVGOS data: Sony 250 from 5.1?, LG3410a from my DTVPal setup here, not any more.

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Old 02-09-2009, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by linkstur View Post

.

The sidebands are each 4.2 MHz wide. The entire upper sideband is transmitted, but only 750 kHz of the lower sideband, known as a vestigial sideband, is transmitted."

I am well aware of that. But in your earlier post you stated the lower sideband was deleted
That wording to me deleted means that there is no lower sideband transmitted at all. I took that literally.

I questioned your statement, not necessarily your knowledge.

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Old 02-09-2009, 02:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catmother View Post

What we need is Windows (or Linux) software to extract the VBI data from the demodulated Vestigial sideband video and decompose this into the teletext and Gemstar components. This software should operate with current capture devices such as the Hauppauge HVR series or the Kworld TVPlus or even the ATI 650.

The object is to ascertain the presence of TVGOS data during the VBI.

A casual web search shows many such capture devices for industrial use but no simple PC solution.

this brings up a fascinating question. is there any software currently available that could "read" the TVGOS stream from the capture device or a dump file and then display it in human readable format? as a matter of fact is there any specification of TVGOS available anywhere or is it a closed system? i did manage to look at some jpegs (JFIF header) with TSReader but it would be fun to play with it more.

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Old 02-09-2009, 05:50 PM
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I have DTVPal CECB configured in TVGOS mode with a Panasonic DMR-E95H DVR (analog TVGOS 7).

Until today, all I got was a message "There has been an error retrieving data" and no host channel and no apparent transmission of data that I could recognize on the diagnostics screens.

Today, I still have no lineup and no schedule, but the message changed to "No data available". The diagnostics has a host channel 0x28000028 (28 hex = 40 dec = our CBS affiliate). There is also about a thousand of received TypeB records (and a matching number of records in the 'Dummy' row). There is also a last update date of 2/9/09.

I can't really interpret the diagnostics precisely, but there is definitely stuff coming in that has not been coming in before.

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Portland, Oregon
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Old 02-09-2009, 06:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avnstf View Post

I hope this doesn't start a riot, but it LOOKS like someone from Houston may be getting v7 TVGOS setup data for his analog unit from the converted signal from his DTVPal...if he has actual program data tomorrow, that would be a felicitous first!

No!

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Old 02-09-2009, 06:28 PM - Thread Starter
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I have no problem with a dedicated TVGOS topic, probably in the HDTV Technical forum, and we could link to it.

'Better Living Through Modern, Expensive, Electronic Devices'

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Old 02-09-2009, 06:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oregonalex View Post


I can't really interpret the diagnostics precisely, but there is definitely stuff coming in that has not been coming in before.

No!

'Better Living Through Modern, Expensive, Electronic Devices'

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Old 02-09-2009, 07:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oregonalex View Post

I can't really interpret the diagnostics precisely, but there is definitely stuff coming in that has not been coming in before.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken H View Post

No!

What do you mean, No? I see it with my own eyes. It may have always been transmitted by the station, but today is the first time MY DVR has ever shown the host channel as anything else than 0x00000000 and has shown any TypeB records received (more now than in the morning):

http://www.cyber-strategy.org/priv/p1.jpg

http://www.cyber-strategy.org/priv/p2.jpg

Sorry about the PQ.

Alex
Portland, OR
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Old 02-09-2009, 07:51 PM
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Originally Posted by avnstf View Post

I hope this doesn't start a riot, but it LOOKS like someone from Houston may be getting v7 TVGOS setup data for his analog unit from the converted signal from his DTVPal...if he has actual program data tomorrow, that would be a felicitous first!
Cf. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...6#post15771516
in the LG3410a thread, where we have been watching carefully for this...

yes!

today this guy has a picture from his Panasonic DVD recorder that has program listings and the TV Guide logo!!!
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...9#post15775079

OTA only. For signal strength at your location: FCC DTV reception map
TVGOS data: Sony 250 from 5.1?, LG3410a from my DTVPal setup here, not any more.

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