The Official AVS Dish DTVPal DVR Topic! - Page 102 - AVS Forum
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post #3031 of 18488 Old 02-18-2009, 12:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Servicetech571 View Post

Hopefully the inability to set a manual M-F timer will be addressed also. The odd thing is mine used to work until I had to rescan the channels for the DTV switchover, now I just get an error message when trying to set a M-F timer.

When I tried to enter M-F timers for simultaneous recording of Leno and Letterman it let me do one but not the other. But for the one it wouldn't let me do, it did let me enter 5 weekly timers for Mon Tues Wednes Thurs Fri. Obviously a bug in the firmware.
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post #3032 of 18488 Old 02-18-2009, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by s73v3 View Post

If my experiment works out, "choking" the power cord will be a "sweet" fix.

Choking Dish for not designing it properly to start with would be much "sweeter". n'est-ce pas?

- kelson h

The bitterness of poor quality lasts long after the sweetness of the low price is forgotten . . . life is too short to drink bad wine

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post #3033 of 18488 Old 02-18-2009, 01:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Servicetech571 View Post

Hopefully the inability to set a manual M-F timer will be addressed also. The odd thing is mine used to work until I had to rescan the channels for the DTV switchover, now I just get an error message when trying to set a M-F timer.

Same problem here...

Eastern NC.
Come on Plasma and LCD guys!...you know that the DLP format is better!...& You can be format neutral if you want but the war is over...BluRay won!
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post #3034 of 18488 Old 02-18-2009, 01:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Since dtvpal.com is sold out, I've added dishdepot.com to the first post.
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post #3035 of 18488 Old 02-18-2009, 01:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by otaguy View Post

I found the Radio Shack ferrite Snap Choke Core EMI/RFI filters (Model 273-069) that have been discussed at my local bricks and mortar store. Cost was $2.99 plus tax for a pack of 2. I had printed out a page from Radio Shack's website to hand to the clerk at RS which was good because they had them hidden in a drawer of miscellaneous parts. So my plan is to install one on the power cord and one on the coax coming in to the unit. Also I will burn some incense as a previous poster advised and chant "RFI begone! RFI begone!" several times to bring good karma to the installation. Also I will do a factory reset.

The ac cord is a tad too fat for this choke to close around it properly - I had to use tape to install it over the cord. I'm heading out later to a larger electronics store to find a larger choke.

BTW I put both chokes on the cord, and maybe I had a longer period before the reboots started, but it's hard to say - in any event, the reboots were still happening. Further report to follow after I put on larger chokes and rearrange a few more things behind the TV . . .
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post #3036 of 18488 Old 02-18-2009, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by s73v3 View Post

I think what may be happening is that all these devices that are emitting RFI noise are not synchronous. So sometimes the several spikes will occur simultaneously and be additive. So I think the effects will not be predictable and occur random-like. Also I think external factors from outside the home would be minimal. The RFI radiation decreases by the square of the distance and were not talking about huge signals. It may get picked up by house wiring though.

Thanks

Bob
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post #3037 of 18488 Old 02-18-2009, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pesky1 View Post

One nitpick about the statement:

Power decreases by the inverse square but it is the amplitude of the field which causes the problem. Field strength is related to the inverse square root of the distance. For example, at twice the distance the field is determined through dividing by the square root of 2. Far field only.

Opps.. Yea that's it. Non-linear

It was over 40 years ago that I went to that school.
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post #3038 of 18488 Old 02-18-2009, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by allanlaw View Post

The ac cord is a tad too fat for this choke to close around it properly - I had to use tape to install it over the cord. I'm heading out later to a larger electronics store to find a larger choke.

Six or more loops in the power cord works better at keeping RF off a wire than those ferrite chokes do. If you have enough slack in the power cord, loop it and use zip ties or something to keep the loops intact. This is an old trick hams use when they want to keep RF off the outer conductor of a coax.

But as has been said before, the filtering already in the power supply (to get UL and FCC listing) does a far better job keeping the RF out of the unit than loops or ferrite beads can.
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post #3039 of 18488 Old 02-18-2009, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by lewlew View Post

DM2006RI-

How did your machine act on the 5th, 6th, 7th, & 8th pass over the "problem" spot?

Lew, I stopped at #4 because I ended up sending it back.

Got my new unit (a brand new version) and literally just hooked it up...after 5 minutes it seems to be behaving better than the old one, but obviously, I've got a lot of testing to go and I'm hoping it just works better than what I had.
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post #3040 of 18488 Old 02-18-2009, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by bfdtv View Post

Since dtvpal.com is sold out, I've added dishdepot.com to the first post.

Maybe they really are sold out, but is it possible that they've just stopped selling new units because they're tired of having the old ones returned? Perhaps a "new stock" will magically appear once the firmware update comes out that (we all hope) fixes the central issues.
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post #3041 of 18488 Old 02-18-2009, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by rjwerth View Post

The tech said that they are very aware of the issue and are confident the next software release should fix the problem.

If I had a dollar for every time I was told that by a first level CSR and ATS rep during my 8+ years with Dish I could buy a few TIVO HD DVRs with lifetime subscriptions and still have enough left over for a nice flat screen.

The further this goes the more Dish's history repeats itself.

Paraphrasing the Edmund Burke quote... those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it must be the Dish corporate philosophy.
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post #3042 of 18488 Old 02-18-2009, 03:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b.e.wilson View Post


But as has been said before, the filtering already in the power supply (to get UL and FCC listing) does a far better job keeping the RF out of the unit than loops or ferrite beads can.

True, but remember these are made in China and the power supply board is probably OEM'd by someone other than Echostar for less than $5. Who knows how well their manufacturing process is. Remember the bad capacitor issue a few years back? Maybe the "K" units where the ones used for certification and the "L" units have wimpy onboard RFI filtering. For sure the jury is still out and preliminary testing using chokes is not conclusive. Experimenting is still on going.
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post #3043 of 18488 Old 02-18-2009, 03:46 PM
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Dishbag gave us a big hint by suggesting that the power cord should be routed directly to the wall socket. For the life of me I cannot fathom why they would say this unless the problem were rf related. They must have guilty knowledge of this or something of similar nature. The power cord could be shielded somewhat effectively by slipping tubular braid over the cord and tying it off to the ground on the wall fixture. That carries some uncertainties depending on what is recognized as "ground" but it should offer some protection. If it makes the problem worse just slip off the shield and no harm no foul.
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post #3044 of 18488 Old 02-18-2009, 04:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b.e.wilson View Post

Six or more loops in the power cord works better at keeping RF off a wire than those ferrite chokes do. If you have enough slack in the power cord, loop it and use zip ties or something to keep the loops intact. This is an old trick hams use when they want to keep RF off the outer conductor of a coax.

OK, I got a couple larger rectangular RF chokes at RS (273-104) and looped the ac cord through 2 of them (near the unit). I also put another choke around the coax (273-0105). The tests are on for tonight - let the games begin . . .

ps I have no optimism about this at all.

4:30pm (PST) Test begins. Reset counter set to 0, unit playing Live TV (local ABC, signal meter 100, running 1080i through component video, stereo through analog cords), ac cord goes directly into the wall (outlet tested to have good ground and correct polarity) through a very thick 3-piece extension cord.

6:00 No reboots yet. Continuing program as noted above (Live TV, etc.).

7:15 Ditto.

8:26 Watched an entire recorded episode of CSI: Miami without mishap. Many skip-ahead keystrokes. Might not sound like much, but usually a one hour program is good for at least 3 reboots and/or a sound drop-out followed by a lock-up.

8:50 Watching the Laker game on Live TV. Used the Guide to set Letterman and Leno to record tonight, along with Carson Daly.

10:05 Lakers won - still no reboots, etc. That's it for tonight's test. I'll check on the overnight recordings tomorrow morning. More complex usage to come. So far, I'm liking ferrite . . .

Testing, Day 2

8:45am All recordings from last night were complete and look ok on a quick spot check (I've got Leno running all the way through right now). TVGOS was fully repopulated last night, another channel was added and the cycle counter remained at 0, so no reboots.

10:40-11:24 There was a reboot while playing back last night's Letterman at about 30 minutes into the program. First reboot in almost 10 hours of power-on operation. This was followed by 2 more reboots. Switched back to Live TV and the reboots have stopped. It is interesting that Leno played back in its entirety, but Letterman seems to have a problem half-way through.

3:18pm Recorded another program while Live TV was set to another channel, then played back the recording, then left it on Live TV. No additional reboots. Maybe something was in the Letterman recording that caused a problem on playback. To summarize, the only reboots in the last (almost) 24 hours have occurred during the playback of one recording. This is FAR better than what I was getting before adding the ferrite cores. More to come.

9:38 Off for the night. Live since last notation, and no reboots. Note that the unit was left power on all day. Either the ferrite cores had a very positive effect on operation, or something else happened in the same time frame. It is always possible that something changed in the TVGOS transmission in the Southern California area (2/17 of course being a magic date) and TVGOS is the root of all evil in this story, but never the less, I can recommend trying some RF abatement just for fun - it's pretty cheap and can't hurt.

Testing, Day 3

8:30am - 10:39 No reboots overnight. I set one program to record, and left Live TV on another channel. All was going well until I went to the Guide to check something out. When I went back to Live TV the sound was off and, of course, when I hit the channel change up button the unit froze. This is the first mishap since the reboots during the replay of Letterman.

I'm closing this off at this point. My conclusion is still that the ferrite chokes may have substantially improved the stability of the unit, but there is some coding problems that cause audio dropout that leads to freezes, as well as some recording anamolies. It certainly looks less like a remaining hardware issue. BTW I have an email in to the local CBS station to find out if they did something between Feb. 17 and Feb. 18 that would affect the TVGOS data stream over their ATSC signal.
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post #3045 of 18488 Old 02-18-2009, 05:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b.e.wilson View Post

Six or more loops in the power cord works better at keeping RF off a wire than those ferrite chokes do. If you have enough slack in the power cord, loop it and use zip ties or something to keep the loops intact. This is an old trick hams use when they want to keep RF off the outer conductor of a coax.

But as has been said before, the filtering already in the power supply (to get UL and FCC listing) does a far better job keeping the RF out of the unit than loops or ferrite beads can.


Its even better when you loop around a U shaped ferrite core. I really doubt going down this route is going to be fruitfull. There is no noise on my ac lines and I am also running a huge monster power reference powerline conditioner.
I know you all want to believe you can just snap a choke on and all will be bliss, but the problem just isn't that simple. Save your money.

If there is a problem with EMI, its more than likely generated inside the box rather than being coupled to the outside for reasons already discussed.
..HM
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post #3046 of 18488 Old 02-18-2009, 06:21 PM
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Now, TiVo is alleging that the DISH's "workaround" software does still violate its patent after all, and it's asking a U.S. District Court Judge in Texarcana, Texas to sort it out. If this latest round plays out as TiVo hopes, DISH could be forced to disable most, if not all, of its DVRs, and potentially buy new DVRs that don't infringe on TiVo's patents.

Please just fix the reboot problem in a hurry so I don't have to worry about loosing recording features when updating to the new "FIX"
Word to the wise, disconnect the internet port. Who knows if they will try and push an update.

http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/18/t...ther-patent-d/
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post #3047 of 18488 Old 02-18-2009, 08:44 PM
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Originally Posted by becat View Post


I am noticing that PSIP data that I only get seems to be populating a little better. Also, for some reason one of my channels has changed it's number. It use to be 009-01 and now it is 070-01. Strange.

My channel 007-01 went to 070-01 and channel 009-01 went to 071-01. I lost channel 009-01 when the switchover happened, and had to rescan. Later, 007-01 changed on its own... The other channels are fine.
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post #3048 of 18488 Old 02-18-2009, 09:11 PM
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Well, after not visiting this forum for at least a month, I thought I would see
if the situation had improved, and maybe those now living in digital only land
would have good things to report.

Instead I find out TiVo is on the attack again. Now, fearing that the product may
go away, I am thinking it is time to grab one from SolidSignal before they are gone.

Darn; I do hope lawsuits do not distract Echostar from working out a suitable
firmware upgrade. And, I guess I just have to order and hope to be one of the chosen
where the machine works as advertised.

Very interesting thread; thanks to all of the contributors.
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post #3049 of 18488 Old 02-18-2009, 09:16 PM
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Got my (new) replacement unit today...and so far, it's a massive improvement. Not one lock-up or reboot, and I've watched/recorded 2 shows, and watched another hour of live TV with it. Considering my earlier unit froze after less than a minute of being initially turned on, and locked up multiple times in the span of 30 minutes on any kind of viewing, that is a tremendous difference, needless to say.

One particular thing I've noticed that is different from my earlier DVR, is not just in the lack of lock-up/reboots, but also that there's NO "TV Guide" logo on my Guide screen this time.

On my earlier unit, I had the TV Guide logo on the Guide screen, but guide information was never completely filled in on some channels...not after it being on for several days.

This time, though, minus the TV Guide logo, not only do I have full listings on all of my channels, but I received them quickly, after just a few minutes of the DVR being on. This is a huge change from the behavior of my earlier box, and there's no difference in my set-up...everything is the same except for the unit itself being switched out in the rack.

I just found it to be something of note, because I knew to check for the TV Guide logo (to see if it was TVGOS data) with my earlier DVR, and it was definitely there before...but it's not there now with my new DVR. And yet this unit is working fine whereas my other unit was a disaster right from the get-go. Coincidence? Maybe. But I always suspected the problem wasn't whether or not these DVRs were being plugged into the wall or a power supply, but rather how it behaved with the OTA guide data it can bring in.

Perhaps something has happened with the local stations I receive and how they are transmitting the guide data -- and I'm in an overlapping area with both Providence and Boston channels being available, so anything is possible -- but either way, I can only say this box is behaving FAR, far better than my earlier unit, and the only discernable difference I can see is the lack of a "TV Guide" logo on the Guide screen this time.

Just to clarify -- I did update the firmware to the newer version, disabled updates and made sure to enter 00000 for zip code. Both boxes were "L" versions.
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post #3050 of 18488 Old 02-18-2009, 10:45 PM
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I also suspect the TVGOS as being the cause of reboots and lockups.
I had not been getting TVGOS and after emailing the local CBS station, they said they had problems, but now are transmitting. So I then talked to Dish chat, and they said that I would need to factory reset and rescan channels. This forces the unit to go out and try to find the TVGOS station again, and download it. after doing this I started getting the TVGOS, but along with that I started getting reboots and hangs again, I thought I had that fixed after deleting weak channels.
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post #3051 of 18488 Old 02-19-2009, 03:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DM2006RI View Post

Got my (new) replacement unit today...and so far, it's a massive improvement. Not one lock-up or reboot, and I've watched/recorded 2 shows, and watched another hour of live TV with it. Considering my earlier unit froze after less than a minute of being initially turned on, and locked up multiple times in the span of 30 minutes on any kind of viewing, that is a tremendous difference, needless to say.

One particular thing I've noticed that is different from my earlier DVR, is not just in the lack of lock-up/reboots, but also that there's NO "TV Guide" logo on my Guide screen this time.

On my earlier unit, I had the TV Guide logo on the Guide screen, but guide information was never completely filled in on some channels...not after it being on for several days.

This time, though, minus the TV Guide logo, not only do I have full listings on all of my channels, but I received them quickly, after just a few minutes of the DVR being on. This is a huge change from the behavior of my earlier box, and there's no difference in my set-up...everything is the same except for the unit itself being switched out in the rack..

I expect what you are experiencing is a fresh factory reset box that has been firmware updated,(I think you said you updated the firmware to 202), but the box has not yet been exposed to the TVGOS stream yet because you have updates disabled.
I don't have the TV Guide logo showing either because I am sill at firmware 201. Had updates enabled but after the last factory reset I turned it off and put all 0's in the zip. No lockups or reboots to speak of.

It will be ok for a while, but when you start to add timers and such, you will see the reboots slowly creep in again.

Now I'm scared to send my unit back to dish as it might come back missing a few features because of the law suit. Who knows what dish and tivo have going on behind the scenes. Maybe this is why v203 of the firmware is taking so long. They are rewriting the software that lets you record one channel and watch another to comply with the law suit. Then they will push this new firmware on us as an only "fix" to the lockups and avoid having to settle with Tivo in the process.
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post #3052 of 18488 Old 02-19-2009, 04:26 AM
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I checked yesterday to see what had changed. I'm between two markets with 6 stations each. One channel from Harrisburg turned off analog (CW-15) and one from Baltimore (MyN-24).
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post #3053 of 18488 Old 02-19-2009, 06:17 AM
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tpt was making some changes yesterday and to make a long story longer, I sat down last night to watch some shows and when I turned the box on it said there were new channels, so it looks like this thing goes out and finds new channels, maybe it tied to the tv guide somehow, I just find it weird that it found new channels without me telling it to do so.

But it does seem to be working anyway so thats a good thing.

Jay
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post #3054 of 18488 Old 02-19-2009, 07:56 AM
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tpt was making some changes yesterday and to make a long story longer, I sat down last night to watch some shows and when I turned the box on it said there were new channels, so it looks like this thing goes out and finds new channels, maybe it tied to the tv guide somehow, I just find it weird that it found new channels without me telling it to do so.

But it does seem to be working anyway so thats a good thing.

Jay

First couple of days, my DVR did the same thing. I did not want some of the channels which were acquired so I deleted them. The box was stubborn and reacquired them. Second go around was the charm and DVR did what I instructed.

Day 5 and counting with no reboots. The sole fix was move the power plug two inches and insert into the same wall circuit as the TV. This PAL DVR is really neat.

Something I forgot to mention to all. Power lines carry rf signals containing power meter data. Also, some folks use power lines to transmit telephone signals via special adapters which plug into the phone and AC wall plug.
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post #3055 of 18488 Old 02-19-2009, 08:04 AM
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Today is 90 days from first pre-order date. I ordered 2 units then and today to be sure of warranty date, I called Dish. After a while (90 min) got an agent to tell me that the Warranty is 1 year if ordered direct from Dish. She checked with supervisor when I suggested she was wrong. She reafirmed 1 year from ORDER date if bought from Dish. I still dont believe it.
When asked the reason for call I explained that I had some lock ups and reboots. Actually only about 5 between the two units - all in the last two weeks. As noted by others this is a pattern that may get worse and I want to be sure I have the option of a replacement 90 days from DELIVERY not pre order. She also gave me two RA numbers for a return(good for 30 days)
Since nobody has past 90 days from either order or delivered date do we know what date they will use if I return my units after today (90 days from pre order) and before March 26 (90 days from delivery)? Or the 1 year???
I know I have had less problems so far than many - but if it gets worse I would like a replacement. Questions that make the decision to return are:
Is the second different than the first.
Do they have any more (sold out)
Is there a software fix comming?
Is the TIVO infringement problem a reason to not let them get their hands on the unit
I know you dont need this but -THEY ARE DIFFICULT TO DEAL WITH.
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post #3056 of 18488 Old 02-19-2009, 08:23 AM
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I also had been experiencing random reboots and Lockups with my unit. F202, updates disabled.

I no longer have a lockup or reboot problem anymore (8 days counting). I live in a small town on the edge of the portland oregon metro area and had entered my zip code for where I live. In this condition I experienced the reboots and lockups. When I changed the zipcode to the zip of the actual CBS broadcast station that is sending the TVGOS signal for my area, I no longer experienced lockups or reboots. Maybe this is just a coincidence. I'll keep monitoring it and let everyone know if the status changes. In both cases I was getting a full guide with the TVGuide logo. Maybe there is a software glitch with the zipcodes and how certain broadcast stations are transmitting the guide.
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post #3057 of 18488 Old 02-19-2009, 08:26 AM
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We've heard the warrantee controversy and the answer is muddled, eg nobody knows.

If DISH/Echo loses the lawsuit I doubt that would mean the end of PAL DVR. The sets would simply cost more.
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post #3058 of 18488 Old 02-19-2009, 09:17 AM
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I haven't posted in a while, but have been following things. I got my unit on 1/19 and had many problems in the first week or two, but have had only one reboot in the past couple weeks. The problems seemed to get much better after my area started broadcasting TVGOS data. I changed to a Samsung HDTV with an HDMI connection about the same time and have a lot less problems than I had with my old standard def set. Again, I don't know that there is any rhyme or reason, it's just my experience for what it's worth.
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post #3059 of 18488 Old 02-19-2009, 11:57 AM
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cspurling-

Do you get tvgos data for koin and opb beyond the 24 hour or so psip guide?
I do not in Beaverton using koin's zip.

Lew
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post #3060 of 18488 Old 02-19-2009, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lewlew View Post

cspurling-

Do you get tvgos data for koin and opb beyond the 24 hour or so psip guide?
I do not in Beaverton using koin's zip.

Lew

I'm also in Beaverton. KATU seems to provide the most guide data. I defintely don't get anything beyond 24 hours for KOIN.
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